Equalizers: Terri Lyne Carrington

Summary

All Of It: Equalizers – Terri Lyne Carrington

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host/Author: WNYC
• Episode: Equalizers: Terri Lyne Carrington
• Release Date: March 20, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators about the what and why of their work.

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Introduction to Terri Lyne Carrington

The episode "Equalizers" features Terri Lyne Carrington, a Grammy-winning drummer, composer, and producer. Carrington is also the founder and artistic director of the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. Her illustrious career began in the 1980s, performing alongside jazz legends such as Wayne Shorter and Farrow Sanders, and serving as the house drummer for Arsenio Hall. Over the decades, she has evolved into a bandleader and a celebrated recording artist, producing her own music and that of other renowned artists like Diane Reeves and Tina Marie.

Notable Quote:

"Culture encompasses religion, food, what we wear, how we wear it, our language, marriage, music, what we believe is right or wrong, how we sit at the table, how we greet visitors, how we behave with loved ones, and a million other things." – Cristina De Rossi (Introduction contextualizing the show's focus on culture)

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Early Career and First Productions

Carrington began producing albums in the late 1980s. Her first album, "Real Life Story" (1988), was co-produced with Robert Irving III, Miles Davis's musical director at the time. This collaboration marked the beginning of her solo production career. After a hiatus of over a decade, she returned to produce "Jazz is the Spirit" and "Structure" on the German label Act. Her significant breakthrough came with the "Mosaic Project", which earned her the first Grammy Award under the category Best Jazz Vocal in 2023. This win was notable as Carrington was primarily recognized as a producer rather than a vocalist, although she did sing on one track.

Notable Quote:

"I just love the feeling of creating something kind of from nothing... let the art itself emerge." – [04:32]

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Philosophy on Music Production

Carrington emphasizes the importance of thematic coherence and narrative in music production. She likens producing an album to writing a story, where each decision contributes to an overarching message. Whether instrumental or vocal, maintaining a theme is crucial for creating a cohesive narrative both verbally and sonically.

Notable Quote:

"You have to think thematically... you create a narrative, both verbally, of course, and also sonically." – [05:26]

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Transition to Producing Others: Working with Diane Reeves

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Carrington's collaboration with Diane Reeves, a long-time friend and esteemed jazz vocalist. Their partnership dates back to their meeting at the Wichita Kansas Jazz Festival when Carrington was just ten years old. Over the years, Carrington has co-produced several of Reeves's albums, including "Art and Survival" (1993) and "Beautiful Life", the latter of which garnered a Grammy Award for Reeves and Carrington.

Notable Quote:

"We met when I was 10 years old and she was in her late teens... we've been friends ever since." – [10:13]

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Production Challenges: The Story of "Feels so Good Lifted"

Carrington shares an insightful story about producing "Feels so Good Lifted" from Diane Reeves's album "Beautiful Life". During the final stages of production, Carrington lost a hard drive containing essential recordings. This led to a high-pressure situation where she had to quickly write new lyrics for the song "Feel So Good" to meet the album's deadline. Demonstrating resilience and adaptability, Carrington penned the lyrics in an hour, ensuring the album's completion without exceeding the budget.

Notable Quote:

"As a producer, you have to do so many different things... you have to just show up, focus and deliver." – [16:17]

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Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice

Carrington founded the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice to address systemic gender issues within the jazz community and the broader music industry. Her initiative aims to create a supportive environment where women and other marginalized groups can thrive without facing the extra burdens and barriers prevalent in the field. The institute focuses on mentorship, advocacy, and education, promoting both racial and gender justice as foundational principles.

Notable Quote:

"We advocate and teach, mentor, advocate for people... with both racial justice and gender justice as guiding principles." – [19:11]

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Gender and Production in the Music Industry

The discussion highlights the underrepresentation of women in production and engineering roles within the music industry. Carrington underscores the importance of institutions like her own institute in fostering equitable opportunities. She acknowledges the gradual increase in female engineers but emphasizes that true equity has yet to be achieved.

Notable Quote:

"Any other kinds of organizations or programs that are focused on this, it's very important." – [19:56]

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Latest Project: Reimagining "We Insist"

Carrington is currently working on a new version of "We Insist", an influential suite originally composed by drummer Max Roach. This project aims to honor Roach's legacy on his centennial while bringing a fresh perspective to the piece. The reimagined version transforms the original fast-paced composition into a ballad, thereby altering its lyrical interpretation to reflect contemporary freedom movements alongside historical contexts like the Emancipation Proclamation and Juneteenth.

