Do Emergency Sirens Really Have to Be So Loud?

Summary

All Of It: Episode Summary – "Do Emergency Sirens Really Have to Be So Loud?"

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Ben Nadefrey, Senior Producer for Pushkin Industries
Release Date: May 8, 2025
Duration Covered: [00:28] – [09:36]

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Alison Stewart opens the episode by referencing recent events related to the "All Of It" book club and upcoming discussions. She smoothly transitions into the day’s primary topic: the loudness of emergency sirens in New York City and their effectiveness.

2. Guest Introduction and Motivation

Ben Nadefrey shares his personal connection to the topic:

“When my wife and I moved into this apartment, we were like, is this going to be loud? No, it's like, how many? Surely they don't use the siren all the time.”
[02:21]

Living across from a fire station in Brooklyn, Ben became increasingly aware of the frequency and intensity of emergency sirens. His background in podcasting and music heightened his sensitivity to these sounds, prompting him to delve deeper into understanding their impact and efficacy.

3. The Onset of the Investigation

Ben describes the inception of his research:

“I kept getting interrupted by sirens, and I was like, well, maybe I can just like, push this later into the evening... it got to the point where it was like 3am and I would still have sirens showing up on the recording.”
[03:27]

This persistent disturbance led him to question the necessity of such loud sirens and whether they genuinely aid in emergency responses or if they’re an outdated practice.

4. Personal Anecdotes and Community Impact

Ben introduces a charming yet pertinent anecdote involving a neighborhood dog:

“There's a dog in our neighborhood who howls every time, almost every time the siren goes off. I just thought, like, I need to meet this dog and understand why is he howling?”
[04:30]

This story serves to humanize (or canine-ize) the broader community response to sirens, highlighting that their impact extends beyond human listeners.

5. Methodology: Tracking Siren Frequency

To quantify his observations, Ben and his wife attempted to log siren occurrences:

“We should create a spreadsheet track every time the siren sounds, when do we hear the dog, and do we hear him from the front of the house or the back.”
[05:08]

Although their initial approach revealed the challenges in pinpointing exact sources due to building acoustics, it provided a foundation for understanding siren frequency, documenting approximately 24 siren sounds within a day.

6. Historical Context of Emergency Sirens

Ben delves into the evolution of sirens:

“The siren is effectively ancient technology... drivers shouting and then operating a gong with their right foot... pre-electromagnetic mechanical sirens.”
[07:06]

He traces the development from horse-drawn ambulances in the 19th century to motorized vehicles in the 20th century, emphasizing that while the technology has evolved, the fundamental purpose remains rooted in early emergency response practices.

7. Purpose and Functionality of Sirens

Discussing the operational theory behind sirens, Ben explains:

“The siren alerts the people ahead of you who might not be looking in their rearview mirror... it tells you that an ambulance is coming and needs you to clear the way.”
[08:30]

The loudness serves multiple functions:

• Alerting Drivers: Ensuring that even those not directly in the path are aware of the emergency vehicle.
• Localizing Sound: Helping drivers identify the direction and approach of the emergency vehicle.
• Preempting Traffic Behavior: Signaling that traffic laws may be temporarily overridden to facilitate swift passage.

8. Critical Evaluation of Current Practices

Ben raises questions about the efficacy and modern relevance of current siren practices:

“We have this sort of outdated notion of how this works that we continue to apply even though it doesn't really work the way we think it does.”
[07:06]

He challenges the assumption that louder sirens inherently lead to faster or more effective emergency responses, suggesting a need for reevaluation based on contemporary urban dynamics and technological advancements.

9. Community Engagement and Future Directions

Alison Stewart encourages listener participation by inviting first responders and residents to share their experiences and opinions on siren loudness and effectiveness. This call to action aims to broaden the discussion beyond the podcast, fostering a community-driven exploration of potential improvements or alternatives to current siren systems.

