Exploring the Mind of Groundbreaking Performer Andy Kaufman

Summary

All Of It: Exploring the Mind of Groundbreaking Performer Andy Kaufman

Host: Tiffany Hansen (in place of Alison Stewart)
Guest: Alex Braverman, Director of Thank You Very Much
Release Date: March 27, 2025

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Introduction to Andy Kaufman and the Documentary

In this episode of All Of It, Tiffany Hansen delves into the enigmatic world of Andy Kaufman with filmmaker Alex Braverman, who has recently completed Thank You Very Much, a documentary that offers fresh perspectives on Kaufman's life and legacy. The conversation opens with a brief overview of Kaufman's influence in American comedy, highlighting his unconventional performances and the blurred lines between reality and performance that he masterfully navigated.

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Opening with the Climax: A Deliberate Choice

The documentary begins intriguingly with Kaufman's voice discussing the structure of film, stating, “[00:23] Andy Kaufman: We start with the climax and then there’s a minute of silence.” This choice sets the tone for the film's unconventional narrative style.

Alex Braverman explains, “[02:20] he wants to play with your idea of expectation and structure… we just wanted to open with a bit that no one had seen before to signal this is a film that's going to have a lot of material on Kaufman that you weren't aware of.” This approach mirrors Kaufman's own methods of challenging audience expectations and creating a unique viewing experience.

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Non-Linear Storytelling: Emulating Kaufman's Style

Braverman discusses the film’s mostly linear but occasionally non-linear structure, which aims to present Kaufman’s career before delving into his personal life. He notes, “[04:12]... the film is structured in a way where we don't begin at the beginning of his life, we really begin at the beginning of his career.” This method helps viewers understand Kaufman's evolution as a performer, drawing connections between his early work and his personal experiences.

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Uncovering Unseen Footage: The Vault of Andy Kaufman

A significant part of the documentary’s appeal lies in its newly uncovered footage. Braverman recounts his eight-and-a-half-year journey to access this material, describing the discovery of “[06:03] box after box that had the letter K on it… it took months and months to sift through everything.” This extensive archive includes candid home videos and previously unseen interviews, providing a deeper insight into Kaufman's life and creative process.

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The Complex Relationship with His Father

One of the most poignant moments Braverman shares is the discovery of footage featuring Andy’s father, Stanley Kaufman. “[09:27] The first reel I pulled out… was Andy's father… I just got chills and goosebumps… there's a scene in the movie where… Andy and his father had a really tough relationship, especially when he was a teenager.” This revelation adds emotional depth to the documentary, showcasing the reconciliation between Andy and his father, contradicting the earlier narrative of a purely estranged relationship.

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The Title: Thank You Very Much

The documentary's title, Thank You Very Much, encapsulates Kaufman's dual nature as both an entertainer and a complex individual. Braverman explains, “[12:05]… 'thank you very much' became a little bit of a mantra that was just popping up all over the place… it's such a showbiz phrase that has great meaning and no meaning at all.” The phrase serves as a recurring motif throughout the film, symbolizing the ambiguous and multifaceted aspects of Kaufman’s persona.

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Embarrassment as a Tool for Engagement

A recurring theme in Kaufman's work is the use of embarrassment to capture and manipulate audience reactions. Braverman elaborates, “[16:05] what all of his work is about… is demanding your total attention… embarrassment functions as a way to really suck you in.” Kaufman's ability to make audiences feel awkward or uncomfortable was not an end in itself but a strategy to engage them more deeply with his performances.

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Silence and Participation: A Unique Approach to Comedy

Kaufman's use of silence is another innovative technique discussed in the documentary. “[25:13] silence… is creating room for ideas to bubble to the surface… he uses silence as a tool to get the audience invested and get the audience participating in their own silent way.” This method breaks conventional comedic timing, inviting the audience to become active participants in the performance rather than passive observers.

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Performance as Continuous: Beyond the Stage

Braverman shares anecdotes that illustrate Kaufman’s belief that performance extends beyond formal settings. “[26:09] Andy would take his Carnegie Hall audience out for milk and cookies after the show… the performance continued to take place after the show was over.” This philosophy underscores Kaufman's view that life itself is a stage, and every interaction is part of an ongoing performance.

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Legacy and Intent: Kaufman's Enduring Mystery

The documentary emphasizes Kaufman's intention to be remembered as a performance artist who blurred the lines between reality and fiction. “[14:27] It's what keeps it going. It's what keeps it alive… all of his performances and material is designed to be remembered and to echo out basically forever.” Kaufman’s deliberate ambiguity and mysterious persona ensure his lasting impact on the world of entertainment.