She collaborated with Julian Priester, the last surviving musician from the original recording, and featured artists such as Christy Dashiell, Simon Molier, Matthew Stevens, Morgan Guerin, and Melena Casado. The single "Freedom Day Part 1" was released a week prior to the episode, with the full album slated for a June release.

Notable Quote:

"I wanted to completely flip it... now this Freedom Day... also reflects some of the modern freedom movements and freedom struggles that we're facing today." – [23:50]

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Conclusion

Terri Lyne Carrington's extensive career and her unwavering commitment to fostering inclusivity within the jazz and broader music community are profoundly showcased in this episode of "All Of It." Her insights into production, mentorship, and the challenges faced by women in the industry provide valuable perspectives for listeners interested in the intersection of culture, music, and social justice.

Final Note: The episode concludes with the play of Carrington's newly released track "Freedom Day," encapsulating her vision of blending historical reverence with contemporary relevance.

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Notable Quotes Summary

1. Creating from Nothing:

   "I just love the feeling of creating something kind of from nothing... let the art itself emerge." – [04:32]

2. Thematic Narrative:

   "You have to think thematically... you create a narrative, both verbally, of course, and also sonically." – [05:26]

3. Long-time Collaboration:

   "We met when I was 10 years old and she was in her late teens... we've been friends ever since." – [10:13]

4. Handling Pressure:

   "As a producer, you have to do so many different things... you have to just show up, focus and deliver." – [16:17]

5. Advocacy and Mentorship:

   "We advocate and teach, mentor, advocate for people... with both racial justice and gender justice as guiding principles." – [19:11]

6. Importance of Organizations:

   "Any other kinds of organizations or programs that are focused on this, it's very important." – [19:56]

7. Reimagining "We Insist":

   "I wanted to completely flip it... now this Freedom Day... also reflects some of the modern freedom movements and freedom struggles that we're facing today." – [23:50]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the rich discussions, insights, and experiences shared by Terri Lyne Carrington in the "Equalizers" episode of WNYC's "All Of It." Whether you're a fan of jazz, an aspiring producer, or someone interested in cultural advocacy, Carrington's story offers valuable lessons on creativity, resilience, and the pursuit of equality in the arts.

Transcript

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Kusha Navadar]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar. Alison Stewart is on vacation. You're stuck with me for just a few days this coming week. So, hey, thanks for joining us. I'm happy that you're here. Coming up on tomorrow's show, all of it producer Jordan Loft joins us to talk about spring books. She'll share with us what she's reading and we want to know what's on your night table. Plus, we are heading into the weekend and we need recommendations. So let us know what you are doing. We will want your calls and texts or you can DM us on social media right now at all of it, wnyc. Again, let us know what your weekend plans are on tomorrow's show. We're going to take your calls about it. And yes, I know at least one all of it producer who will be glued to college basketball. So that all is in about 24 hours. So on we go with today's show with another installment of our Women's History Month series, Women in Music Production. My next guest is Terri Lynn Carrington, a Grammy winning drummer, composer and producer. She's also the founder and artistic director of the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. Carrington's career began in the 1980s playing alongside jazz luminaries like Wayne Shorter and Farrow Sanders and as the house drummer for Arsenio Hall. In time, she became a band leader and a recording artist in her own right, releasing many albums and winning Grammy awards. In jazz, she's produced her own work and the work of other artists like Diane Reeves and tina Marie. In 2023, she was honored by the Producers and Engineers wing of the Recording Academy. And she joins me now for another installment of our Women's History Month series, Equalizers, Women in Music Production. Terri Lynn, welcome to all of it.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nice to be here.

[Kusha Navadar]

It's nice to have you. Thanks so much for joining us. So let's start at the start. You produced your first album, Real Life Story, 1988. Was it always your, your plan to produce that album or, or did it happen more by chance?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Well, actually that one I co produced my first album. I co produced it with Robert Irving iii, who was Miles Davis's musical director at the time. But then all of my records after that produced solely and let's see, what was the next one, I didn't record again for over 10 years. So the next record was Jazz is the Spirit and then Structure. Those were on his German label called act. And, yeah, produced those. But then the next big thing was the Mosaic project, which was the first Grammy that I won. And that was under, as far as the Grammys, that was under Best Jazz Vocal. So a lot of people, you know, had some questions about me winning because I wasn't singing. I did sing on one song, but it had a lot of different vocalists. But I really won that as the producer, even though I was also the artist.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. And, you know, going back to that, that kind of intro, you know, first go around of co producing on Real Life Story, what was it about producing your first album that made you want to continue producing?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

I just love the feeling of creating something kind of from nothing. You know, you have a plan. You have, in essence, like a script, if I was using an analogy, like a film. And then you go in and you see what happens, and you have to pivot and really let something emerge, let the art itself emerge. Not be too attached to your original ideas, and let the artist that you've got together, let them do what they do best and also guide them and find that balance between what you're hearing in your head and what other people are bringing to the table. And I just love that kind of.

