Sponsor (2:41)

Zach Berkman at People's Light in Malvern, Pennsylvania, got a Pew Heritage Grant to work on a show. And Zach and Coleman talked about how they had never seen a show about Nat King Cole. Both of them, like many of us in this country, grew up with, at least in the holidays, playing the Nat King Cole albums. He's an icon in our mind. But what's behind Someone like that, what's behind the mask of such a public extraordinary figure? And they felt like it was an untold story. So we began writing. Actually, it started with Coleman writing, and I was gonna direct. And then Coleman and I are dear friends. And one of the things this show is about is also about how to not be in isolation. How can public facing people have people who can tell them truths and work together? So he said, I'd like to write this with you. And so we began writing, and it was wonderful to do it in Malvern because we thought to ourselves, we're not just making it for a New York or Los Angeles audience. We are really making it for a wide cross section of people in Pennsylvania. And so we started writing, and we knew that at the center of this piece would be Nat King Cole. And then we knew we needed somebody to get under Nat's skin. And so we saw footage of Sammy Davis Jr. And we thought, oh, well, that's a delightful foil. And then casting was happened really early on. I mean, we built this show with and around Dulay Hill and Daniel J. Watts. I had seen them both after midnight on Broadway. Daniel and I had worked together before. I'd always wanted to work with Julie. So we cast them and then began writing, researching, and building the show around these two men as parts of Nat's psyche.

Alison Stewart (4:22)

What was interesting to you about this script? What really intrigued you?

Sponsor (4:28)

I feel like I'm always interested in people's public and private Personas, and I'm interested in America and American icons. So I think Nat is one of the most well regarded American icons. But often when we think of people as heroes or as icons, we don't think of them as full human beings who get scared, who get angry, who get frustrated. And I think that's actually a disservice both to them and what it took, the cost of grace, what it took to kind of reach the mountaintops, as we say with Martin Luther King Jr. Often. And also, what was the underbelly? How were we as human beings connected to that side that is afraid sometimes and worry sometimes? Coleman and I talk about this a lot. We all think we're running a leg of the race. But you ask yourself, is it enough? So here's Nat King Cole, who broke all of these barriers. He built Capitol Records. And yet in the article we found, because we found this Ebony magazine article that's famously quoted, Madison Avenue is freed of the dark. It's called why I Quit My TV show by Nat Kink Cole. And he wondered for all of the barriers that I broke, was it enough? And I think it's a question that's very alive for all of us.

Alison Stewart (5:43)

Dulay, people know you from tv, from the West Wing, from Psych. What made you want to do theater again?

Dulay Hill (5:49)

I love the medium of theater. It really is a powerful place that you can affect people. I love the idea that people come and sit down in the audience, and then we're going to go on this emotional journey for a period of time, we're going to exchange energy, and then you really can't escape it. And that's something I love about theater. And I was telling Patricia before, theater is a lot of work and there is a lot of cost to it physically. So for me, when I do get a chance to do theater, especially the older I get, I really want it to be something that is powerful, that is effectual, that is really engaging for people. And when I came across this piece, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'll never forget when I first sat down for the first reading that we did of the piece, I said, ooh, you two are slick. I said, ooh, I see what you're doing here. You know, And Coleman and Church are two artists that I've been fans of for years. I love how they approach the world with grace, but also with rigor. I appreciate how they really lean in to challenge us in the work that they do. So when I had the opportunity to sit down with the two of them and with Daniel J. Wild, it was a no brainer for me to be a part of him.

Alison Stewart (7:02)

He plays Sammy Davis Jr. We should say Dulay. Nat King Cole has a lot on his mind when we meet him. What is he thinking about? Where's his head?

Dulay Hill (7:11)

I think where Mr. Cole is, where his head is at, is, did I do enough? Did I do it right? Did I make the right choices? And the thing, what I love about this piece is that even though we are holding up Mr. Cole as this icon, you can insert any one of us, any one of us as individuals on this planet, in this nation, especially into this place to say, did I do it right? When you look back on the choices you've made and you see where you are, you know, where you've desired to go, but maybe you haven't actually reached that place. Did I do it right? And that's what I think Mr. Cole is really questioning at this point. He's at a crossroads. There's a transition of life for him in terms of his show ending. And I believe whenever we get to transitions in our lives. We're always wondering, what should I do next? Should I keep going in the way that I'm going? Should I, for lack of better words, burn it all down and start anew? Or should I keep holding up this light that I'm shining? There's all these complicated feelings that are going on. And I think that's what Mr. Cole is trying to navigate at this particular point.

Alison Stewart (8:14)

The story is not told in a linear fashion. Patricia, it's so interesting. It goes to a dream, sometimes to a nightmare. Sometimes it's like a daydream, and then it's broken from the nightmare. Why did you choose this as a storytelling. A storytelling way?

