Equalizers: Wendy & Lisa On Producing Prince and the Revolution

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Equalizers: Wendy & Lisa On Producing Prince and the Revolution

Episode Title: Equalizers: Wendy & Lisa On Producing Prince and the Revolution
Release Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Wendy Melvoin, Lisa Coleman, Susan Rogers
Duration: Approximately 25 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the influential roles of Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman in the production of Prince and the Revolution’s seminal work, particularly focusing on the landmark album Purple Rain. As part of the Women's History Month series, "Women in Music Production," the conversation highlights the underrepresentation of women in technical fields within the music industry and celebrates the achievements of these trailblazing producers.

Women in Music Production: Setting the Stage

Alison Stewart introduces the series by emphasizing the importance of spotlighting women in music production, an area traditionally dominated by men. She acknowledges the first two women ever nominated for the Grammy Award for Producer of the Year—Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman—for their outstanding work with Prince and the Revolution.

Timestamp [00:37]:
Alison Stewart: "All throughout March, we'll be talking to women who work in the technical fields of the music industry, which they're severely underrepresented."

Wendy and Lisa: Pioneers in Production

Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman share their perspectives on their roles as producers during their time with Prince and the Revolution. Wendy discusses her innate interest in the technical aspects of music production, describing herself as an "autodidact kind of gearhead." She elaborates on how their partnership involved mutual producing, highlighting the collaborative nature of their work.

Timestamp [03:00]:
Lisa Coleman: "I never really thought of myself as a producer. I just thought I was a music maker."

Learning from Prince: Discipline and Technical Mastery

The conversation transitions to the lessons Wendy and Lisa learned while working with Prince. Wendy emphasizes the importance of thoughtful studio work and the invaluable knowledge gained from collaborating with skilled engineers like Susan Rogers.

Timestamp [04:39]:
Wendy Melvoin: "Prince was just, I mean, obviously he's a guy that could do it all himself. But there were some incredible lessons to be learned from his discipline and his thoughtfulness behind a board and how he ran a studio."

Lisa adds that Prince's fearless experimentation with studio technology inspired her to embrace and explore new tools without intimidation.

Timestamp [05:54]:
Lisa Coleman: "Just turn it on and start fiddling. If it sounds cool, you're on the right track."

Spotlight on Susan Rogers: The Engineer Behind the Magic

Susan Rogers, the esteemed engineer who worked closely with Wendy and Lisa, joins the conversation to reminisce about the Purple Rain sessions. She praises Wendy and Lisa's innate musicality and technical prowess, highlighting their ability to sculpt music with both "a gentle and firm hand."

Timestamp [12:12]:
Susan Rogers: "They are so deeply, innately musical... The way she coaxes music out of an instrument is astonishing."

Wendy and Lisa express their profound respect and admiration for Susan, acknowledging her technical expertise and heartfelt dedication to music production.

Timestamp [14:04]:
Lisa Coleman: "She just drilled a hole and somehow figured out how to do that. And you know, and, and so that's just amazing in itself."

Challenges and the Future of Women in Production

The discussion shifts to the broader topic of increasing female representation in music production. Susan Rogers candidly addresses the complexities of the issue, while Wendy and Lisa offer insightful perspectives on creating more opportunities for women.

Timestamp [17:23]:
Wendy Melvoin: "There are a lot of men that gotta make a little bit more room. There's, it's like, it's still, it's very similar to the cooking world and a lot of men chefs and women chefs."

Lisa emphasizes the need for education and changing default perceptions that associate production roles with men.

Timestamp [20:32]:
Lisa Coleman: "I think it's a matter of education and I think it's just going to take some time. And I think that for lots of people, women included, when you say who do you want to produce your record? In your mind, you automatically think a man producer."

Reflections on the Prince Documentary

Towards the end of the episode, Wendy and Lisa discuss their involvement in a documentary about Prince. They express mixed feelings about the project, acknowledging its complexities and the emotional challenges of revisiting their experiences with the iconic artist.

Timestamp [22:14]:
Wendy Melvoin: "I think it's a shame that it ended up being as complicated and fraught as it ended up being."

Lisa shares her motivations for participating, aiming to provide an honest perspective amidst widespread negativity surrounding Prince's legacy.

Timestamp [22:55]:
Lisa Coleman: "I wanted to share my point of view, you know, because there started to be a lot of negativity put out."

Conclusion

Alison Stewart wraps up the conversation by expressing gratitude for Wendy and Lisa's contributions, highlighting their pioneering roles in music production and their ongoing influence in paving the way for future generations of women in the industry.