[Kusha Navadar]

Work and that sense of discovery that you mentioned. You know, I love how you brought up the idea, like, relating it to writing. In many ways, when I think about writing, I think about, like, you start with the idea of a story for you as a producer. Is there an equivalent to that story idea in music when you start out with producing an album?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Well, I think yes. You have to think thematically, you know, you have to think about what you're trying to convey, like an overall message. Some of what I produce is instrumental and some is with vocals. So of course, it's easier to have a theme when you have the vocals, but even without it, you still have to have a theme. And so that's kind of rolling around the back of your brain with all the decisions that you're making. So you create a narrative, both verbally, of course, and also sonically.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. Let's listen to some. Right now, I want to play a song from Real Life Story. This is the first track. It's called Message True. Here it is. That was Message True. We are talking to Terri Lynn Carrington, the drummer, composer and producer. We're talking to Terry for our Women's History Month series, Equalizers, Women in Music Product. Terry, you know, you're best known as a drummer. How did you find your way to the Drums.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Well, I'm a third generation musician. My grandfather was a drummer and he passed away about six months before I was born. And my father played saxophone and drums. So the drums are in the house and probably also in the blood a little bit. And I think when kids are curious and, you know, you give them opportunities to discover things and you support their curiosity, this is what can happen. And I was very fortunate that my parents were very supportive of a little girl trying to play the drums in. In 1973 or four when I started, because I didn't see any other women playing drums. So there were no role models like that for me. But even back then, when I was 10, I probably wrote my first song. And when I was a teenager, I, you know, went to probably somebody's home studio and would demo songs. And even when I did my first album at 16, which was just released 40 years later. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's called TLC and Friends. And we, we made some back then and just gave them away. But it had a proper release on Candid Records a couple of years ago. But, you know, I spliced. And that was back, you know, in the older days when you didn't have all this digital technology. So I was with the engineer, you know, splicing the tape and, you know, doing all that. And I think even back then, production was something that really caught my attention.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. Terry Lynn, you've said that it seems natural for drummers to become producers. As a trumpet player myself, I thought, oh, that's interesting. I don't know if that applies to trumpet players, but that's very interesting about drummers. I'm wondering, why do you think drummers make good producers?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Well, because I think when we're on stage, we have to have a real sense of the arc of a piece of music. We can really help control the direction of where a piece goes. We're supportive. You know, we know when to lead, we know when to follow. We know generally what's needed at any given moment to. To bring something over the top, if that's what's needed, or to calm things down if that's what's needed. So I just feel like how we have to function as a drummer is leans toward, you know, production. It's production minded. Yeah. And, you know, there's been some great drummer producers, of course.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. Can you think of that?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Yeah. Narda, Michael Walden, Lenny White, Phil Collins. I don't know.

[Kusha Navadar]

There's a bunch. I don't want to put any instrument players on the spot, but are there any Instruments that you think historically do not make good producers. Is a trumpet player correct in that sense? Because I will go out and say that trumpet players will not make good producers, but you tell me that's very funny.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Trumpet players have a certain personality, I've noticed.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, really?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

I never thought about it as far as production or not, but yeah, especially lead trumpet players. But I think every instrument maybe, you know, if you were to round everyone up. Every instrument may have a little, you know, personality archetype, but artists will be. Yes, yes. But I don't. I don't have any, you know, I don't think that there's one instrument better than another when it comes to production. Yeah, it's just your interest.

[Kusha Navadar]

Let's talk about Diane Reaves for a second. In 1993, you co produced Diane Reeves's album Art and Survival. How did you two become connected originally?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Well, we met when I was 10 years old and she was in her late teens at the Wichita Kansas Jazz Festival. We were both guests with Clark Terry and we've been friends ever since. So it's been a very long friendship of coming up on 50 years. So that. Yeah, art, Survival. I co wrote a song and, you know, and did some co production, but then I can't remember the exact year, but I fully produced her album that day, which I believe was her first Grammy nomination. And that was, you know, a real pleasure for me. It was featuring Mulgren Miller on piano. I worked with Russell Ferrante from the Yellow Jackets on some arrangements and it was just a beautiful experience. And then recent, more recently, which I guess has been seven or eight years now, but her last album, Beautiful Life, I produced, which won her Grammy, and that's the Grammy that I won as a producer.