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Intersection of Entertainment and Enlightenment

In a thought-provoking segment, Kaufman explores the value of entertainment in an enlightened world. “[20:42] Andy Kaufman: What is the value of entertainment? If everybody was enlightened, would there be any need for entertainment like comedy and tragedy…” This philosophical inquiry highlights Kaufman's deep thinking and his ability to intertwine humor with profound questions about human existence.

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Conclusion: The Endless Show

The episode wraps up with the notion that Kaufman’s influence is perpetual. “[27:25] The show never ends… this is the real Andy Kaufman.” Braverman and Hansen reflect on Kaufman’s enduring legacy, affirming that his unique approach to performance continues to inspire and perplex audiences decades later.

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Notable Quotes

• Andy Kaufman
  “[00:23] We start with the climax and then there’s a minute of silence.”

• Alex Braverman
  “[02:20]… we just wanted to open with a bit that no one had seen before… this is going to go up and down and left and right and all over the place.”

• Andy Kaufman
  “[20:42] What is the value of entertainment? If everybody was enlightened, would there be any need for entertainment like comedy and tragedy…”

• Alex Braverman
  “[16:05] what all of his work is about… is demanding your total attention… embarrassment functions as a way to really suck you in.”

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Thank You Very Much promises to be a definitive documentary on Andy Kaufman, offering unprecedented access to his personal archives and shedding new light on his innovative approach to comedy and performance art. Through insightful interviews and rare footage, Alex Braverman captures the essence of a performer who continues to intrigue and inspire, embodying the true spirit of All Of It—a show about culture and its multifaceted creators.

Transcript

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[Tiffany Hansen]

Listener supported WNYC Studios. This is all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart today. In the pantheon of American comedy, few acts have raised more eyebrows than Andy Kaufman. From his iconic rendition of the Mighty Mouse theme song on SNL to his brash, aggressive, and just plain mean alter ego, Tony Clifton, Kaufman found the funny in some pretty strange and often very uncomfortable spaces. He wanted to leave his audiences wondering where the bit ended and where reality began. He even saw his very real terminal disease, lung cancer, as an opportunity to mess with people toying with the possibility of faking his own death. The film, thank you very much, directed by Alex Braverman, brings fresh insight and never before seen footage to the screen, including interviews with his closest friends and colleagues. Andes, by the way, not Alex's, I'm assuming. Alex, we didn't put all your friends in here, Right. It's been getting some praise at film festivals since 2023 and will now be released tomorrow at limited theaters. Alex Braverman is here to discuss the film and the life of one, one of entertainment's most enigmatic figures. And the director is Alex Braverman. Alex, we're glad you're here.

[Alex Braverman]

Thanks for having me.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right, let's talk about Andy Kaufman. So the film opens with Andy, I assume it's his voice, right, Talking about the structure of film. And he says we start with the climax and then there's a minute of silence. He calls for a minute of silence. So what is he, first of all, what's he talking about there? And why did you want to start with that? What does it illustrate about him that you think like, we just got to get right out of the gate?

[Alex Braverman]

Well, I believe that he. Right out of the gate. He wants to play with your idea of expectation and structure. I think for someone walking into the improv or catch a rising star in the 70s that was unaware of him. They're coming in with a certain expectation of what is your job as a performer and what is my job as an audience member. And, you know, there's an expectation of how this is going to go. And I think we just wanted to open with, with a bit that a no one had seen before to just sort of signal this is a film that's going to have a lot of material on Kaufman that you weren't aware of, and B, to sort of set the mood and say, this is going to go up and down and left and right and all over the place. But at the end, you know, you'll be left with something special.

[Tiffany Hansen]

I want to talk about his call for silence there in a little bit, but let's talk about that. Up and down and all over the place. You take us through his life in a mostly linear way, but not totally linear. I'm curious why you decided to do that and how you see that as different. You know, we're talking about stuff that people haven't seen in other documentaries. Why? How you think that differs, what you've got here versus the other documentaries that have been done about him?

[Alex Braverman]

Well, you know, it's 2025. He hasn't been around since 1984. And I think for a lot of people my age, which I'll just leave that vague for now. But, you know, my generation was introduced to him in the late 90s with man on the Moon. And I'm aware of the fact that there are a lot of people around who remember him from snl. And then there are a lot of people who are going to be coming to this film.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Taxi.

