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Trina Shoemaker
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Koosha Navadar
This is all of it. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart, who is on vacation and will be back Monday. A reminder that you now have one month to submit a tune to the WNYC Public Song Project. Take something from the public domain. I'm talking about a work of music, film, literature, poetry, and send in in a song based on it. You'll get to be part of WNYC's public songbook and you might even be interviewed here on air. All kinds of songs and skill levels are accepted. Have fun with it. Here's how you can submit. Go to wnyc.orgpublicsong project for more info. The deadline to submit is April 28th. Again, that address is wnyc.orgpublicsong song project. That's in the future. The not too distant future, but the future nonetheless. Let's get started right now, this hour with the final installment of our Women's History Month series, Equalizers. Women in Music Production.
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Emmylou Harris
Take it. I bring you apples from the front.
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Koosha Navadar
Trina Shoemaker is a producer and engineer. In 1999, she became the first woman to win a Grammy for Best Engineered Album for her work on Sheryl Crow's the Globe Sessions. She's worked with Brandi Carlile, Indigo Girls, the Secret Sisters, Emmylou Harris, even Iggy Pop and Queens of the Stone Age and many more musicians over the last three decades. In 2021, she won a Grammy for Best country album with Tanya Tucker, and later that year, she was given a lifetime achievement award from the Americana Music association for our final installment of our Women's History Month series, Equalizers, Women in Music Production. I'm thrilled to be joined by Trina Shoemaker. Welcome to all of it.
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Trina Shoemaker
Hi. Thank you, Kusha. I'm glad to be here.
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Koosha Navadar
I'm so excited to get to speak with you. Let's start right at the beginning. What was your first engineering job?
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Trina Shoemaker
Well, my first engineering job was really cleaning recording studios in New Orleans. In my mind, that was an engineering job because it was the late 80s, early 90s and I was in a studio and I got to touch the gear. I got to dust the gear. So for me, that was my first engineering job. And it was from there that I, you know, over a very kind of harrowing beginning, learned the art of recording.
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Koosha Navadar
Harrowing is. Is a. Is a great word. What was. What was harrowing about it?
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Trina Shoemaker
Well, for me, it was harrowing because, again, this was pre Internet, pre digital. This was back in the analog era. And I was a young woman alone in a strange city. I didn't have a. I have a lovely family, but they weren't. They didn't know what I was doing. Nobody really knew what an engineer was in the world I came from. Everybody knew what a record was and they knew what the radio was. But, I mean, I think for a while my dad actually thought maybe I was gonna work at Blockbuster Video. Like, there was no correlation between the art of recording or recording and what I kept saying. I wanted to be a record producer, an engineer. So I felt very alone. I had no peers. I just had my wits. I made you very little money. So I lived literally hand to mouth for a very long time. And so in that way, it was harrowing. And it was also just in the face of this monolithic equipment, which is how it looked to me again. Now, computers are small and equipment is quite dainty, but we're talking about big tape machines, big recording consoles, big speakers, big, heavy rolls of tape. So in that way, it all. Cutting yourself on razor blades when you're doing editing, I mean, it actually had the possibility to inflict physical injury upon yourself inadvertently. So all of it just seemed quite harrowing. Beautiful, but harrowing.
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Koosha Navadar
And you mentioned your family not being able to really make the connection between the music they were listening to and the process and what you wanted to do. So what drew you to engineering in the first place?
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Trina Shoemaker
You know, it was kind of a twofold psychological process that, of course, in hindsight, because I'm nearly 60 years old and I have been able to think past, back across the past 40 years and fathom that question. I do remember clearly being a very little girl and having a 45, you know, little record player that played 45s and understanding early on that while life was chaos around me, things I didn't understand, things that I found frightening. If I put the needle on the record and it played, and I would always find a favorite part of the song, you know, the chorus or whatever it was that captured my little imagination. And I understood that if I lifted the needle up and put it back and laid it down again, I would receive the dose, I would receive the hit that I needed. And so even at Maybe four or five years old. I bonded with that which came off the vinyl as something I could count on, something I could control. In addition to that, of course, I loved music and I loved albums and I loved looking at album jackets and the inside. And I would occasionally see glimpses of what I now know as the control room and the people in there crafting the music. My dad, meanwhile, worked for a gas transmission company and he was a dispatcher, and he worked in an underground room at Midwestern Gas, and it was called the control room. And inside it was a console, which was, of course, a big board up on the wall that showed the lighted route of the pipelines. And there were all kinds of meters and knobs and valves and things, you know, that again, later, as I found myself in an actual control room with very, very similar looking pieces of equipment and a console, a closed environment. I feel that I inadvertently gravitated towards meters because as a little kid I saw pictures of meters in control rooms and I loved my dad and I wanted to be near him in his place. And so it's just a strange little, I think, psychological thing that happened.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, yeah.