[Kusha Navadar]

Was the song Josa Lee, the one that you co wrote? Mm, yeah. We have a clip of the song Josa Lee by Diane Reeves. Can we play it? Okay, here it is.

[C]

We are.

[Kusha Navadar]

We just listened to Josa Lee. We're here with Terry Lynn Carrington. Terry Lynn, what do you remember about that song and your early work producing musicians other than yourself?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Oh, let's see. What do I remember hearing it in my head? I couldn't hear the clip as you played it, but I'm hearing the song in my head. You know, you're just trying to find that magic all the time. You know, you're trying to find the thing that makes something interesting, the thing that makes it danceable in varying styles. I don't mean. I mean anything can dance. Even free music has. Has A. A dance. It's a flow that you're trying to, you know, become like the. In one with, you know, it's a kind of a universal flow and rhythm. You know, that's how I think about it. So when I'm in rhythm with the universe, my life in general is in rhythm. But, you know, the same thing with music. When I'm in rhythm, like, you just, you know, something excites you over here, and then something excites you over here. I remember the horns. You know, we did the horn parts, and that really added a lot, you know, to the drum beat. And you may play a drum beat, and then you realize that's not quite the right one and you have to do it again. And when you play the right one, it locks. That's when you're. Yeah. And you're in that flow and you don't, you know, everything starts coming together.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

So I. I just remember that. Yeah, we collaborated, me, Diane and Eddie Del Barrio on that, and, yeah, we had a good time.

[Kusha Navadar]

Let's listen to another Diane Reeves song. This is Feels so Good Lifted from Beautiful Life. And I just want to point out, Terry Lynn, you can't hear the clips because it's just a zoom thing. So sorry about that, but I will ask you to set it up for us a little bit, maybe before our listeners can hear it. So anything you want to say about Feels so Good Lifted before we play it?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Sure. So this song, it was really interesting because. So we had a lot of sessions, some in New York, some in Boston, some in New Jersey. And we were coming to the end of the record, and we had a few songs that needed some tightening up. Long story short is I lost a hard drive. So if. If any budding producers are out there. I left the hard drive and hadn't backed the last session up, so I left it in a taxi and never got it back. And I was in the taxi with George Duke. We were talking about something, and I got excited and left it. But. So she had just recorded a vocal, you know, a duo piece, piano and vocals, the last song on the album. And when I lost. And we had a gig at Carnegie hall that night, she said, oh, yeah, well, we can do it again. You know, don't worry, but you're paying for it. And I'm not leaving Denver. So I had to fly the pianist out to Denver and fly out there. So I knew this was going to be the last session because now we were up to the end of the budget.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

And there was one song that needed a lyric still, which was feel so good. We had the hook, you know, the chorus, but we just. We didn't have the verses. And, you know, the whole time I'm reminding her, she said, I'm going to write it. Don't worry, I'm going to write it. When I got there, she hadn't written it. So I knew I didn't want to have to fly back to Denver. So we were on limited time and I asked the engineer to do the overdubs that we needed with her for about an hour. And I went and locked myself in a room and wrote the lyric. And I think that that just. I'm telling that story because as a producer, you know, you have to do so many different things. Now, if you're not able to write lyrics, then I guess that's one thing. But, you know, you have to just show up, focus and deliver, you know, as best you can. And for me, that was a classic example of the pressure and functioning well, you know, under the pressure.

[Kusha Navadar]

That's a wonderful story. Let's hear what came of that pressure. Here's Feel so Good Lifted.

[C]

Sometimes I get so tangled in my emotions Stuck in a why and who's to blame Powerless to change the natural motion Knowing that some things will never change so I let it go oh, yeah There are things you simply can't control and it feels so good I wanna stay lifted I wanna stay free.

[Kusha Navadar]

And there are those lyrics Feel so good lifted Necessity is the mother of invention and budget is the instigator of all good musical tracks, I guess. Feels so true yeah, that's what being a producer is. It's budget. Let's talk about your Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender justice work. Because you are the founder and artistic director of the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. Can you tell us what the mission of the Institute is?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Sure, we. Well, I started the Institute because after about 10 years or so of teaching at Berkeley, I finally realized if, you know, that I wasn't. How do I say this? I was replicating some of the things that were not great for some of the female students. I was teaching how I had been taught, which is, you know, just, you know, put your head down, plow through, be the best and don't worry about the rest. And I started talking more to young women at the college and understood better the barriers, the extra burdens that they carried, some of the things they were going through. And then I got kind of angry. Angry at myself, angry at some of the male Teachers that were not sensitive and just angry at the whole systemic reasons that are systemic, why jazz has a gender problem. So, yeah, started the institute to give them space to come be their authentic selves, to kind of help alleviate these extra burdens and a space where they could learn jazz without that kind of pressure.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