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah, Taxi. Of course, there's going to be, hopefully, people coming to this film that aren't aware of him at all.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah.

[Alex Braverman]

And so the film is structured in a way where, you know, we don't begin at the beginning of his life, we really begin at the beginning of his career. Because I feel like to understand his story, his life story, you actually kind of need to understand who he was as a performer before diving into his upbringing, his childhood, to understand why he was the way he was. So that's how it's structured. It sort of begins, you know, the way it would if you were walking into one of those clubs in the 70s, a little bit cold and sort of bringing your expectations of what that should feel like and then helping.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Where was. Did we. Did you. Yeah, did you answer. Where was that taken from? What was that a bit. Was that one of his bits in the 70s? Where was that taken from?

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah, I mean, are you. Do you mean the sort of bombing routine?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah, that we start at the climax and then.

[Alex Braverman]

Oh, okay. Well, that footage, interestingly enough, was from the mid-70s. It was shot in Los Angeles in a home that he shared at the time with Richard Bamer, who was Tony in West side Story, and then also Benjamin Horne on Twin Peaks. And he's a fellow transcendental meditator, just like Kaufman. And so they wound up roommates in the mid-70s, before either of them were the names, the household names that we know now. But it was just sort of goofing around home video footage.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Oh, okay. So not a. Not a bit like in a club or.

[Alex Braverman]

Okay, no, it was just very candid home movies.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, let's talk about this new footage that you have. You have a lot of it, right? Mm. So tell us how you got that and how you kind of sifted through it.

[Alex Braverman]

Well, I've been working on this film for a long time. Eight and a half years. And it, you know, it started as an idea in 2016. Some reach out. And then in 2017, I traveled to Lake Tahoe and interviewed Bob Zimuta and Lynn Margulies there. That was the first bit of production. And at the end of two days at Bob's home, he. He had been speaking about, quote, unquote, the vault this whole time. All this material, it's in the vault. And I didn't really know if he was legend building or if this was a true physical vault. And at the end of the weekend, he took me to a room in his house on the ground floor and sort of said, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna open this door for you, and I'm gonna show you what's inside. But you can't go in here. But he did open the door, and it was like, you know the scene in Pulp Fiction where they open the briefcase and you just see the gold reflecting in my eyes, and it was just box after box that had the letter K on it and it. To convince him to let me in there. It took years, actually. But then ultimately, when production really kicked off, my producer and I, Lauren Belfer, we drove back to Tahoe and just loaded a van full of those boxes, and it took months and months and months to sift through everything that was in there.

[Tiffany Hansen]

There have been. We've said this, folks may know there have been other documentaries made about him. So what do you think it was in your argument to, first of all, tell us who. Remind us who Bob Zmuda is, and then tell us what you think was so compelling about your argument to him that he was willing to let you drive away with it in a van.

[Alex Braverman]

Well, let's separate that out a little bit. There are films that have been made about him, notably man on the Moon.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right.

[Alex Braverman]

Jim and Andy. Incredible film, I would say, is partly about him. But more so, in my opinion, about Jim Carrey becoming him. And then there have been some other documentary programs like A. E. Biography, E. True Hollywood Story type things, but I didn't feel like there was the definitive feature documentary treatment ever given to him. And. And I. I really wanted to take a whack at giving him his due. And I think when I showed up at Bob's house, and Bob was. Was Andy's creative collaborator, writer, good friend for 10 years. When I showed up at his house, you know, I had watched everything that I could at that point. I had read every book you could read. You know, I. I was just quite familiar, and I had a lot of questions. And I think it was just a combination of showing up prepared, but also, you know, we're 40 years out at this point from. From 1984, and I think he was just sort of ready to tell the story and hand over the reins. And, you know, with Lynn, Andy's girlfriend, being on hand this weekend as well, I think she was like, this is someone that kind of sees this story the way that we do. And they both just sort of decided eventually, let's. Let's work with this guy.

[Tiffany Hansen]

What's the first reel you pulled out?

[Alex Braverman]

Wow. You know, I can't remember the first reel I pulled out, but I can tell you the first reel I remember having, like, a visceral reaction to. There were quite a few people that I wish we could have spoken to for the making of the film that had unfortunately already passed away. And. And one of them was Andy's father, Stanley. And Bob and Lynn. Bob Smitta and Lynn Margulies, over the years have filmed interviews with just tons of people getting their stories and recollections, almost like an oral history. And when I pulled up the. The tape of Andy's father, I just got chills and goosebumps. And I still do. I mean, I don't want to give too much away from the movie, but there's a scene in the movie where, you know, the legend is that these two, Andy and his father had a really tough relationship, especially when he was a teenager in early 20s. And I found this story of them coming back together and how he tells the story of how. And it just was so moving to me. And this was early on in the process of going through the archival. And that's when I kind of knew, like, okay, this is just gonna be a process of sifting for gold. Like, there's so much valuable emotional stuff in here.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Was his dad like him? Was he. Did he that kind of quirky, weird.

