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- [00:09]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Welcome back to the show. I'm grateful you're joining us this Christmas Eve and here at Team all of It. We're grateful that you join us all year round. We're grateful when you listen, when you call in, and when you participate with us on our socials. Toward the end of the year, we traditionally revisit some of our favorite discussions from the past year. Today, we're sharing conversations with the musicians that seem to have really struck a chord with the folks who engage with us on Instagram. And so to that end, let's get into another hour of music with the Doobie Brothers.
- [00:48]
B
He came from somewhere Back in How long ago Santa met the fool don't see Trying hard to recreate what had yet to be created. Once in her life she musters a smile for his nostalgic tale Never coming near what he wanted to say Only to realize it never really was she had a place in his life.
- [01:34]
A
What a Fool believes is a timeless classic and one of the best examples of what makes the Doobie Brothers a timeless band. It's just one of the many hits the Doobies have written over the years, which got them inducted into the Songwriters hall of Fame earlier this year. Michael McDonald has rejoined the band for their latest album called Walk this Road. Let's listen to the title track.
- [02:30]
B
What will be will be the bride will lead us on. We don't have much.
- [02:41]
A
This summer, we were joined by Doobie's Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McPhee and Patrick Simmons for a listening party. I started by asking Michael to talk about the inspiration for that title track.
- [02:55]
C
Well, John Shanks was the title he had and he. One of the. It was probably, I think, the second thing I wrote with him. And for the album, he expressed an interest in writing something that would be kind of focused on the band's long relationship and the fact that we were, you know, had been together so long and doing another album, you know, which seemed like a great idea. But as we started to write it, I think it became obvious to both of us that it had a potential to be a more universal kind of idea of the fact that as a humanity, we're all stuck on this little blue ball spinning through space and that we should really look at what we have in common more than we would do better to think of what we have in common rather than what we disagree on. So it just kind of became about that. And then, of course, having Mavis join us on it was, you know, unbelievable, organic, you Know the way it happened. I don't know that any of us really know who asked her. She just kind of.
- [04:06]
A
Mavis Staples just showed up one day.
- [04:08]
C
Yeah, she just appeared and what better ambassador for, you know, that message, you know.
- [04:14]
D
Yeah.
- [04:14]
A
John, what did Mavis Staples bring to the song?
- [04:18]
E
Wow.
- [04:19]
F
Well, one of the greatest voices of all time, for starters. But like Michael was saying, too, though, with her history with the Staples singers and everything, she really. They really pioneered songs about togetherness and, you know, trying to work together for a better future. And so she brought a whole history of that.
- [04:44]
A
Tom, what did you think Mavis Staples brought to the track?
- [04:46]
E
I've been a fan of Mavis Staple for a long time. Became aware of her, of course, through her family, Staples singers, who I loved and was listening to them in the late 60s, I guess. First time I really heard about them. Mavis has done a lot of work on her own as well. The album she did with Prince, to me, was standout Killer. Really dug it. But she's just a great presence, like Mike said. I think she and the family were the embodiment of social consciousness. I guess you would say something that we need right now in a big, big way. So bringing her in, plus the sound of her voice, I mean, it's instantly recognizable. Bang. That's Mavis. She only one who sounds like that. So it was a plus all the way around.
- [05:31]
A
I want to pick up on what Michael said with you, Patrick. The idea that this song says walk this road with me. Why is that an important message for people to hear during these sort of uncertain times?
- [05:43]
G
Well, kind of obvious, probably, listeners out there, that what's happening in the world. We are so divided at this point in our history. It's more important than ever, I think, to, you know, let people know that we're all sort of in this together, whether you like it or not. You know, it's one world and you better wake up because, you know, we have a long way to go, hopefully, knock wood. And, you know, if. If we don't pull it together as a. A species, then, you know, we're putting ourselves in. In greater jeopardy than ever. So, you know, it's important. You know, I think a lot of people feel this way, obviously, but, you know, maybe it's not being said that much in. In music these days. And, you know, it doesn't really matter exactly what position you're coming from, because in reality, we all have to walk this road together. I will add that, you know, this song is really kind of our. To me, the first time I ever heard the track, I thought this is the kind of song that really makes sense for a band like ours. It's really gospel, roots gospel kind of music. And then having Mavis sing on it. You know, to me.
- [07:25]
E
One of her.
- [07:25]
G
Greatest great strengths, the whole family, was their dedication to gospel music. And she really brought that voice to the track. And, you know, I just want to add that in there.