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Trina Shoemaker
In a kid brain. And so. And then the backdrop was, of course, my great love for music. But never did I have in me, nor do I, to this day, a desire to be the performer, to play, to get up in front of people. I'm actually very shy in that way. So I was fascinated by the sound. And I also remember being a kid putting on headphones, the big 1970s style heavy, know, plastic headphones, and listening to things like Tubular Bells and Jesus Christ Superstar soundtrack and Simon and Garfunkel and all these amazing records and being fascinated by how is it that this sound is only in the left ear and this sound is only in the right ear and this sound seems to be not quite in the middle. But I didn't know the word panned left of center. Now, of course I know that's the panning scheme in any given mix, but I was fascinated by it and. And the aspects of sound.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, so there's a lot of pieces here that really brought you, like, culminated in this desire to. To investigate the creation of music. And, you know, we looked at your Discogs and AllMusic credits to get a sense of where you started, you know, as going from being a kid to, you know, dusting off the consoles in your first job to then actually producing music. We went back to the very beginning. We found a track from the album Out Texas Style by the smokin Joe cubic band from 1991. Do you remember that?
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Trina Shoemaker
I didn't, no. See, that's all music is not accurate. Sorry. All music. You'd have to go to my website, to my discography. That is the accurate. And it goes back into the early 90s. I have no memory of that record. Now, that doesn't mean that I wasn't an assistant on it at some point, but there have been probably thousands of records that I've been exposed to. So I have no knowledge of this record. You're welcome to play it, I hope.
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Koosha Navadar
No, no. I was wondering. That's part of it. It's just that finding, you know, such a long, illustrious career. I'm sure you have made so much music. Do you remember the first one that you would credit yourself with making?
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Trina Shoemaker
One of the very first ones would have been a record called University by the Throwing Muses. Another very, very early record that I was not just an assistant on, but an actual functioning engineer was a giant sand record called Glum. You know, really early on, of course, the Iggy Pop record American Caesar. There was a Neville Brothers record that was produced by Hock Wolinski. I don't know why I cannot remember the name of it at this moment. But, you know, there were some, you know, really very early stuff that would have been in the very early 90s.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah. Moving along a little bit, we found another one, Orphan Girl by emmylou Harris from 1995.
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Trina Shoemaker
Very, very much.
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Koosha Navadar
Palm music credits you with engineering, editing, sequencing and mastering. Talk to us a little bit about that. What are you proud of on this track?
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Trina Shoemaker
Everything. I'm intensely proud of that entire record. It has actually just been, or about to be inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame album area, whatever the proper name of that is. That was my part of. It took place at Kingsway Studio in New Orleans, which was owned by Daniel Lanois, who was a great mentor of mine. I learned much about recording from him and Malcolm Byrne and Mark Howard in those early New Orleans days. And Emmy Lou's record was just magical. Darrell Johnson sang quite a bit on that. He's a singer and a bass player and a multi instrumentalist, not to be confused with the bass player who also plays with the Rolling Stones. There are two Daryl John bass players in the world. Music. This is not that one. This is another one. Everything about it. Neil Young came in, you know, to sing on it. And so suddenly I'm getting vocal sounds for Neil Young and. And just crafting Emmy's vocal. I still remember all of the reverb settings. I remember The EQ settings, I remember the compression settings, I remember the excitement of mixing live. There was no automation package on the API console at Kingsway. And for listeners who don't know what that is, an automation package is basically automated faders that you write in the moves.
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Koosha Navadar
So you were doing everything by hand.
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Trina Shoemaker
Everything by hand. So it was all persons on deck to print one mix. There were several fader moves and several mutes and changes that had to happen.
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Koosha Navadar
Trina, let's listen to a little bit of it to give listeners a sense. Here's Orphan Girl by Emmylou Harris. Let's listen to a little bit bit.
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Emmylou Harris
No Father, no Sin.
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Koosha Navadar
That was Orphan Girl by emmylou Harris from 1995. We are talking to Trina Shoemaker as part of our final installment of our Women's History Month series, Women in Music Production. Trina Shoemaker is the first woman to win a Grammy for Best Engineered Album. And I want to talk about the Grammys a little bit. Trina, in 1999 you won the Grammy for Best Engineered Album, becoming the first woman to win that award. Take us back to that moment. What did that milestone mean to you?