Timestamp [25:16]:
Alison Stewart: "It has been an honor to speak with you."

Notable Quotes

• Wendy Melvoin: "We're kind of always producing each other as well, which is an interesting anomaly between the two of us as music partners."
• Lisa Coleman: "If it sounds cool, you're on the right track."
• Susan Rogers: "Working with Wendy and Lisa, you learn so much about music and the art of sound."

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Key Takeaways:

• Trailblazing Roles: Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman broke barriers as women in music production, earning Grammy nominations for their work with Prince and the Revolution.
• Collaborative Genius: Their partnership exemplifies mutual producing, combining technical expertise with deep musicality.
• Mentorship and Influence: Susan Rogers played a crucial role in shaping their production skills, highlighting the importance of mentorship in the industry.
• Challenges for Women: The episode underscores the ongoing challenges women face in music production and the need for systemic changes to foster greater inclusion.
• Legacy and Reflection: Wendy and Lisa’s reflections on their experiences with Prince provide invaluable insights into the dynamics of creative collaboration and the complexities of artistic legacies.

This episode not only celebrates the achievements of Wendy and Lisa but also serves as a call to action to support and amplify the voices of women in the technical realms of the music industry.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance]

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[WNYC Studios]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you are here. Coming up on the show today, we'll hear excerpts from our recent get lit with all of it book club conversation with author Imani Perry, as well as a special live performance from from Bilal and Esperanza Spaulding together. We'll also speak with Carson Lund, the co writer and director of the new film aofus. That's the plan. So let's get things started with Wendy and Lisa. We started this week off by kicking off our Women's History Month series, Women in Music Production. All throughout March, we'll be talking to women who work in the technical fields of the music industry, which they're severely underrepresented. Our first guest was Alicia, a 2025 Grammy nominee for Producer of the Year. Today we're with the first two women ever nominated for that award as part of Prince and the Revolution. For another installment of the Equalizers, we've got Wendy and Lis.

[Prince]

I never meant to call you in.

[WNYC Studios]

Your tomorrow.

[Prince]

I never meant to call you any pain.

[Alison Stewart]

Prince and the Revolution's Purple Rain came out in 1984 and earned the band an Album of the Year Grammy nomination the following year and as well as a nomination for Producer of the Year for the band. Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman were, of course, members of the Revolution before they stepped out as a duo on their own, releasing a series of albums on which they continue to serve as producers.

[Wendy Melvoin]

There are also Grammy and Emmy winners.

[Alison Stewart]

And we're joined now by Wendy and Lisa.

[Wendy Melvoin]

It is such a pleasure to have you.

[WNYC Studios]

Thanks, Alison. It's great to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

So the Revolution is officially credited as.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Producers on Purple Rain.

[Alison Stewart]

Wendy, back in those early days, did you think of yourself as producers or.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Was that just part of the music making process?

[WNYC Studios]

Well, that's a really good question because I think growing up, my ear kind of gravitated toward a producer's mind. I always heard things certain way and wanted to learn how to tweak certain things and was very interested in the actual recording process and all the Gear and the technical side was always very interesting to me. So I always kind of, I'm an autodidact kind of gearhead. So it wasn't, it wasn't sort of out of character for me to want to go in that direction. I kind of always do that. And as Wendy and Lisa, we're kind of always producing each other as well, which is an interesting anomaly between the two of us as, as, as music partners, we, we are always producing each other. So it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting question, but it's not far fetched from who I actually am.

[Wendy Melvoin]

How about for you, Lisa?

[Lisa Coleman]

Yeah, I'm more the sort of, it's all part of the same thing kind of person, I think, in terms of the whole arrangement usually. So it's, you know, just as the song happens, I think it's natural to serve the song and make it as good as it can be. And if that's what producing is, then that's what we do. But yeah, it's all part of the same thing for me. I never really thought of myself as a producer. I just thought I was a music maker.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Wendy, what did you learn about production while working with Prince and the revolution?

[WNYC Studios]

The thoughtfulness about what's happening in an actual recording studio. And a great engineer can teach you that. And we worked with some fine engineers and I think I learned a lot about how I can get the sounds that I want and arrangements that I want and musicians that could work for this or couldn't work for that or in. Prince was just, I mean, obviously he's a guy that could do it all himself. But there were some incredible lessons to be learned from his discipline and his thoughtfulness behind a board and how he ran a studio. So I learned a lot from that for sure. And you know, we had an engineer that we worked with for many years, Susan Rogers, that really taught me a lot about sound and about technique and I've carried that with me.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Hold the thought on Susan Rogers. We're going to talk about her in just a minute. Lisa, what is something from that time in your life that you still use today in your production in your music making?

