Ava Victor (2:57)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (2:58)

What was special about Maine?

Ava Victor (3:01)

Well, the thing about the east coast that I think is so special is it can skew romantic and cozy and old and like a little nest. And it can also skew kind of horrific. And being able to play along that spectrum of tone was really meaningful to me. Like, it feels ancient, but it feels like also there's, like, secrets. And I really enjoyed being able to play with that in the film and have a cottage, feel like the cottage in the holiday in moments in that film, and then also have it feel sort of like a house of horrors in moments when the character is feeling scared or when the character is feeling safe. So it felt like the right setting for a film that deals with many, many feelings.

Alison Stewart (3:54)

When you were writing this film, when did you realize, yep, Agnes, it's me. I'm the actor?

Ava Victor (4:00)

Well, you know, when you write it, you never think it's going to get made. So I wrote it with my sort of. You know, it's very interesting because as people talk to me about the film, they're like, agnes is so awkward. And I'm like, well, I didn't. I didn't know that. Like, that wasn't totally something I understood, but thank you for letting me know. And I think I wrote it with. With my voice in mind. But that was always. That was always on the table. I was always saying, you know, I want to play this role. This means a lot to me. And it was. It took me a little longer to figure out, okay, yeah, I am wanting to direct this. I just have to prepare to do this because I've never done it before. So that. That was a little bit more. That was a little bit more of a challenge to wrap my head around. But then once I did, I realized I desperately wanted to direct it. I felt I just had to learn how to do that. But I quickly wanted to do it.

Alison Stewart (4:50)

Were you frightened to do it?

Ava Victor (4:52)

Of course I'm frightened of many, many things. Yeah, I was scared. I think the main thing I was worried about is the story means so much to me, and I didn't want to sacrifice anything. Like, I didn't want something to be forgotten because I was taking on too much. So that led me to prepare a great, great deal for two years to. To be ready to do both things. And. And I had a huge, amazing team of brilliant people supporting me and doing it and understanding that the task was big. And so people were very game to help me to Help me when I couldn't see or couldn't be somewhere. So it was, it was, it took a, took a big group to make it work.

Alison Stewart (5:37)

What's an example of, of being prepared that you knew you had to be prepared.

Ava Victor (5:43)

I, you know, I storyboarded the whole film, every image. And I shadowed a good friend, Jane Schoenbrun, who while they were shooting their film, I saw the TV glow. And that was a huge help in learning how set runs. And they are an incredibly confident filmmaker and like a visionary. And it was really nice to just ingest some of the ripple effects of what it looks like when someone's doing what they're meant to do in that way. And me and my DP prepared the film and shot listed for basically years beforehand. I had amazing producers who were very interested in helping me get ready to direct the film as I wanted to. I was very lucky with that.

Alison Stewart (6:30)

I'm speaking to Eva Victor, director, writer and star of the film. Sorry Baby, it's in theaters now. The cat cast is great. Chemistry is really important in this film. Right. So you have Lucas Hedges, who's a sweet guy who kind of has a crush on Agnes, and Naomi Ackey, who's your best friend. Capital best, yes. How do those actors come aboard?

Ava Victor (6:53)

I mean, okay, Naomi Acke is I think the best actor we have. And we met and I felt immediately like I was sort of in love with her and I wanted her to like me and I just thought she was so warm and so smart and just so special. And then we read together and there was this, this sort of magical thing that happened where it just felt like these people locked into place. And I always said Agnes to me is the moon and Lydia is the sun. So we were looking for the sun and she is just the warmest, kindest, most patient, beautiful, most vulnerable actor ever. And it luckily just felt sort of like fireworks immediately. And that never felt hard. It was very easy with her. And I'm so, I feel so lucky because it's a very. It takes a very particular person to trust a first time filmmaker because they have no proof this person can do it. So it takes a very special actor and a very brave actor to jump in and give them self to a first time filmmaker. And Lucas, I mean, he's a legend. And I wrote him a very long letter and.

Alison Stewart (8:09)

Because he hasn't been in a lot of things recently and I thought it was really interesting.

Ava Victor (8:14)

Yeah, he's, he's. He has impeccable taste. And I feel so lucky that he said yes. And he understood it. And I think he just. The. The role fit him like a glove. And I. It was such a joy. I got to work with him for, like, five days. It wasn't enough. It was. It was so joyful. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (8:31)

The film shows what her life is like during this three year period. And it's at different points in her life. It's not linear. Why did you choose that format?

