B (3:00)

On the documentary, I knew probably, I'd say not a lot, probably more than the average person, but still pretty very much. I would still go into a cheese store. Totally not knowing what to get or having much context for any of it. I feel like the cheesemongers themselves were a great surprise that I discovered over the course of making this film. In that almost every cheesemonger you talk to is going to be one of the most interesting people you've ever met. I mean, a lot of them have come from different fields. There is someone in the film who actually has a PhD in German literature. There's people who come from. There's people who come from punk backgrounds. There's people that run all over the sort of spectrum of life experience. And a lot of people in cheese, they're just so knowledgeable and they're just so happy to talk your head off and really nerd out with you about the story behind every cheese. So it was, you know, I kind of went into the film knowing that Adam was going to have a great story, that the story of cheese itself was very interesting. But I think meeting all the cheesemongers and learning about all their stories was just an equally as fascinating. And, you know, it's a continuing conversation. I'm still meeting cheesemongers that I'm like, oh, man, I could do a whole documentary about you too, you know. So, yeah, they're just incredible people. If you ever talk to your local cheesemonger.

A (4:32)

Lot of tats. A lot of tats among young cheese makers. Mongers.

B (4:37)

Yes. Yeah. And I, you know, we just happened to focus on, you know, a couple people, I think actually a couple of them have matching Mu Bama tattoos, which is, you know, but yeah, I've never seen more cheese themed tattoos in my life.

A (4:56)

Bigger picture question. Part of it is this goal for this sort of these Olympics of cheese. But you get into the history of it and why do American cheesemongers not have the same reputation abroad?

B (5:15)

Yeah, so, you know, I think that in a lot of places, you know, I mean, I'm thinking about France specifically. You know, cheese is really a big part of their culture. Just even growing up, it's everywhere. You know, you can kind of walk into these kinds of cheese shops in. And they're just much more common in France. And so I think that for a lot of people, and again, I'm talking about France specifically, they've really grown up kind of knowing about this and knowing that this is like a thing to be like cherished and Respected. I think in America that awareness is actually much more recent that America has great cheese too. Blocks of cheddar are great, but cheese that really goes beyond that within the last few decades has really been a new thing, really. I think that abroad there is a growing recognition of Americans having great. Not just great cheese mongers, but also great cheeses. And I think within America that recognition is really growing as well.

A (6:20)

My guest is director Sarah Jolensky. We're talking about her documentary the Big Cheese, which follows a group of cheesemongers trying to become the first Americans to win the top prize at the most prestigious cheese competition in the world. The Big Cheese will screen on Wednesday night at 9:15 as part of DOC NYC and and will include a Q and A with Sarah and subject Adam Moskowitz. How did the Cheesemonger Invitational begin?

B (6:49)

So it began because Adam wanted to throw a party in his warehouse. And I think at the time he was working with his dad and his dad said no. And so Adam said, oh, sorry, not a party, like a cheese monger competition. And so it really kind of grew from there. And one of the things that was so interesting to me about this story is that when it grew, it was this super scrappy, basically almost. I mean, it was like a warehouse party and there was a lot of drinking and partying. And while there's still definitely a scrappiness to it, especially compared to the French competition, and it's definitely a lot looser and more, dare I say, more fun, it's kind of the story of this cheese growing recognition of cheese mongers themselves as real professionals and people who have all this knowledge that deserves respect and praise. So, yeah, to me, it was also the story of the evolution of the Cheesemonger Invitational kind of going from warehouse party to I think most recent iterations were all at Brooklyn Steel.

A (8:06)

So Adam is a big personality. As we've mentioned, we've had him on the show talking all things cheese and he describes his family as a cheese mafia. What's his family legacy?

B (8:19)

I think he specifically said they were not the cheese mafia, but then he.

A (8:23)

Said they were the cheese mafia, but.

B (8:24)

Then he said they weren't cheese mafia, not real mafia. But yeah, he's a third generation cheesemonger and both his grandfather and father were really influential in bringing cheese to the United States. And a lot of what Adam does is he's almost like a cheese tastemaker. So he'll go to places, discover cheese and find ways to bring them into the US So he's often literally not just through Cultural means, but also literal means, bringing cheese to the United States that weren't previously available. I think he said that when his grandfather was originally in the business, the best specialty cheese you could buy was in the basement of Macy's. So really kind of working to bring these cheeses to America and in a way that regular people can enjoy them.