[Lisa Coleman]

Oh, wow. Well, I was thinking, well, Wendy was talking, you know, also about what, what I've learned and part of the working in the studio is just not to be intimidated by the gear and what. And it was great because we were younger and Prince was fearless and he played the studio like an instrument. He was just all over it. And so to witness that and to have that be. The way that I learned was just great because, you know, I'm not afraid of pushing buttons and like, let's try this. Or, you know, just experimenting with the studio and not always, you know, being too intimidated by technology and, you know, like, I don't know how to work it. It really doesn't matter. Just turn it on and start fiddling. If it's. If it sounds cool, you're on the right track. That's where I'm at.

[Wendy Melvoin]

You're listening to another installment of our March series, Equalizers. I'm speaking to Wendy and Lisa, the first woman to be nominated for the Grammy for producer of the Year as part of Prince and the Revolution. Let's listen to a song from Purple Rain and we'll talk about it on the other side with a special gu. Here's let's Go crazy.

[Prince]

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to get through this thing called life. Electric word, life. It means forever and that's a mighty long time. But I'm here to tell you there's something else. The after world, a world of never ending happiness. You can always see the sun, day or night. So when you call up that shrink in Beverly Hills, you know the one I want. Doctor, everything will be all right. Instead of asking him how much of your time is left, ask him how much of your mind, baby. Cause in this life things are much harder living the after world. This life, life, you're on your own. And if the elevator tries to break.

[Alison Stewart]

You down, go crazy. I want to bring in another guest here. We're celebrating women in production and engineering all month. And if we're doing that, we're going to talk to engineer Susan Rogers. She has just been named by Wendy. Susan was Prince's staff engineer throughout the 80s and has engineered many other musicians, including David Byrne, Barenaked Ladies, and Wendy and Lisa. She's currently a professor in music production and engineer at Berklee School. Susan, welcome.

[Susan Rogers]

Hi, Allison. Hi, Wendy and Lisa, nice to join you all.

[WNYC Studios]

Hi, darling.

[Susan Rogers]

Hi.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan, what do you remember about the sessions around Purple Rain?

[Susan Rogers]

Oh, golly. It was such an intense time. And when I think back to it, that was over 40 years ago and we were young and we had that combination of seriousness that young people have and great doubt and then overconfidence and you pile all that together and then when you add the raw talent of Wendy and Lisa and Prince and the revolution, you combine all that. It's pretty potent mixture. We didn't realize it at the time, but we can look back on it now and realize, damn, we had it going on, didn't we?

[Alison Stewart]

Wendy, what do you remember about that time?

[WNYC Studios]

Well, she's. She's spot on. I would just. I would just add to the. The energy kind of like the. The system, the dynamics between everybody and what they were giving. Everybody gave their A game, so you knew what you were doing was something kind of otherworldly because you could just feel that It. It felt different than most stuff. And I'm sure every artist at some point in their career taps onto something that feels bigger than them. And that whole time felt bigger than all of us, but bigger than the sum, bigger than the one it was, the sum total of all of it. So I remember a million different things, but the energy was. Was huge.

[Alison Stewart]

Lisa, how about you?

[Lisa Coleman]

Yeah, yeah, right on. Everybody also, it was just. We worked from morning to night. It was. You know, it was all day, every day. It was. It was our life. That's how we spent our life. We woke up in the morning and went to the warehouse, and it was either recording, rehearsing, doing acting lessons, you know, doing dance lessons for the film. You know, all this stuff. It was a daily thing, and it was all day. So I just remember that being just a whole new kind of life.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan, you've also worked on Wendy and Lisa's albums.

[Wendy Melvoin]

We're gonna talk about them like they're not here.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think their skill set is?

[Wendy Melvoin]

What do they do better than anyone else?

[Susan Rogers]

Oh. Oh. They are so deeply, innately musical. When Lisa's on a keyboard, especially on piano, Wendy said it once. She pets the keys, you can just feel her heart going right to her hands. And the way she coaxes music out of an instrument is astonishing. It's really breathtaking. And Wendy. Wendy's skill set on guitar and her ear and her taste. And you can imagine her thinking as she plays, she's filtering all the things she might be playing and then deciding on, here's what would be perfect in this moment. You're. You're watching maestros. Is that. Is that the feminine pronunciation of maestro?