- [07:38]
A
Anyway, that's so interesting. You called it roots gospel. The kind of music that you make. Has it always been that way?
- [07:46]
G
To a certain degree. You know, we've. I think that's an influence that we have. Not that we're, you know, hardcore Baptists or anything, but I think we have all observed the, you know, spiritual music and gospel in. In, you know, maybe a more southern kind of a representation. So, you know, to me, that's a part of our. Of who we are. You know, we're really a blues based band, I think, you know, and I think gospel music is maybe at the root of all of that. You know, I think maybe it predates blues. It maybe is blues gosp music kind of was the voice of blues as we know it. I think.
- [08:40]
A
When I say blues to you, what does that mean, Michael?
- [08:44]
C
It means the one true form of American music, jazz, blues, gospel. You know, I think it's probably one of the greatest gifts to. If there is a culture in America, because we are a melting pot, you know, la marea humana, you know, the human tide is as natural as the birds migrating south for the winter. And probably something we should think more in terms of managing and accommodating rather than trying to forbid or, you know, blockade. Because it's what we are as human beings. It's what we do naturally. That's why we were. We got up on two legs in the first place, you know, is to move, you know, and to migrate. And I think we bring something greater than ourselves when we do that. You know, this country, you know, I mean, if you were going to really boil it all down to who has a right to be here, you know, as far as the, you know, African American influence on our culture, it's probably one of the greatest influences on our culture. Things that we think of as American, you know, our music, our arts, you know, that's truly ours, you know, comes from the African American culture. But the indigenous people were already here. The African people didn't choose to come here. The Spanish were here 100 years before us. So the only real invaders are all us Europeans who came over. So if you're going to have a problem with that. You know, you got to start there.
- [10:18]
G
You know, I think early rock musicians recognized that there was something greater to be drawn from music by putting together the two basic American art musical forms. One being gospel, blues, the other being country, maybe more Anglican mountain music. And people like Elvis Presley, you know, Jerry Lee Lewis, they saw that. And, you know, they were white guys who saw the value in, you know, blues and gospel and married that into that Anglican country form that they were kind of grew up on and invent really, in a way, invented a new music with Little Richard and Fats Domino and Chuck Berry, people like that. And that's the music kind of that we still celebrate.
- [11:23]
C
I think cross pollinization, like Pat said, is what our essence is as musicians and just as Americans, you know what we are.
- [11:32]
A
I'm gonna get your take on this for people who are listening. Who should they go out to? What blues musicians should they, after this interview's over, take a listen to. You've got good taste, I can tell.
- [11:45]
E
I thought you said take a listen as in a song.
- [11:47]
B
No, no.
- [11:48]
A
Who should they listen to?
- [11:50]
E
So you're asking me? Yeah, sorry, I'm space. I didn't sleep last night. I listened to a lot of blues growing up a lot. Mostly electric, but I got into acoustic blues and stuff when I was in college. But you know, the Three Kings, first of all, Freddy Albert and Bebe, listen to them a lot. Listened to James Cotton a lot. Listened to. I'm not gonna come up with everything I want right now. But a lot of really great musicians and got to meet some of them, which was truly earth shaking for me because I listened to them so much. And meeting them later on when we actually started doing something musically and you're kind of on the same platform, so to speak, it was outrageous, I bet. And you know, there's great guys, man, good people and their music. It's hard to go up to somebody and say, man, your music really changed my life. But it did. So I learned a lot from that kind of music and R and B as well. Listened to a lot of R and B and Little Richard was a huge influence. So all that stuff kind of melds together. I listened to some Elvis too early on. But I think that's an important thing to bring up because there's so many influences in modern music today. And there was back then, but we kind of. This band brings all that together along with what Pat mentioned. I call it Americana now because that's an easy cover to cover. A lot of different styles, and you add that to gospel, blues, rock and roll, and stick it all together and acoustic stuff as well, and you kind of get the Doobie Brothers with harmonies.
- [13:30]
A
My guests are the doobie brothers, Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McPhee, and Patrick Simmons. They're here for a listening party for their new album, Walk this Road. Let's play another track from this song. We're gonna play Here to Stay. The vocals come in without instrumentation. What went into that decision? Who wants to take that?
- [13:48]
E
I think John went into that decision. John Shanks, our producer, that was. He kind of did that in the studio when nobody was there. He snuck it in there. He's like. He called me back. He said, what do you think about this? Yeah, go for it, man. And we tried it, and it sounds. It's pretty cool.