Sponsor (8:31)

I feel like we have so much access to his public presenting self. We have music, we have interviews, and we purposely set the framework for the show in his dressing room, where we get very private parts of him and in my private self. So in some ways, I could answer. And it's a bit of Christmas Carol. It's a bit of Wonderful Life. There's versions of these kind of flashback memory moments. And also in my own life, Julie and I were just talking. Sometimes somebody will say something. Something will happen. In this case, it's like somebody powdering his face. And you go down what I call a rabbit hole, where we could be in a room together, and all of a sudden, 400 years of history or personal experience open up. And I go down what I call a rabbit hole, even in real time. And that rabbit hole is full of joyful and painful and all kinds of memories. And then something clicks back in, and I'm back. So we both loved the challenge of the theatrical form, making the audience kind of lean in. It's a bit of a choose your own adventure, whodunit. But also, to me, that's true of real life. I feel like we always bring all of our history to bear in a moment and all of the possibilities of what could happen. We will walk out of the studio after this interview, and I will say, if I went right, what would happen? If I went left, what would happen? And I think this piece is also about choices and compromises and the parts of your life you replay when you've made a compromise you don't feel comfortable with. And the part of your imagining of what you would do if you could do something over again. So we decided to use this kind of framework that has references. You know, we. We say it's a Ghost of Christmas Past. We're. We're, you know, a little bit tricky about that. But but we don't mind that it leaves people itching a little bit to make sense of it all. Itching a little bit to know more about Nat. Like we say, it's not a biopic. It tells both real parts, like a cross being burned on his lawn in Hancock park, but also imagine parts. And I guess I would say my favorite part of that is his daughters, Timbaland and Casey, who have seen two incarnations of it and fly out to come and see it, because they say, we feel you've given us not only the incredible performance. We close our eyes. We feel like we hear our father's voice, but we also feel like you are offering an imagining of some things that we know what was going on underneath. We know the cost. We know the toll it would take sometimes when he would come home after having been dragged off by the KKK after all of these things. So I felt like the kind of fever dream. The fragmentation is reflective of a world where you're trying to reconcile the amount of glory that he had reached and also the continued traumas that he faced.

Alison Stewart (11:30)

We're talking about lights out, Nat King Cole. It's the New York theater workshop until June 29th. I'm speaking with its director, Patricia McGregor and Dulay Hill. He plays Nat King Cole. Obviously, you watched a lot of video of Nat King Cole to get his person, his characteristics down. What is a small mannerism that you observe that maybe we wouldn't notice as a person, but that you noticed and that you kept, and it really grounds you in the role of Nat King Cole?

Dulay Hill (11:58)

Oh, that's a good question. There's a few things, I think. I mean, obviously, the thing I think most people could notice is he always has his. Often has his hand in his pocket. One hand. Second would be the way he leans forward, he tilts his head. When he's, you know, he's talking. He kind of. I mean, this is radio, so I can't really explain it to the listening.

Alison Stewart (12:19)

Audience, but we got you. We got you. We know.

Dulay Hill (12:21)

And then also how he approaches vowels. That really is a thing that really stuck with me. He had a great command of what's the word I'm looking for? Not language, how he approached language. And that's something that, like, even as I talk now, I can stumble over my words. I can. I might talk a little fast, but that wasn't Mr. Cole. He was very intentional with the words that he said and how he said the words. And that's something that I take with me every time I enter on the Stage when I step into Mr. Cole's skin or his suit really is to be intentional with every word that I say and how I say it. And I think it has something to do. And this is just me putting it on it. But to be able to present that to the world of how full of class and grace and just enlightenment someone in my skin can be. And that powerful image of seeing that, especially in that time, and looking at the heights that he had reached and the places that he was able to go into, such as being on national television, entering into people's homes every week, to be able to show this is a powerful thing. And I think I would assume in my mind, as I tried to connect with Mr. Cole through this process, that it was very intentional to present in this way.

Alison Stewart (13:43)

Someone asked me, is this a musical or is this a play?

Sponsor (13:47)

This is the big question, because the music is in.

Alison Stewart (13:50)

Nat Kincole's music is in it.

Sponsor (13:52)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (13:52)

Do you think it's a musical or a play?