Ava Victor (8:41)

I wanted the film to start with this explosion of friendship, and I wanted to let the audience in on that kind of intimate, romantic joy that two friends have together. And I think in talking about this kind of trauma, we as people tend to flatten people who've been through this kind of experience, I think, without meaning to. But we paint people as tragic figures when we know that this is what's happened to them, because I think we're afraid that if they're a whole person, that means it could happen to us or someone we love. And I wanted to give Agnes and Liddy this fighting chance at being whole people that you fall in love with. And the film is meant to have a bit of joy in it and to have humor in it, which for me feels like a bit of a rebellion against the heaviness of the subject. And so starting off with these two people, and hopefully you feel so connected to them and you feel like they're wrapping you in a big hug. So that when we get into the harder stuff, we see them as these complicated, like, big people. So that meant a lot to me to start there. And there are all these little, like, ghosts that you see in the first chapter that maybe don't make sense upon first viewing. We see pages on a window, we see Boots by a door, we see a cat and we see a sandwich that we don't know where it came from. And hopefully the audience feels along enough and that they're patient enough to make it to the answers to those sort of ghosts. Like, you get the answers as you watch the film, which felt true to me in terms of how the world works. We never really know what feels heavy to someone and what doesn't. Like, why does. Why do Boots feel heavy to this person? We find out later. And I wanted each chapter to function in a subjective way for how Agnes is feeling. Time works in that chapter. Like, there's a jury scene that kind of feels like it's like two hours long, because I think Agnes feels very stuck in that moment. And then there's another chapter where many, many things happen and she gets a promotion and she gets, you know, like, people go through huge life transitions in this one chapter. And I hope that it feels like time is moving in a way that Agnes has experienced time, and the film is reflecting that back to us.

Alison Stewart (11:11)

Let's listen to a clip from. Sorry, baby. This features Agnes and Lucas Hedges as her neighbor Gavin. And this is the first time they meet. She's at his house. She's looking for lighter fluid. You'll understand later. Well, you'll understand. Let's listen.

Ava Victor (11:31)

You're my neighbor, right?

Lucas Hedges (11:33)

Yeah, I live here.

Ava Victor (11:34)

What's your name?

Lucas Hedges (11:35)

Oh, Gavin.

Ava Victor (11:37)

Gavin. Nice to meet you. You too.

Lucas Hedges (11:39)

I'm Agnes Lamb of God.

Ava Victor (11:44)

What?

Lucas Hedges (11:44)

That's nothing. It's all good. I'm just. What are you up to this fine evening?

Ava Victor (11:50)

Oh, I was wondering, do you have, like, stuff that makes a fire? Oh.

Lucas Hedges (11:58)

Matches?

Ava Victor (11:59)

No, like a liquid. Is that a thing?

Lucas Hedges (12:02)

Oh, yes. Lighter fluid.

Ava Victor (12:04)

Yes. Do you have that?

Lucas Hedges (12:05)

Yes. Why, do you need it?

Ava Victor (12:10)

My friends and I, we're gonna make, like, a hot dogs.

Lucas Hedges (12:12)

Oh, hot dog sounds good.

Ava Victor (12:15)

I'm sorry. We only bought two hot dogs.

Lucas Hedges (12:17)

Oh, no, that's no problem. I have dinner plans with my mom. That's not true. I'm sorry. I just wanted to close myself off from the possibility of being rejected.

Ava Victor (12:28)

That's no problem.

Alison Stewart (12:30)

There's so much going on. There's so much going on in that film. And that scene.

Ava Victor (12:35)

I can't believe we listened to it. I've never just listened to it without. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's like a play, kind of.

Alison Stewart (12:42)

What did you think when you heard it?

Ava Victor (12:43)

It's interesting. It's just that, like, the dialogue, clean dialogue, you know, it's interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

Alison Stewart (12:50)

We have. You know what? When we look for films, we look for movie clips. We have to find those. Those times when you can really understand what's happening without a visual.

Ava Victor (12:59)

Yes, of course. You guys do it all. Good work.

Alison Stewart (13:02)

Thank you. What did you want us to understand about the tone of the film from that passage?