10. Conclusion

While the episode delves into historical contexts and personal anecdotes, it ultimately poses critical questions about the necessity and impact of loud emergency sirens in modern urban settings. Ben Nadefrey’s investigation highlights the balance between effective emergency response and community well-being, suggesting that while sirens play a crucial role, their implementation may benefit from reassessment in the context of today’s evolving city landscapes.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I'm way down the rabbit hole. I didn't even know there was such a rabbit hole.”
  — Ben Nadefrey
  [02:09]

• “This seems to be happening an awful lot and maybe an increasing amount, and it's really quite loud.”
  — Ben Nadefrey
  [03:20]

• “It's effectively ancient technology.”
  — Ben Nadefrey
  [07:06]

• “We have this sort of outdated notion of how this works that we continue to apply even though it doesn't really work the way we think it does.”
  — Ben Nadefrey
  [07:06]

---

For more discussions and to participate, listeners are encouraged to call WNYC at 212-433-9692.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance]

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Earlier this week at our April get lit with all of it book club event, we spoke to author Laila Lalmi about her new novel the Dream Hotel. And we heard a special live performance from Imal Nikanawa. It was a great time. And on tomorrow's show we'll play excerpts from that conversations. And because may it's time to start reading this month's book club pick, it's audition by Katie Kitamura. We'll be discussing the book on Thursday, May 29th at the library. Tickets are free, but they tend to go fast. So get yours now by heading to wnyc.org getlit Again, that's wnyc.org getlit that's in the future. But let's get this hour started. One of the defining sounds in New York, fire trucks and ambulances often use lights and sirens when responding to an emergency call. The idea is to clear traffic and provide care as fast as possible. It's called Running Hot. Ben Nadifrey is Seth's senior producer for Pushkin Industries. He lives in Brooklyn and across the street from a fire station. And you know what that means. Ben decided to look into why sirens are so loud in the first place and whether they actually save time during an emergency. He reported on what he discovered for a recent episode of the Revisionist History podcast and found out a whole bunch of things, including that siren usage in New York City has never really been studied. The episode is called Running Hot. Ben is with me now to discuss what he found. Welcome back to the show.

[Ben Nadefrey]

Thanks for having me on.

[Alison Stewart]

So just by listening to this episode, you are in deep.

[Ben Nadefrey]

Yeah.

[Progressive Insurance]

Oh no.

[Ben Nadefrey]

I'm way down the rabbit hole. I didn't even know there was such a rabbit hole.

[Alison Stewart]

Could you describe what you would hear on any night, any night in your house?

[Ben Nadefrey]

So it's a mix. There is a really distinctive sound for most fire trucks. It's called the federal Q2B siren, federal signal. That tends to be what they use. And then there's another sound for ambulance sirens. And I would say I hear a healthy mix of both of them. And it just always struck me, you know, when my wife And I moved into this apartment. We were like, is this going to be loud? No, it's like, how many? Surely they don't use the siren all the time.

[Alison Stewart]

I was going to ask, when you moved in, what were your questions about that?

[Ben Nadefrey]

That was my question. And then I sort of. We liked the apartment and we just sort of. We kind of ignored it. But, you know, I. I make podcasts, I'm a musician, I work a lot with my ears. And so it's just the kind of thing that I noticed. And I was like, this seems to be happening an awful lot and maybe an increasing amount, and it's really quite loud. And then I started looking into how loud and why it's so loud. And that's what I thought this piece was going to be about. But then it became about something sort of radically different.

[Progressive Insurance]

When did you decide that you were gonna research this? There must have been a day.

[Ben Nadefrey]

So there were two things. First, I remember I was just for fun, trying to record something in my house, and I. And I kept getting interrupted by sirens, and I was like, well, maybe I can just like, push this later into the evening. And it got to the point where it was like I was playing guitar, and I got to the point where it was like 3am and I would still have sirens showing up on the recording. And I was like, I guess that's just how it is. But that's sort of striking that I know there's no traffic right now. Why is the siren still sounding? So that was sort of part one, but part two was, there's a dog in our neighborhood who howls every time, almost every time the siren goes off. And this I found immensely charming. And I just thought, like. I was like, I need to meet this dog and understand why is he howling? How does he feel about the siren? And it's sort of. I knew. I was like, maybe that's a way to sort of explore this issue in a story. If I look for the dog, he can be some meaningful part of whatever conclusion I come to after researching this about why the sirens are the way they are.

[Progressive Insurance]

And in case people wondered, this is what the dog sounds like.

[Ben Nadefrey]

It would be like. It would be like 2am and you just hear, like, it was just so. So. And he sounded like a werewolf. I was like, what is this creature?