Sponsor (13:54)

What we've learned in this incarnation, and I always say we're always learning what we've learned in this incarnation, which will take a few little rewrites to tweak if. And we have a hopeful idea of a next incarnation, is that it actually sits most appropriately as a play with music, because the music, it is set on a soundstage where songs are happening and all of those. Those kinds of things are happening. And even in the Fever Dream, we're replaying that. And I think what is great about the frame of the Play with Music is it still allows us to do the kind of sneaky thing that we're doing. It's a bit of a Trojan horse, or what we call a grenade in a sheet cake. Right. We give you all the enticement. They do one of the most spectacular tap numbers in the history of tap. We gotta talk about that. Right? We're giving you all of that virtuosic entertainment. And yet I think most people associate plays. And really what we are doing is telling a story. We are telling a book driven story about the character of this man who happens to be a performer. So he sings because that is who he is and that is the company of people. But what we learned in this incarnation is a play with music helps us and the audience understand the kind of ride that they're about to go on. And it is not just a play because it has music, because that's a part of him, that's a part of his character. That's a part of what a play set On a soundchange would be kind of like stereophonic or many of these things. But it. But it is ultimately what we are getting at is the story, the untold sides of the story of Nat King Cole. So I think sometimes with musicals, which I love. I love the musical form, and I love pushing the American musical form and innovating it, but I think what we've learned here is, because we've kind of gone back and forth, is at its heart, it is a play with music. And I think that gives us the biggest invitation to audiences and the most liberated space to tell the kind of story we want to tell in the way we want to tell it.

Alison Stewart (15:53)

The show mirrors Dulet. He mirrors the way that he sort of feels about himself. He tries so hard to be honorable, and he wants to do the best in his job. He's not able to do the best in his job. Nothing to his avail. Black leaders said he wasn't doing enough at the time. Later, he was a lot more vocal, a lot more involved in civil rights. When you think about his history, does it impact your performance?

Dulay Hill (16:21)

I think. I mean, I think all of Mr. Cole impacts my performance. It's. And there's parts that I can relate to personally. You know, what I appreciate about Mr. Cole is that he did what he felt he should be doing, and it wasn't really so much in response to other people. It's what he felt to do from the inside out. And as time has gone on, we have seen the fruits of his labor. The fact that I'm actually sitting here having a conversation with you has everything to do with Mr. Cole and what he did before and those. And those like him. So I think for me, that. That stays with me, that he, you know, he did what he. He did what he felt to do, not so much in trying to please other people, but in doing what navigating life the way he thought was best to achieve his goals. And sometimes we get caught up in. I mean, I might be going on a tangent.

Alison Stewart (17:16)

Go for it. That's what Hulk radio is for.

Dulay Hill (17:18)

I think sometimes we might. Oftentimes we get caught up in really, the applause of others, the approval of others. But that might not always be the most effectual way to navigate the moment in time that we are in. And that really resonates with me. Stay true to yourself. Know what's going on on the inside, that inner voice that you're hearing telling you how to navigate life's journey. Just have faith in that process. And in the end, you will see the Fruits of the labor. And that's what. When I think of Mr. Cole and his journey, that's what. That's what touches me, because, again, I step into his suit every day. But I'm. I really like. There's a line in the show that says, if you kill me now, there will be 10 more. I am a part of the 10 more. Daniel J. Watts is a part of the 10 more. Patricia McGregor is a part of the 10 more. Colman Domingo is a part of the 10 more because he ran Allison Stewart, Alison Stewart. Come on now.

Sponsor (18:13)

That's right.

Dulay Hill (18:13)

I often say life is not a sprint and it's not a marathon. It's a relay. You get the baton from somebody and you eventually have to hand it off to somebody else. So you run your leg to the best of your abilities. And that is what I feel Mr. Cole has done. And I think that's what our responsibility is. Do it in our way. And then really trust. Trust that you've done you. You've ran your race, you've ran your good race, and that you will pass it on to the next generation.

Alison Stewart (18:36)

Let's talk about the tap dance number. The audience gets to its feet at the end of this tap dance number, this intense tap dance number. You get a sense that Nat King Col is releasing something during this. Sammy Davis Jr. Is there egging him on. Can you walk us through how that scene developed?

Sponsor (18:56)

It's one of my favorite memories, probably of my life. We went to Malvern, Pennsylvania. I said, we're getting Dulay Hill. Malvern, Pennsylvania. Here we go. Dulay Hill. Daniel J. Watts, Jared Grimes, Tony Award nominee, extraordinary tap choreographer, and John McDaniels, who music supervisor, orchestration, et cetera. So it's a small group of us for about three days, because I feel like Jared was only with us for about three days in that run. And we talked about, what does it take to take off the mask of grace, the mask of public conversation, actually go into the Pandora's box of pain and rage and all of those things that we knew Nat had as well. And what is the best expression of that? So we knew from the beginning that Sammy was going to tap in the piece, because Sammy did, and Sammy was provoking. We went to. Actually back up. Just before we went to Melbourne, we went to San Diego. We were at the Old Globe in San Diego. And at that time, Dooley had a cast on his. He had a boot on his.