- [14:04]
A
Take a listen to Here to Stay.
- [14:06]
B
Yeah, I'm riding wild horses Grab the reins and fly away Lost in rock and roll heaven and you know that it's here to. Welcome to the spotlight and A thousand shades of red Here to play my music there's so much to be said oh, baby I'm lost inside a daydream I'm living in the sound.
- [15:08]
E
Still right.
- [15:09]
B
Here believing so don't bring me down and you should know here's the reason.
- [15:18]
A
Why yeah, I'm riding wild horses I call that. You're in the car and you roll the windows down when you hear that song.
- [15:28]
E
That's a plus.
- [15:29]
A
That is a plus. When you go back into the studio, how do you keep things creative? It would be really easy for you to go in, record an album. You've done this a million times. John, how do you keep things creative?
- [15:45]
F
Well, I think for this band, it's always been about trying to find new ways to express things and.
- [15:55]
C
You know.
- [15:57]
F
Like, what's being discussed earlier. This group draws on a lot of different styles and elements, and so there's. It makes getting creative interesting because you can go, well, what if you did this? And instead of, you know, like, Pat asked me to play fiddle on a song or whatever it might be, it changes the direction a little bit. And there's just a lot of different ways you can approach any song. But it's, you know, it starts with the material, and you've got to have something to say and try to find a unique way to say it.
- [16:30]
A
How do you stay creative, Pat?
- [16:33]
G
Oh, geez, I don't smoke a lot of pot. No, I'm kidding. No, you know, it's just. How do you stay creative? Good Question. You know, I think it's. You have to dedicate yourself to the process of doing that. It's not. Not something that you're going to sit around and go, okay, I have this flash of inspiration. It's like, you know, you got to go in there like. Like you want it, you know, like you want something, you want to create. You. I don't want to say it's like a job, because it's not a job, but it's a dedication to a process. You know, you have to go, okay, now I want to write a song. How do I. How do I. How am I going to do that? Well, you have to, you know, work at it. You find yourself. For me, it's always been. And I think it's probably the same for all of us. You find that place that you're comfortable, you sit down with your instrument, and you begin to, you know, explore and experiment until you maybe find a melody or a riff or something that you like. Sometimes it's, you know, you're watching television, or you're reading a newspaper or something, and you see a phrase, and that's inspiring, and then that points you in another direction, or you hear a song from somebody else's tune, and you go, oh, I'd love to write a song like that. And, you know, you. You. But you have to be. Leave yourself open to it and. And explore it, you know, work at it a little bit. Right.
- [18:12]
A
Is that the same for you, Michael, that you have to. You have to be open to the world to stay creative?
- [18:17]
C
You do. You know, it's like you come in with the tools in your toolbox that you have developed over the years, but hopefully that you hope will lead you to something you haven't done before, like Pat said, and you have to be open for that. You know, it's funny, that whole songwriting journey, probably not that long ago, I can remember having the thought in my car somewhere, like, I wonder if I'll ever write another song. I don't even know if I can do that anymore. And then, you know, the next thing you know, we're in the middle of the studio writing songs, and. And then you get that thing going that you haven't experienced in a while, and you start to kind of just get started, and the record's over, and you're going, wow, why don't we keep going? Because I might actually come up with something even. But you have to know when to quit. And I think what it did do for all of us is open the possibility or present the Potential possibility to maybe do another record and see where we could go with that, you know, which is not something I saw coming or any of us did. I don't think we started out doing an ep, you know, and it turned into an album. And so I think we all kind of share the idea that it would be fun to try to do another one, you know, and try some different approaches to that, you know?
- [19:38]
A
Did you get writer's block or were you joking there?
- [19:42]
C
No, I always get writer's block.
- [19:43]
A
Really?
- [19:43]
C
I mean, well, you know, there are those moments where you kind of get something going in your head and you start to kind of. Like, you can't put ideas down fast enough. But then there are those long dry periods where you wonder if you'll ever do it again, you know, And I've had plenty of those, you know, thank.
- [20:01]
G
Goodness for cell phones. Yes.
- [20:03]
C
No kidding.
- [20:04]
A
You know, technology. It's true. That's the good side of technology.
- [20:06]
E
Really.
- [20:07]
G
It really helps.