[Alison Stewart]

Let's do it.

[Susan Rogers]

Watching masters at work, When. When you work with them, it's. It's really amazing.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Okay, we're going to talk about you like you aren't here. Susan, Wendy, why was Susan the right person to work with on your albums after the revolution?

[WNYC Studios]

Because she's superlative. I mean, if you get a. Get a list in high school of who's the funniest, who's the best, who's this Susan's at the top of that list. And it was a no brainer for me and Lisa to use her because she has an incredible ability to learn the technical side of what she does, which, I mean, just listening to her talk and as a teacher, now anyone's blessed to have her as their teacher because the way she can explain something in terms for the, for the common man is spectacular. And in the studio it's very same. And her enthusiasm and the love that she cares and approaches everything from like a piece of gear to the sound coming through the speakers. I remember one time Susan was explaining to me how women and men differently hear low end and that women hear low end more of a. More warmth. And I've never forgotten that. And when I listen back to the albums that me and Lisa did with Susan, there's a kind of puffiness to the sound of those records, for lack of a better way to describe it, a puffiness that has a lot of warmth as well. But there's a punch to it that only, only at the time I could imagine, only Susan could have done. I've tried to recreate that kind of stuff and I've never been able to recreate the kind of ear she has. She has a singular ear.

[Alison Stewart]

Lisa, how about you?

[Lisa Coleman]

Oh, wow. I mean, I, I just can't say enough. And yeah, she's a unique creature. The, the, the, the amazing technical knowledge that she has. It. It's just incredible. She can build something out of nothing, you know, I asked her, I had a trouble, a problem with one of my keyboards back in the, in the 1900s, and things were very difficult back then. And she like just put a tuning knob on the front of my keyboard. She just drilled a hole and somehow figured out how to do that. And you know, and, and so that's just amazing in itself. And then her heart, the heart that she puts into everything. Wendy said she cares about everything that she does. She cares about the music and the way that you're doing the music. And then like, if you're hungry or something, like, she's the full package. She's just incredible person.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan, we have a song here that you worked on for Mother of Pearls called from your 1990 album, Erotica, if I'm saying correctly. What did you want to highlight this track?

[WNYC Studios]

Eroica.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Eroica. Thank you.

[Susan Rogers]

Yeah, we spent a lot of months on that album and it was delightful because it's wonderful working with Wendy and Lisa and you learn so much from them. Any, any technical professional who's worked with Them will admit how much they've learned about music and the art of sound from working with Wendy and Lisa. Every track on that record is. Is marvelous. I just picked this one because it's the most recent one I've listened to. They're all really fabulous. But this really does feature the best of what Wendy and Lisa do. And you'll hear that quality in it of sculpting music with a gentle and firm hand. You hear their musical minds at work, and that's always a treat.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Let's listen to Mother of Pearl.

[WNYC Studios]

Cold Stare makes light of this Size me and make sure that it fits. And I'll be so nonchalant.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan, before we let you go, something I wanted to ask you about. What is. Because you're a professor at Berkeley, what is something that we could do better to make more space for women in production?

[Susan Rogers]

Oh, gosh, Allison, that's a really hard question to answer. I know. I've been asked, and I'm sure Wendy and Lisa have, too, for over four decades. It's a complicated equation. There are reasons why women choose not to enter these fields, and then, of course, there are reasons why women want to and are blocked. But, wow, it's a bigger question than I can answer.

[Alison Stewart]

Susan Rogers is a professor in music production and engineering at Berkeley and a veteran of recording engineering. Susan, thank you so much for being with us.

[Susan Rogers]

Thank you for having me. And bye, buddies. I miss you guys.

[Lisa Coleman]

I love you, bud. Love you.

[Alison Stewart]

Wendy, did you want to answer that question? How we can make more room for women in production?