Dulay Hill (19:55)

I tore my Achilles.

Sponsor (19:56)

Yes, he tore his Achilles. So he had a boot. And we're kind of talking about Something with tab. And, you know, Daniel's off tapping, and then we hear this boom, boom, boom. And it's. It's Dulay's boot. And, you know, and they're brothers, but they're also, as with brothers, there's a little bit of, like, healthy competition going on. He's like, well, you know, I can tap to. I said, yes, I know you can tap too. I know you can. And so we thought to ourselves, oh, that's kind of exciting that it wouldn't just be a singular tap. And I do think people have misconceptions of tap, just like they might have misconceptions about Nat, you know, and what it is to be a performer and what's underneath. So we knew, okay, Dulay wants to tap too. We cut to Malvern, and we had these two pieces of music. Sit right down and write myself a letter and me and my shadow. And we knew it was gonna start with sit right down and write myself a letter. And then John. Beautifully orchestrated Me and my shadow.

Dulay Hill (20:54)

John McDaniel.

Sponsor (20:54)

John McDaniel and I, as the director and co writer, said, these are the events. This is the arc I want. The arc I want is he's finally open to starting to tell his truth. And he puts on his shoes. You know, there's literally a moment where Sammy sends this, like, tap energy across to him. And then we started to build in chunks, and I would say, this is a thing I want. And then I would go away, and I come back, and they'd have a bunch of vocabulary and say, okay, let's take that moment. Let's take that moment. Take that moment, and build to this crescendo. And at the top of the crescendo, for those listening, we actually then start to go into, like, West African polyrhythms, right? We're saying every moment, the moment he's powdered is linked to moments that are, you know, go generations back. And how do we unearth all of that and then get to a point that is liberation? At the end of the day, this tap number, this virtuosic, undeniable moment, and part of what I love is somebody from people's light said, you know, that I never thought there could be angry tap before. And I'm like, yes, to have this really enticing, theatrical moment that everyone has leaned forward for. And then when they think about it, they think, oh, wow, I've just really applauded this kind of Vesuvius purging of a truth that you feel has been stifled. You've Seen all of these little moments where. And we all know them from life, where you go, okay, that felt uncomfortable, but I'm gonna accept that. Okay, okay. Okay. And then this tap number explodes all of that. And it is, again, they are some of the best tappers in the world in a legacy of extraordinary tappers, and they really talk about that legacy. And part of that vocabulary is in there, including Jared Grimes, the tap choreographer. And at the end, I remember sitting back in that room with, you know, just some friends and seeing the culmination of the piece and saying, that's going to be one of the things I think I was put on this earth to help do. I feel like it is a showcase of my very talented brothers. Like, I love my brothers, I love my collaborators, showcases their virtuosity in an amazing way. It tells an important part of the story, and perhaps most importantly, it gets people to lean in. I always think to myself, how do help people lean into hard conversations? And I feel like it helps. The virtuosity of it helps people lean into a thing that they might have trouble receiving in another form.

Alison Stewart (23:27)

You know, I noticed, Dulay, that there are talkbacks after a lot of the shows. What do people want to talk to you about?

Dulay Hill (23:33)

You know, I will say I don't do a lot of the talkbacks because I'm exhausted.

Sponsor (23:37)

He's got to rest. He's got to rest his knees. But what have you heard?

Dulay Hill (23:40)

But I think people oftentimes they want to talk about the journey of Mr. Cole. They want to talk about the. Not really not realizing the cost that it was for him, but also how much it relates to where we are today. And was that an intentional thing? And that's something that they often want to talk about. They. And even for me personally, one reason why, like, why did I want to do this piece? And what parts of Mr. Cole's journey do I connect with? That's often a part of the conversation. And then. And even with the dance, we get to the personal expression of that, because as we're telling that story of Mr. Cole and sitting right down and writing myself a letter and then eventually going into tap, that is. I mean, that's most tap dancers that I know. It's an avenue of expression. I always, you know, to be able to take all of these things that are coming at you within the world and to put it into something. And for tap dancers, it's tap. For singers, it's a song. For playwrights, they put it into their art. For painters, they put it into. But they put it into the work that they do. That's what art is. Art is the expression of the challenges of life. To me, that's how that's the conversation that people want to have.

Alison Stewart (25:01)

Oftentimes, the name of the show is Lights Out Nat King Cole. It's at the New York theater workshop until June 29th. I have been speaking with Dua Hill, Dulay Hill who plays Nat King cold, and Patricia McGregor who co wrote it and directed it. Thank you so much for coming to the studio.

Sponsor (25:16)

Thank you so much for having us.

Alison Stewart (25:17)

There's more, all of it on the way.

Sponsor (25:20)

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