A (9:19)

We get into Adam's story that he made his first million at 23, and then he lost his first million at 25 in the tech industry. And it becomes clear he's kind of a make or break kind of guy, which is something which can be attributed to addiction. And he gets very candid in the documentary about his addiction. What did he share with you about his mental health and his decision to achieve sobriety?

B (9:47)

Yeah, so I will say Adam's someone who's been very, very open about this, not just to me, but also generally. I think he's even gone on stage at Cheesemonger Invitational and kind of told portions of the story to hundreds of people in the crowd. But, yeah, the first time Adam and I met, I think we shared a glass of tea, and he told me all about this story. And I think that that's one thing that I really appreciated as far as his own openness. But also, when you are making a documentary, you're really making something very public that's often a very private part of people's lives. And so I think the fact that Adam has been so open about this journey and has sort of wanted to share this story so that others, you know, can take what they want from it is something that made me feel really good about making the film, both about him and with him. Just that I. He's someone who I knew was very comfortable in sharing all of this.

A (10:51)

My guest is Sarah Jo Wolensky. We're talking about her new documentary, the Big Cheese, which follows a group of cheesemongers trying to become the first Americans to win the top prize at the most prestigious cheese competition in the world. It's part of Doc nyc. How did you find the competitors that you wanted to follow in the process, beyond the two that are selected to go to France?

B (11:14)

Yeah, well, kind of a fun thing about making this documentary was actually that, you know, a lot of documentaries, you're casting everyone in the film and for this, you know, we were really. We were actually really the people who won CMI Masters, which is sort of this almost Olympic trials to proceed to the Cheese Olympics. We were pretty much going to make main characters of whoever won that competition. So basically, I had interviewed Everyone who competed, a number of them are featured in the film. There's also other ones who had amazing stories, even really get featured, even for a brief interview. So really it was pre interviewing everyone. I tried to have some off camera time with. I think everyone in the competition was able to connect with beforehand and kind of figure out if this person wins this competition, what could their story be. If this person wins, what can that story be? And so I already had a sense of 50 different permutations of what this film could be about depending on who got picked. So, yeah, it was, you know, it was kind of a weird documentary moment in, you know, finding out that Courtney and Sam had won because it's sort of like this big unknown for this story is now this, you know, question of. And sorry, mild spoilers for people who haven't seen the film. But, you know, it was kind of figuring out what our story was going to be about beyond Adam and beyond the competition.

A (12:47)

It was very funny because everyone is initially scared of Lilith. Spencer pronouns they, them and people call them a legend and you expect to meet this really intense person and then they are sort of reserved and unassuming. What makes Lilith a silent assassin? And is that their real name?

B (13:13)

So, yeah, so going in, definitely everyone really thought that Lilith was the front runner. I mean, you know, again, we did dozens of other interviews that day and I think every single person had mentioned Lilith in some capacity. Lilith had just been really, really influential in creating the kind of modern cheese boards that you see on Instagram. These big, like bold, colorful platter. And I think a lot of the cheese Instagrams you see, for those people who follow cheese Instagram accounts, a lot of them have really taken influence from Lilith and the way that they've kind of conceptualized the way that these platters look and feel. So Lilith is just someone also that I think is very well liked within CHEESE and someone who everyone really, really respects a lot. So, yeah, definitely, everyone really. And Lilith had also competed at Mondial before, so definitely I think everyone thought that Lilith was a shoo in. But, you know, live events, things don't always go the way they planned. And, you know, I think Lilith knew that they had messed up a little bit too. But I think that Lilith was also earnestly, very, very interested and happy to serve as a coach for the team. And that sort of mentorship and helping others was something that they had also talked a lot about. So, you know, while it was disappointing in the moment to not be picked on the team, I think that they were also really, really happy to contribute in this way and make this their role going in.

A (14:47)

Let's talk about the Mondial in France. It looks a little more stuffy than the American competition. How would you describe the vibe?