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Trina Shoemaker
It meant a great deal, of course, it was shocking. It was utterly unexpected. Sheryl Crow was of course already a famous artist when she started her second record. And I was involved in that second record nonetheless, to get a call from a colleague of mine. I don't even remember who alerted me that I was nominated for a Grammy. I really didn't even know what on earth he was talking about. It just seemed so unfathomable to me that that was happening. And of course Chad Blake and Andy Wallace were also recipients of that Grammy Award. And so of course Chad called and he's like, are you coming out to LA for the show? And I was panic stricken because Grammy gowns aren't really in my closet and. But I went out and bought a dress and did the whole thing and flew out to la and Chad and I went together and that was enough, you know, just to show up and be in a gown and have my hair done and makeup done and then to sit there. I never ever thought for a second that it would actually win. And then it did. You know, of course you go up on stage, it was pre show. It's not part of the telecast, part of the show. It's the pre show Grammys. And you know, went on stage though, and accepted the award. And of course I was so naive about the process. I thought the, the prop that they give you to hold while you're accepting the award was your Grammys.
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Koosha Navadar
Your Grammys. And she tried to walk off with it.
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Trina Shoemaker
And I'm walking off, they're like, excuse me. And I was like, I don't. I have to give it back.
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Koosha Navadar
Like, what's the point? What's the point?
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Trina Shoemaker
Point? And then I understood that, you know, I'd be mailed one with a name on it.
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Koosha Navadar
And do you recall how many women engineers were there around you, especially in those early years of your career?
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Trina Shoemaker
Very, very few. And again, in the early years, there was no Internet, so there was no way to Google women engineers. I was aware only of Peggy Leonard and only because she, you know, worked on Purple Rain. And I was aware of Susan Rogers. And at that early on, that was it. But I had no idea where these or how to find them. Now I know that there was also Leslie Ann Jones, there was Sylvia Massey and probably more. But in my sphere, you know, in the world I occupied, there were zero women engineers. So it was just me. Although that never entered my mind. Not that I knew I was a woman and I knew I was an engineer, but it never occurred to me that there weren't really many others because frankly, I was busy, you know, and the gear doesn't care if you're a man or a woman. Sound does not have a gender. I was strong, I was kind of mean. People didn't really mess around. I had a very specific job to do and it was very exhausting to do. So I never had time to ponder, hmm, I'm the only woman, right?
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, you won that Grammy for working on Sheryl Crow's album the Globe Sessions. But you wanted to highlight a different song from Sheryl Crow from her previous self titled album. The song is maybe Angels. Why is this song important to you?
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Trina Shoemaker
Because at the very beginning, and listeners will hear a unique sound introduces the track. It kind of goes and that. But the capturing of that feedback moment by me, and this is all on tape, mind you. We had no Pro Tools going on. This is all the old fashioned way was something that I had been trying to. I had it in my head that I could make two 1176 compressors do something that I wanted to hear. And I tried over and over again to get them to do it. And then finally I got him to do it and I, you know, I was in record, of course, and I captured that and I'm just extraordinarily proud of that, you know, three seconds in recording history. It's never been repeated. It can never be repeated.
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Koosha Navadar
Wow. Let's Listen to it. Here's maybe angels.
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Emmylou Harris
Six lane highway Running up to my back door.
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Koosha Navadar
Trina, I'm so happy that you pointed out that sound effect right in the beginning, because it really stands out in a wonderful way when you listen for it. But also, I want to touch on country and Americana as well, generally, because that music is a through line in your work. Has it been deliberate or was it more about the people, you know, and just kind of got put towards that genre? What happened there?
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Trina Shoemaker
Well, I started doing music that now would be called Americana, certainly, and in the new country country, not the old country, not like our little Guthrie country, but, you know, modern country before there were those genres or before they were named Americana, certainly. So my history just already kind of existed in. It actually used to be called, like, alternative, but then that turned into something else. And Americana, you know, rose up in the public lexicon. And so suddenly I was working on Americana stuff, but I had actually already been working on that sort of music for essentially my whole career. I mean, you could say Emmy Lou Harris Wrecking Ball is Americana now. It certainly is. Then it was just Emmylou Harris being cool, so. But also, no, it was not like a choice. It's just that I would start when you already kind of have a discography that has a lot of that sort of music and that kind of sonic backdrop. You're known to be able to produce that sort of sound. And so people tend to gravitate towards it, but it was never intentional.
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Koosha Navadar
That makes a lot of sense. So what kind of music do you listen to for fun?
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Trina Shoemaker
Well, I almost exclusively listened to music from the 1970s, because in my opinion, that was the best decade for music, particularly the early 70s. I'm an old lady. I am still stuck in, you know, Everyday People and Some Kind of Wonderful. And, you know, Sam Cooke and Otis Redding and the Rolling Stones, of course, and the Beatles and what, you know, all of the. Mainly because there's something sonically that is just. It's what moved me in the first place. And so it's still. I truly believe that peop. Now, that's not to say that there aren't new songs that I don't love and need. Of course there are. But I think that people during their formative years, and in particular adolescents, are bound to music because it helps them through that period where we evolve into, you know, young adults. And I don't think we ever are able to release ourselves from that. So, again, when, you know, when Everyday People starts, that song freezes me in my tracks. I need to stop what I'm doing and just listen to Sly Stone. You know, there's no releasing me from that. It's not. It can never be a backdrop. It will always be the forefront. And songs during that entire period of time. So that's kind of still what I listen to and is what I still think sounds the best. That's just my me.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the 70s as well. I might rack that up there as one of the best decades for music as well. Let's play a song that just came out this year, though, which you mixed. It's Game I Can't Win from Charlie Crockett. What makes you proud of this track?