[Progressive Insurance]

It's almost like he was making fun of the siren.

[Ben Nadefrey]

Yeah. Well, yes. Why? Why is he howling? That's what I wanted to understand.

[Progressive Insurance]

So you and your wife decided to make a spreadsheet?

[Ben Nadefrey]

Yes. Yes.

[Progressive Insurance]

Explain to Us, the spreadsheet and what you learned from looking at it all laid out in front of you.

[Ben Nadefrey]

Well, I think any good piece of research begins by totally just flailing around haplessly. And that was our flailing moment. So I felt that in order to find this dog, I needed to first understand if he was on the street north of me or south of me. And so I was. Well, then we should create a spreadsheet track. Every time the siren sounds, when do we hear the dog, and do we hear him from the front of the house or the back of the house? So I thought this was going to help us figure out where exactly he was. And then it turned out that basically you can't distinguish between if it's the front of the house or the back of the house, he's loud enough, you can hear him on both, or maybe more. It's a smaller apartment. So this was not particularly useful for those purposes. But we did learn that in a. It was less than 24 hours, but it was about 24. Sirens sounding in the course of the day.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Maybe you've worked as a first responder. What do you get when you get an emergency call? How often are you running hot? Do you think the siren makes your response faster or more effective? Or do you think there's a future where sirens can be used more strategically? Our number is 212433, WNYC. 212-433-9692. Or maybe you live near a fire station or. Or a police precinct and you hear sirens. How loud is the volume of the siren? How will it affect you when you pass it on the street, when you're in your living room, when you're living your life? Give us a call. 212-433-969-2212, wnyc. My guest is Ben Nadef Henfrey. Sorry. You warned me. That's a hard one, Ben. Nadef Huffrey, senior producer for Pushkin Industries. We're talking about a new episode Ben reported for the podcast Revisionist History. It's called Running Hot. Ben looked into why emergency vehicles sirens are so loud. Can we do a little who, what, where, when, why? Of sirens?

[Ben Nadefrey]

Absolutely.

[Alison Stewart]

When did they become part of emergency equipment?

[Ben Nadefrey]

So the. Some. So the siren is. It's. This is part of what's so interesting. It is like, it is effectively ancient technology. Like, we had sirens before we had ambulances, modern EMS and paramedic services. Like, this is an old thing. And I think that's part of where this argument goes is it's, we have this sort of outdated notion of how this works that we continue to apply even though it doesn't really work the way we think it does. But there were. New York actually had some of the first ambulances in the country in the 19th century. And they were horse drawn, obviously sort of spring loaded to cushion the transport of the patient. But the siren equivalent they had was drivers shouting and then operating a gong with their right foot. So this was like pre electromagnetic mechanical sirens. But those came pretty early in the 20th century and especially once we transferred over to motorized vehicles, you have, you can see video of, of the equivalent of a fire truck then responding to scenes with bells ringing and sirens sounding from the 1920s. So it's been around for a while, but obviously it really took off after EMS became a real thing in this country.

[Progressive Insurance]

Yes. This might sound like an obvious question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What is the working theory about why sirens are effective?

[Ben Nadefrey]

So, yeah, it's so obvious that it is not a question that I asked when I started this. I was just like, do they need to be so loud? And then I was like, wait a minute, do they make any sense at all? Kind of the theory is that you have a mission. You have to get to someone as quickly as possible. But between you and that person, there's quite a lot of traffic and especially in York City. And so what you do with the siren is it, it alerts the people ahead of you who might not be looking in their rearview mirror to see your lights that you are coming. So it needs to be an easy to localize sound. And there's some question of whether or not the siren we have is so easy to localize, but it tells you that an ambulance is coming and needs you to clear the way. It also notifies you they're going to be breaking traffic laws.

[Progressive Insurance]

Okay.

[Ben Nadefrey]

And it also, because you can, it's so loud, you hear it from far away. It can theoretically alert people at the next intersection. Be careful because someone's going to be blowing through this intersection shortly. So that is the function of the siren. It's to do all those things because there's this assumption that every 911 call needs to be addressed immediately.

[Progressive Insurance]

I have to ask you to hold because we have just learned that the new Pope is an American. He is from Chicago. We are now going to go to NPR's special coverage.

[Ira Flatow]

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship wnyc. Org.