So we advocate and teach, mentor, advocate for people, not just women, but anybody that wants to study jazz with both racial justice and gender justice as guiding principles.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. You know, a small percentage of producers and engineers in the music industry are women, and fewer of them get. Get honors and awards for their work. Do you think something like an institute of production and gender justice would. Would make sense and what kind of things might if it existed?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Yes, absolutely. Because this problem with gender is pervasive, you know, throughout the industry in different ways. So many things have been gendered, like instruments, you know, playing drums, playing trumpet.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yep.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

And also, you know, with production and engineering and there's more and more female engineers. And, you know, you can look at the recording academy and you see the numbers are growing all the time. But of course, it's not equitable fully yet. So until that time, sure. Any other kinds of organizations or programs that are focused on this, it's very important.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, I'm looking at the clock. I want to make sure that we talk about your latest release, which is a new version of We Insist, the influential suite from drummer Max Roach. Can you tell me more about this project?

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Yes. You know, I was working on in 2024, 2023 and 2024, I was working on the next Social Science album. The Social Science is was two albums ago, and it was nominated for Grammy and got a lot of great critical acclaim. So was working on the second album with this group, and it dawned on me that Max Roach's centennial was happening. So because Social Science wasn't going to be finished quickly because it's a much more involved production and many guest artists, I decided to pivot and try to quickly do what I call, like, you know, more on the regular jazz album, when you go where you go in the studio and for a couple of days, you know, do a few overdubs and, you know, get it done quickly. And so I called, you know, some of the musicians I had signed to Candid Records, because I do a R for Candid. And I thought this would be a great way for all of us to come together and reimagine one of Candid's biggest records, which is We Insist, the original We Insist, which was, you know, also on Candid And Max Roach was a bit of a mentor for me as well, a good friend. And he tried to get me signed to Blue Note when I was 16 and, you know, he really supported me. So I thought, let's try to do this real quick. And it. I wanted the single to come out before his centennial was over, but it was over end of January, so we didn't quite make it. But it was better for it to have the right release opposed to just, you know, putting it out and nobody knowing about it. So this single came out last week and the actual album doesn't come out until June. And one cool thing is on one of the tracks we have Julian Priester, who was on the original, We Insist with Max Roach. And he's the last person that's still alive from that recording.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, wow. The single Freedom Day Part 1.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Yeah, he's not on that, though. He's on another song, Tears for Johannesburg. But Freedom Day Part 1 features the amazing Christy Dashiell. She's featured singing on the whole album. And she was an independent artist that was nominated for Grammy in Best Jazz Vocal this past year. And she's just great. And then also features Simon Molier on vibes, Matthew Stevens on guitar, Morgan Guerin on bass and woodwinds, and Melena Casado on trumpet.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, wonderful. Okay, Trump. Oh, there we go. That. He's talking to me. We have that. So. And I'm looking at the clock. I know you have a hard out at the top of the half hour here, so I'm gonna say goodbye to you, but we're gonna play you out with some of that track. So I've been speaking to drummer, composer and producer Terry Lynn Carrington for our Women's History Month series, Women in Music Production. Terry Lynn, thanks so much for all of your work and for us and walking us through it.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Oh, thank you very much. And I just want to say one more thing about Freedom Day. Sure. The original song, original version was very, very fast. So a lot of jazz, jazz heads would know that, but other people may not. So it was very, very fast. And the one thing I wanted to do is completely flip it. So we made it a ballad. And when you change the music that drastically, the lyric sounds different. You know, you. It creates a different meaning. So now this Freedom Day, which the original Freedom Day was dealing with the anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation and Juneteenth and those kinds of things. And this one, while it still is reflective of all of that, it also reflects some of the modern freedom movements and freedom struggles that we're facing today.

[Kusha Navadar]

That's. That's a wonderful stage setting and I appreciate it. So let's listen to some of it first. I'm going to say goodbye to you. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. We really appreciate it.

[Terri Lynn Carrington]

Thank you. Bye. Bye.

[Kusha Navadar]

Bye. And so here it is. Freedom Day. Let's listen.

[C]

Whisper listen whisper, listen Whisper say we're free Rumors flying Must be lying can it really be? Can't concentrate.