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Trina Shoemaker
Everything. Charlie is just already a legend. Shooter Jennings, a producer. David Sprang, the engineer. I mixed that record. I didn't produce that record, of course, and they are just so talented. So every single aspect from Charlie, his band, the song, the production, the recording, my mix, if I may say so. And it was such an easy thing to do. I mean, Charlie was just so. You know, I'd put a mix up on the thread and he'd be like, you like it? I'm like, yeah, of course I like it. You know, I just mix it for you. Well, I just want the ladies to be happy. And he's just a Southern gentleman, and he's just like, I just want basically the ladies to be happy, you know? And he's not trying to be silly or sexist in any way. He's just letting me know if I'm happy with it. Charlie's happy with it. And that's a huge vote of confidence. And it was just fun. It's cool. I love it. That's why it made the list.
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Koosha Navadar
All right, let's take a listen. Here's game. I can't win.
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E
I'm gonna rob that Mason Ferdy Bank Think I take it just as fast as I can that old time feeling Just up and walked away Left me with these entry SP and boys in Nashville they don't mess around but watch them when your deal pulls down.
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Koosha Navadar
So, Trina, what are you working on these days?
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Trina Shoemaker
I just finished mixing a record for the Turnpike Troubadours. This is my. The second record that I've mixed from them that is not released yet. I'm gonna mix a track for a dear friend of mine, Trixie Whitley, in the next few days. And otherwise I'm not, you know, I've got some stuff to do. But, you know, I still live even after all these years, after all these decades, hand to mouth, I'm kind of waiting for a gig to come in. If anybody's got a record, they. They need mixed.
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Koosha Navadar
New York City, if you're listening.
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Trina Shoemaker
Yeah, in New York City, if you're listening. No, it always. It's feast or famine. I sometimes am booked with too many records and I don't have enough time to even breathe. I'm double booked. I'm mixing a song for one band and then I switch. When I put that one up and start another one for another band, it can get to where I feel schizophrenic. Or then there are times when there's just nothing happening. And of course I panic and think, it's over. We're done, people, it's finished. Luckily, I've developed in my late 50s and going into my 60s here, an entirely new passion which fills the downtime and allows me to know that life isn't over if I don't have another gig lined up immediately. Do you want to know what it is?
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Koosha Navadar
I bet I could guess, but why don't you share? What is it?
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Trina Shoemaker
I started writing novels. Yeah, that's what it means. And I've got a novel out on submission now with my agent, Anna Worrell from the David Gurner Company. And I'm about to finish my second novel. I don't know if my first novel's gonna sell or not. It's all fiction, you know, takes place in the 90s. But I'm writing another book. I found that I love writing. And I never saw that coming. Never. I never wrote before. Yet I've realized that all these years of living inside the hidden workings of other people's songs and creating narratives while I lived inside their brains, essentially I made up my own set of characters that live inside my brain. And when I gave voice to them through written word, I found out that all these years of editing and of extremely focused. I mean, I could spend three hours working on the bridge of one song. That's only about 40 seconds, and I can spend three hours working on a paragraph. So it kind of exercises the same part of my mind to work on music and to write, as it turns out. So, yeah, I want to be a writer.
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Koosha Navadar
Wonderful. Sounds like you already are a person of many talents. Let's go out on one more song you engineered. You sent us a song from Brandi Carlisle that you're proud of. I'm going to say the song, then I'm going to say goodbye to you, and then we're going to listen to it. It's called the Eye from her album the Firewatcher's Daughter. We've been talking to Trina Shoemaker as our final installment of our Women's History Month series, Women in Production. Trina is the first woman to win a Grammy for Best Engineered Album. Trina, thanks so much for hanging out with us for all of your work and for telling us your wonderful career trajectory here. We really appreciate it.
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Trina Shoemaker
Thanks for having me.
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Koosha Navadar
Let's listen to the I Here it is.
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Emmylou Harris
It really breaks my heart to see a dear old friend Go down in the worn out place again.
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Trina Shoemaker
Do you.
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Emmylou Harris
Know the sound of a closing door? Have you heard that sound somewhere before? Do you wonder if she knows you.
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Trina Shoemaker
Anymore.
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