- [20:09]
A
You're listening to my conversation with the Doobie Brothers, who joined us for a listening party for their new album, Walk this Road. We'll be back in a minute with more music. This is all of it. This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Let's get back into my conversation with Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McPhee, and Patrick Simmons, aka the Doobie Brothers, who joined me over the summer to talk about their new album, Walk this Road. We're about to hear a little bit of the song Learn to Let Go. But before we hear it, I asked Michael McDonald to talk about the origin of that track.
- [20:55]
C
That was one of the, you know, I always, you know, fear the. You know, when I moved to Nashville, people would say, hey, come on down to Music Row. We'll write a song, you know, and, like, for me, I always wanted to have something already started so I could play, you know, hopefully. Because the idea of sitting in a room cold with someone and not coming up with anything scared me to death, you know, but those are some of my most fond memories of just making myself do it, you know, braving the situation. And that was one of those. With John, he had a little bit of an idea for something that we kind of went past and came up with, Learn to Let Go with no idea what we were going to write. But, you know, it was just. It kind of developed on the moment. And the beauty about writing in that situation at John's studio was you would write the song and you'd be building the track within an hour that you were going to Actually play for the rest of the band and everybody would join in on. So it was one of those songs that kind of came from a starting cold and it kind of presented itself, which is always the best kind of song. We always say to each other the songs that write themselves are the best ones. And that was kind of one of those, I think.
- [22:19]
A
Let's hear Learn to Let Go from the album Walk this Road.
- [22:30]
B
When you look back on alone and how they came to an end. You say you'll never wanna need anything that much you get lonely. Cause when it feels so good it's hard to see the writing on the wall. Flying higher on love only makes for longer fall. But you gotta keep. Till a memory sets you free. When you lose that love this world may keep on turning. When it's just gonna keep on hurting Till you lo the light go baby sweet red cool what you looking? Let go B Use your hand till your heart can fall.
- [23:45]
A
That's the Doobie Brothers from their album Walk this Road. Okay, Tom, this one's for you. We've heard about John Shanks a lot. How would you describe John Shanks production style?
- [24:00]
E
John is like a studio cat, man. He's studio quality guitar player. And it doesn't matter what style. Pretty much he's really, really good. Writing. With John, you mean, or just in the studio?
- [24:11]
A
In the studio.
- [24:14]
E
It'S fast. Things get done in a hurry. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's very efficient when you come. I always describe it this way to everybody. When you come in that house, basically, it's all about being in a studio as well as a place to write. You take a ride and you go into the writing room and you sit down. There's a computer there and there's some ideas you get with guitars. Or he's got a keyboard that he plays, whatever. And you get the idea fleshed out there. And you send that down to the studio, which is downstairs, and you go down there and it's all pro tools. It's all laid out, what you did up there, because it's all done with timing and all that. And then you started, you know, really going to the bones of the song, what it's about, what it's going to. You've already got the chord changes, but you're starting to go for some instrumentation. You do the lead vocal early to give the song direction, I guess. And it's. It's a pretty interesting way to work. And then you bring in the drummer because so far you're Using a machine. Right. And then you bring in a real drummer and that adds something to any track pretty much. And bass comes in a little later. And as the song presents itself lyrically and you put backgrounds on it and different ideas, then the song builds and you get the finished product, which may get changed midstream and did on a couple of songs. You just completely turn it around and go to a different direction. Even though you're still keeping the basic idea. But the chord changes even changed a little bit.
- [25:40]
A
You're good with that. Is that something?
- [25:42]
E
That was fine. There's two songs like that I can think of that I was involved with. And it was all for the better. More of an experimentation thing. And tried different techniques of guitar playing. Different. This is another thing John's really good for. What if we did this? What if we did that? And you always hear that when you're in the recording process, but just coming up with a guitar line and a different attitude and bringing the drums back to redo the drums and it really changed the whole feel of the song. There's one song in particular I'm thinking about, but there's actually two that that occurred on Call Me was like that and New Orleans was really like that. We completely refaced that whole thing.
- [26:21]
A
It's been interesting hearing you talk. I've heard you say openness, experimentation. It sounds like that's become really important to you. Patrick.
- [26:31]
G
Relentless. Slave driver I think is a better term. Nah, you know, it's. Recording is fun. It's supposed to be fun. And you know, whatever we do with it, I think that's what we're looking for as much as anything. It's, for want of a better word. It's a stimulating process. It's one of those things that when you're working on stuff, if you get something, find something that you're happy with. It just brightens up your whole outlook and that's kind of the whole thing. It's. It's. It's a high really of its own making, you know, when it's something we always dreamed of. I think, you know, when we started out, there was no home studio or home recording. If you were going to.