B (14:57)

The vibe? Well, I do want to mention that it was September and maybe pushing 100 degrees every single day. And if, if you've ever been to France, you would know that nothing's air conditioned. Even things that say that they're air conditioned are not by American standards. So if you imagine walking into this room and just being hit with this overpowering smell of cheese, I feel like the sort of smells and the temperature are something you can't always capture on screen. But yeah, I would say there's definitely a seriousness to feels very buttoned up. And I mean literally buttoned up. Like your outfit needs to be buttoned up and, you know, cleanly pressed or whatever. And yeah, though I do want to say, you know, even in this more buttoned up environment, like, all the cheesemongers are pretty friendly and supportive of each other, despite the fact that this is a little bit less of a party, a little bit more like, seriously, you know, than the Cheesemonger Invitational is. But yeah, there's just a. I mean, it's like cheese people from all over the world are there. It was really, really interesting talking to some of the international cheese mongers too. Not just people from, you know, Europe and stuff, but, I mean, like, in particular, the Japanese cheese mongers were really interesting, just talking to them about the emerging cheese culture there. There was a cheese monger from Ukraine who had, you know, a story of how cheese was really bring to her community. And yeah, it was just. It was really interesting to just meet all these people with all these different experiences who had been coming at cheese from so many different international perspectives.

A (16:44)

What were some of the different categories that people had to compete in at the Mondial?

B (16:50)

Yeah, so there's basically, there's a number of different groupings of categories. One of them is an oral presentation where the cheesemongers have to cut up cheese, present it to the judges, and then serve it along with a five minute story about the cheese, what it pairs best with all sorts of flavor notes. So that actually is probably the component that's maybe most similar to what you would actually encounter if you're going to a cheese store and talking to someone at the counter. There was a cut to weight competition where they have to cut a cheese to a specific weight without using a scale. There is a blind tasting component where they have to guess the Name the age, the country of origin, the manufacturing type. The milk and the cheese is cut without the rind, which makes it really challenging because the rind is most often used to identify cheese. There's also a sculpture and a plateau, which is not like a cheese sculpture, like, you know, your butter carving competition of a cow or something, but something that looks really elegant and elevated. And it's almost a bit like catering in a way, like something that you could serve at, I don't know, a ball or something. This giant spread of cheese that has to look appetizing. There's a cheese plate competition. There's also a pairing that they do and some cheese transformation. So it's a lot of. There's a. I mean, a written test. So it's a lot of different components they're being evaluated on. And so, yeah, it's a pretty intense competition to train for, just because there's so many things and a lot of the elements, like, you know, we don't normally have big, elegant cheese plateaus in the United States, so a lot of the elements feel actually a little bit dissimilar from what a cheesemonger in the US at least, would typically be doing at a counter. So a lot of definitely training for new things.

A (18:58)

How do you hope that people who watch the documentary might change how they think about the cheese they eat or that. That they buy?

B (19:06)

Yeah, so. Well, you know, what we're really, really hoping that the doc does is make someone walk out of it and say, wow, I should go to a cheese store and talk to my local cheesemonger. It's just, I think that people don't quite realize that a cheesemonger is not just a person who's, you know, cutting it and handing it to you and say, here. But they can really take you on this whole sensory journey when you're buying the cheese. You know, they know all about the history and the flavor. And just in the same way, I think the closest comparison is like, a sommelier. Like, there's someone who can really make the cheese feel alive for you. And what we're really hoping that people walk away from the dock doing is, you know, thinking about how they're purchasing cheese differently. You know, cheese can be quite expensive, but if you're really taking the time to savor it in the same way that you might savor a glass of wine, it's something that can be just as special. And, you know, it's a living thing. And we're really, really hoping that people get to know their local cheesemonger all.

A (20:12)

Right, what's your favorite cheese? After working on this for so long.

B (20:17)

You know, I feel like I'm going to have a different answer to this every single time I get asked. I would say that the cheese that I would love to bring to Thanksgiving, since that's coming up, is a cheese called out Blossom, which it's just visually stunning. It's this very sort of fragrant cheese that is actually coated in a blend of dried edible flowers and it's just sort of floral while also being juxtaposed by this sort of like umami past interior. That's one that I definitely love and almost always bring to gatherings, honestly, just because it looks cool. And then the other one I really have to say is that I was lucky enough to experience over making the doc is having Parmigiano Reggiano from a freshly cracked wheel. The little piece that falls out. I think one of the mongers said it was called a quote monger tax because it's the most delicious part.

A (21:14)

It sounds so great. The film is called the Big Cheese. It'll screen Wednesday night at 9:15 as part of DOC NYC. My guest has been Sarah Jo Wolanski. Sarah Jo Wolanski, thanks for being with us.

B (21:27)

Thank you so much.

A (21:31)

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