Ava Victor (13:11)

Mm. I think there is a. I mean, the Lucas and the Agnes and Gavin, that little relationship functions to me as a bit of, like a rom com amidst the drama. And I think the film is meant to be quite loving and it's meant to be funny. And I hope that. I think we, like, are talking a lot about the heaviness of the film. And I spent a lot of time trying to consider how my audience would feel watching the film and make specific choices to try to prevent their body from feeling shocked and scared. I made the film for a Version of myself that I think desperately needed a film that talked about these big feelings, but didn't show me something that was so devastating that it sent my body into shock and made me shut down. So there are many moments in the film that are meant to keep you there and keep you present and keep you feeling safe so that you can enjoy it and hear the film for what it is. And I like that. I got to give the main character this neighbor who's very loving and very much like a little puppy dog. Who is kind of obsessed and also can't always read the room, but is purely kind. So, yeah, it's nice to hear a little bit of that.

Alison Stewart (14:48)

Today I'm speaking to Ava Victor. She's the director, writer, and star of the film Sorry, Baby, which is in theaters now. I have a question for Ava, the writer. You referred to it as the bad thing that happens to her or something bad happened to Agnes. Why was that the language you wanted to use?

Ava Victor (15:10)

Yeah, it's interesting because there's sort of like. Honestly, I've talked to some male reporters about this and there. And some people's take about it is that they think Agnes isn't ready to use the real words for it. And that that's a sign of, like, denial. And I feel the exact opposite about it. I feel like Lydia and Agnes have very thoughtfully created their own language around it that keeps them feeling safe while talking about it. And I think that talking about it and saying the bad thing is a way to protect each other through conversations about it. It's the language that makes them feel like it's their own special little thing. And the only person in the film that betrays that language the film establishes. Is this kind of cruel doctor who uses words that feel very sharp. So for me, it's like another way that they're creating a bubble of safety for each other. And I think the words we have language is quite limiting. And it feels very scary to. And very clinical in a lot of ways. And I wanted the two best friends to find their way through it in a way that they're talking about Agnes's experience of the bad thing. It's not this. It's not this desensitized sort of clinical term. It's a. It's their experience of what happened. And it's very particular and personal.

Alison Stewart (16:41)

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Naomi's character is like, have a seat, Doctor.

Ava Victor (16:47)

I know. She's amazing. It was a really fun scene to shoot. Despite it being quite heavy. It was very fun. We Had a laughing attack during it, which was kind of inappropriate. But it's the way through. It's the way through.

Alison Stewart (16:57)

Something that I appreciated as a viewer was that we don't necessarily see the assault. We see the house from afar, going through all of the different times of day. You go in and you come out much later. We see the light get dark. We see. It was very affecting.

Ava Victor (17:16)

Thank you.

Alison Stewart (17:17)

Why did you choose to go that route? There are many different ways you could have shown that assault.

Ava Victor (17:25)

Why did you go that route? I knew coming into the film that I was never going to show that. It just was. Part of the reason I wrote the film was to say, can we not see that and maintain dramatic tension and feel everything we need to feel without it being, like, super triggering? I also. I also couldn't make sense of the idea that, like, okay, so if there's a camera in that house, whose eyes are those? Like, are we watching from some objective perspective? That didn't make sense to me. And then the idea of doing something from, like, a POV just was never something I wanted to do because it's too intense and too painful and just wasn't. It wasn't what my heart wanted. So the reason I chose to shoot it that way is because I do think in our world, we very rarely get to be behind the closed door. Like, we hear what people have to say about what they experienced, and that's what we get. And that's one of the reasons it really meant a lot to me that the film believes Agnes's words without having to see it. And I wanted to make a film that believes in her experience of that time. And, yeah, I also. I also think, like, it felt cruel. It felt cruel to. To be ahead of Agnes at any point. I wanted us to be emotionally with her and not ahead of her. Like, I wanted her to be able to share what happened to her when she feels safe, which is with Lydia in this bathtub, but not before that. Like, we shouldn't know something she doesn't know. So, yes, it was kind of the ethos of the film exists in that image. And we spent a lot of time, me and my dp, Mia, Chofi, Henry, we spent a lot of time figuring out her travel back to her house and how to keep her face concealed and to just have this big moment of vulnerability when we finally see her face, and that is when she feels safe. So a lot. We were trying to take care of her through that time.

Alison Stewart (19:31)

What do you think happens to Agnes.

Ava Victor (19:35)

In the future?

Alison Stewart (19:36)

Yeah, you know, or in the film, it's like, is she stuck? Does she not want to remember? Does she only want to remember sometimes? Is she cut off from feeling what happens to her?