[WNYC Studios]

Susan's really correct. It's. We could spend an entire hour just talking about the difficulty and try and come up with some kind of master plan. We've been literally trying to figure this out for ages. And I think I've spent a lot of time in other studios now working with a lot of different people and trying to get my hands on producing other people. And there are a lot more engineers that are female that are coming up, and there are a handful of women coming up in the producer world that are getting their hands on more pop music. I'd like to be able to see more producers in different genres of music, not just in the pop world. Like, there's a lot of, like, DJ female DJs that are turning into producers, but they're doing a lot of dance music. I'd like to see a lot more women getting into a room that can, like, actually work with either a band or artists and do the best for the artist and get the best out of Their songs. You know, to get in the room with a woman who could produce a record as well as someone like Mitchell Froome could or, you know, there's, the list goes on and on and on. I think that we just need to allow women the room and the space and the encouragement to do it. And I think a lot of it, and I don't want. This is not like man, woman, blah, blah, blah. But a lot of the guys gotta, gotta make a little bit more room. There's, it's a, there's a little bit of a. I don't know, there just seems to be not as much room as I'd like to see some of the men give these women. There's, it's like, it's still, it's very similar to the, the cooking world and a lot of men chefs and women chefs. It seems to be. There's a, that's a very common thread between female producers and male producers. You could draw a correlation between male chefs and female chefs if you look at it closely.

[Wendy Melvoin]

That's interesting. What do you think, Lisa?

[Lisa Coleman]

Wow. Well, I think not to disparage men or anything, but get out of the way. I think it's a matter of education and I think it's just going to take some time. And I think that for lots of people, women included, when you say who do you want to produce your record? In your mind, you automatically think a man producer. You say who produced the record? You think it's a man. So I, I think it's going to take a long time before a lot of records are produced by women and people let go of the, just the automatic default goes to man.

[WNYC Studios]

That's true. And I, I would add too that, that because so many people are doing their records in their, in their houses now, I mean there's really everything is streaming and everybody doing everything in their room. Women are doing a lot more themselves. So it's just the 1%. They're actually getting really, really famous and being able to stream or actually get signed. I mean the women are out there, but the, the, you know, the 1% is, is almost non existent.

[Alison Stewart]

Wendy.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Lisa, we booked you months ago, not months ago, weeks ago to be a part of our series. But you happened to show up on a day that the daily. The New York Times did a podcast about Prince and the documentary that we will not see, we will not see for Netflix. You're in the documentary. It includes details about Prince, the women in his orbit, some complicated relationships. Wendy.

[WNYC Studios]

Indeed.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Have you had any thoughts about the Documentary? Never. It might never be seen.

[WNYC Studios]

Yeah, I've had many thoughts about it. I think it's a shame that it ended up being as complicated and fraught as it ended up being. I wish it hadn't ended up being that way. So many complications. I can't really get into the details of it because it could get me in trouble. But I will say that it's. There are. There are some magical moments in that documentary, and I hope at some point the world can see them.

[Wendy Melvoin]

Lisa, how did you decide to be part of the documentary?

[Lisa Coleman]

Wow. It took a long time. It took a lot of conviction, to be honest. I think Wendy and I were like the last interviews to be done, and there were a lot of reasons. I wasn't sure that it was time to do that big documentary. And we had just come off, like, touring and grieving and doing a lot of that processing, and I kind of was. Needed a break from it.

[WNYC Studios]

We were pretty raw.

[Lisa Coleman]

Yeah, we were pretty raw emotionally about the whole thing. But I decided to be part of it because I felt like I had a real honest opinion and experience of Prince. And I wanted to share my point of view, you know, because there started to be a lot of negativity put out and, you know, so that was a little difficult.

[Alison Stewart]

Wendy, did you want to add something?

[WNYC Studios]

I'm just in wholehearted agreement with Lisa. There was a lot of difficulty around it, and it was true. Lisa and I were kind of the last holdouts. And I think it was Questlove that came up to me and Lisa, like, at the ninth hour and said, could you guys just please, please do it. You know, it's part of. You're the legacy. You gotta. You guys gotta do this. And we were like, okay, let's. Let's go for it. But we were the holdout. We didn't know that it would be the right time. And that's not. I mean, not to say that what Ezra did or what anybody's involvement was, was wrong. It was just basically, for me and Lisa, wasn't time. We were kind of holding on to, like, our experience of it. And we just was like, Jesus, at our time to be involved in that. Is this the right thing for the Wendy and Lisa to do? It was, you know, dare I say, slightly more selfish, I guess.

[Alison Stewart]

I appreciate your honesty for that. Thank you so much for answering those questions. I've been speaking with Wendy and Lisa, the first one to be nominated for gram. The Grammy for Producer of the Year as part of Prince and the Revolution. It has been an honor to speak with you.

[WNYC Studios]

It really has.

[Alison Stewart]

I appreciate your time today.

[WNYC Studios]

Oh, thanks, Alison.

[Lisa Coleman]

Thank you so much. I'm so honored.

[Progressive Insurance]

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