- [27:28]
E
There was a basement though.
- [27:30]
G
If you wanted to record something, it was a reel to reel tape recorder. My father was a school principal and he used to borrow tape recorder and bring it home and you know, I'd tape on it. The first time I ever heard my voice, I go, that's not me.
- [27:43]
E
Who is? What is that?
- [27:46]
G
No, that's how your Voice sounds. I go, no, that can't be. That's not my voice. But that's how, you know, we started. We didn't really have that advantage. And then, you know, when you get into a recording studio, it's like, this is a dream come true. You have multiple tracks. You know, all that you've ever imagined about a band expands into this, you know, symphonic view of creativity. And you start to understand, oh, that's how the Beatles made these records sound so great. That's how George Martin did it. We never knew that. You know, we just imagined, oh, yeah, they have this room full of an orchestra and all these guys playing instruments and it all. That's not how records, modern records are made. You know, you have start with a basic track, and then you build on it. And they, you know, George Martin, in a certain sense, and a few others, obviously, he wasn't the only one. But they invented modern recording. Les Paul, you know, stacking tracks on one another. And it was a dream come true. And that's, you know, now with pro tools and digital recording, it's like you can literally hundreds of tracks. And bands do that. They just keep. Probably bans us. You know, you keep laying tracks on to make things sound good, and then you can take things away as well as put things on. So you have this freedom that's just. It's unimaginable. And I know anyone listening out there that has a home recording setup understands what I'm talking about. It's a dream come true for. For musicians these days to be able to create in such a way that gives you this freedom, and it's so much fun, you know.
- [29:41]
A
All right, I'm gonna ask a journalist 101 question. You were inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of fame in 2020, on June 12, you're gonna be inducted to the Songwriters hall of Fame. Michael, what happened? When did you hear the news?
- [29:55]
C
Not that long ago. It was a couple. Like, a couple months ago maybe. And we're all, you know, I can speak for everybody. We were very excited, you know, at the prospect of being considered among some of the people that have won that award and going all the way back to some of the great writers who. Some of them who started these guilds that, you know, afforded us a living wage in our. During our time. You know, these are the guys that. That kind of built the whole business around songwriting, you know, and so to be, you know, thought of in the category with those guys, not just for their wonderful, beautiful songs, but their awareness of what it could mean, you know, to all of us later, you know, is quite an honor, you know, even with, like, with the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, to be counted among the people that we grew up admiring and, you know, imagining what it was like to be in the studio when those records were made, you know, and that magic moment of, you know, when Little Richard actually made those records and just, you know, how exciting that must be to have been in those audiences early on in the 50s, you know, it's kind of almost like something we never really saw coming, you know, in our lifetime, but a terrific honor, privilege, you know.
- [31:22]
A
We're going to go out on one more song from your album, Walk this Road. We're going to go out on State of Grace. Anybody want to tell us anything we should listen for in this song you think is important in this song?
- [31:37]
G
You know, it's probably a theme, maybe that runs through a lot of the songs on this record. Redemption. I mean, I always use that word, but it's, you know, the idea that no matter how far you fall, you can still pick yourself up and move forward, and whatever mistakes you've made, you can rectify those mistakes and come back from them and be a better person. And I think that's the really the idea. And find through that, find an inner peace that, you know, is important, especially as, you know, with folks in our age bracket, you want to feel like no matter where we are in our lives right now, that, you know, we're still able to move forward in a positive direction and continue contribute somehow. And that's. That's kind of what the song's about.
- [32:44]
A
My guests have been the doobie brothers, Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McPhee and Patrick Simmons. Their album is called Walk this Road. This is State of Grace. Thank you so much for being with us, by the way.
- [32:55]
E
Thank you for having us.
- [32:56]
C
Oh, thanks so much.
- [32:59]
G
I've been down this old road so many times don't know how I could have missed so many signs of who I am I thought I was and who I'm supposed to be I've wasted all of my life Living on the memories.
- [33:23]
B
They say every question has an answer Every dream could lead you home.
- [33:36]
A
That was my conversation with Michael McDonald's, Tom Johnston, John McPhee and Patrick Simmons, aka the Doobie Brothers. Their new album is called Walk this Road, and they were inducted this year into the Songwriters hall of Fame. Coming up, Steve Martin and Allison Brown show off some fancy finger picking. They drop by the studio to talk about their new album, safe, Sensible and sane and they brought their banjos with them. Hear them play. After a quick break, this is all of it.
- [34:15]
D
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