Ava Victor (19:50)

You know, I think she's moving at a pace that is glacial and that's all she can do. And I think the idea that she survived, that she survives in a daily way, is quite heroic for me. And it was a real choice and joy to be able to give Liddy this sort of explosion of experience in these five years. She goes from not knowing she's queer to kind of bursting to New York and being who she is. And then she gets to, like, have this manifestation of this love in this physical way, and she has so much happen. And that, to me, was exciting to give her that kind of love story. But then also side by side with Agnes, it sort of highlights. Agnes is seriously trying to. To get. To get through today. And the image of the film I always had before we made it, with Agnes as this person who's staring out of a window, looking outside, and two things are true at once, which is that she desperately wants to leave and be a part of the world, but she desperately wants to stay inside and not engage because it's too much out there. So I think many things are happening at once, but it's about sort of. She does get up and she does do her things, and she has moments of real joy and relief amongst the hard moments and that. And that is, I guess, what it is to be here. I'm trying to figure it out still.

Alison Stewart (21:29)

But I have to ask about this woman, Natasha in the film.

Ava Victor (21:33)

Yes, sure, let's go.

Alison Stewart (21:36)

Natasha is a grad school cohort who is so wildly jealous of Agnes and of everything. She's just jealous, period. That is how you would describe her. How does Natasha's jealousy help us understand Agnes a little better?

Ava Victor (21:56)

Well, I do believe Natasha is a mirror, as are many people in the film. But. But I think we all are her. Like, I think we all have her in us, and she happens to be Agnes's Natasha, but Agnes is a Natasha to someone. You know, we all. We all are Natasha, I think. And, yeah, I think hopefully what happens in the film is that you see this person and you're like, man, she is not functioning in the way that she needs to function. She is distancing people, Natasha. I mean, and she is totally jealous and acting totally bizarre. And then we get this sort of moment later on in the film where hopefully a bit of complexity opens itself up to us and we understand a bit how she got to be so, so weird because she's been having to function and had her own experience with this professor that. That we kind of get a little moment of insight into. And I. I hope that it feels like we've been judging someone for how they're acting, and really they are going through something as well just alongside Agnes, and Agnes is who we are looking at. But if we moved the world, like, Natasha would be the hero, you know, and that. That always meant a lot to me. And Kelly McCormack took that role and just, like, flew with it. And her outfits are all Kelly and Emily, the costume designer. And I think that I wrote the role in inspiration. There's, like, a character in Three Sisters named Natasha Chekhov's Three Sisters that I love. Such a deliciously devastating character. And then also in Singing in the Rain, the character of Lina Lamont was also a model.

Alison Stewart (23:42)

She's my favorite.

Ava Victor (23:43)

She's the best character we have.

Alison Stewart (23:45)

And I can't stand him. She's the best.

Ava Victor (23:47)

And he's. She's just so perfect. And. And there's, like, that scene where she goes into RF's office and singing the rain. She's like. It says it right there, like, in the newspaper. And she's so happy. And seeing her smile.

Alison Stewart (24:01)

And Kelly got more money than Calvin Coolidge put together.

Ava Victor (24:05)

Put together? No, she's perfect. And, like, there's this moment where Kelly, who plays Natasha, comes into the office and we finally see her smile, and it's just like, intensity to seeing this character smile for the first time. And Lena does that, too. And so, yeah, I'm glad you know, Lena. It's very. It's a very special role. Yes.

Alison Stewart (24:25)

Before I let you go, this is a nice segue into the music from the film. The music is being released on vinyl.

Ava Victor (24:31)

Yes. It's so exciting. I mean, Leah's score is, in my opinion, transcendent, and it completely made the film whole in a way that I could have only dreamed of. And, yes, it's coming out on vinyl, and there's notes from me and Leah in it, and they put a bunch of their temp tracks in it, so you get a sense of how I want to say the sausage got made, but that doesn't seem like a thing I want to say, but I'm saying it. And there's also, like, a very psychotic voice note I took when I was driving on a highway trying to explain something, so you get a lot of insight into it. And it's printed on the New England blue sky. Vinyl. So I'm feeling very excited. Yes.

Alison Stewart (25:11)

And people can get that soon?

Ava Victor (25:13)

Yes. I don't know when, but seriously, they're gonna get mad at me for not knowing. But soon, I swear.

Alison Stewart (25:18)

The name of the movie is Sorry Baby. It's in theaters now. I've been speaking with its writer, director and star, Ava Victor. Ava, it was really nice talking to you.

Ava Victor (25:27)

So nice talking to you. Thank you for this.

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