[Alex Braverman]

No, his. His whole family, his. His parents especially, were very. As described to me, you know, traditional Jewish, Long Island, Great Neck family.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Got it.

[Alex Braverman]

And he was a. A puzzle for them. Although they loved him and thought he was hilarious and sweet and all these things, you know, he was very puzzling.

[Tiffany Hansen]

But, I mean, to be fair, a lot of kids are puzzling to their parents.

[Alex Braverman]

Yes. You know, there's some indication that his dad could be a very stern and angry person. And. But ultimately they, you know, they clashed when he was a teen, but ultimately they came back together. And then, as you can see in some of the footage, his parents participated in some of his later bits on TV as well.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Let's talk about the title of the film, which is thank you very much, and I feel like I should say it, thank you very much.

[Alex Braverman]

Or you could say it thank you very much.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah, right. Or that. What does it tell us about. What are you. What are you trying to convey with that as the film? I mean, is it just something that people like, like me instantly? If, you know, Andy Kaufman, you know, his. The way he delivered that.

[Alex Braverman]

It's just a. A series of words that shows up in the film in many different contexts, as it does in our daily life as well. But, you know. Yeah. So.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right. Like, how you doing?

[Alex Braverman]

How you doing? Latke says, I won't do it. Thank you very much. He's got Elvis saying thank you very much. He's constantly saying it in interviews like this one, or whether he's talking to Letterman or on the Tonight Show. And it just, to me, became. Not to segue into the TM stuff, but it became a little bit of a mantra that was just popping up all over the place. And it's such a showbiz phrase that has great meaning and no meaning at all. And I just felt like it was becoming emblematic of the film itself. So.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right. I mean, that's the first thing I thought, is that, you know, it's kind of a throwaway phrase for a lot of people. And again, not like, I don't know if you can draw this parallel, but in the film there are women who talk about his emotional unavailability. And I just wonder if the lack of sincerity in something like thank you very much, you know, is sort of emblematic of his larger kind of dissociation from that kind of feeling moment that he might have with somebody.

[Alex Braverman]

I think it's both.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Both.

[Alex Braverman]

And it's both. And.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Okay.

[Alex Braverman]

There are instances in his life and in the film where he's quite aloof and distant and opaque. And then there are other moments in his life and in the film, et cetera, where I feel that he's being quite sincere. And I think you could find instances of both of those where he's saying, thank you very much, and in some cases I think he means it, and in other cases I think it is that throwaway, winking expression. And the fact that I can't answer that definitively is sort of what makes it special and work for me.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, it's sort of the way most people might feel broadly about Andy Kaufman, which is. I can't explain him. And that sort of was his intent. Right?

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah. And I think if we could, we probably wouldn't be talking about him ad nauseam for decades.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right.

[Alex Braverman]

It's what keeps it going. It's what keeps it alive.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Did he know that?

[Alex Braverman]

Did he know that?

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah. Did he think that you and I would be sitting here 40 years later going, what is it with Andy Kaufman?

[Alex Braverman]

I think that was his goal. I think it was his hope. I think, you know, his friend and girlfriend, Lynn Margulies tells us, you know, they discussed his desire to be remembered. And so I think all of his performances and material and the way that he presented himself is designed and presented in a way to be remembered and to echo out basically forever.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Going back to that thing I mentioned at the beginning there, where you have him saying, you know, and now for the climax, not a moment of silence. So a lot of what he does is make the audience feel embarrassed by what he's doing. He's not embarrassed by what he's doing, but he makes the audience feel embarrassed. I think that is probably his goal. Right.

[Alex Braverman]

It's what his. A lot of his work is about is embarrassment. Yeah.

[Tiffany Hansen]

And what is it about embarrassment? That's funny because, like, sometimes I feel like embarrassment can feel. If you're going to poke fun at it, it can feel a little mean spirited.

[Alex Braverman]

Well, I don't feel that with the work that he's doing revolving around embarrassment, specifically that he's embarrassing the audience. As. As you pointed out, it's at his expense.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right.

[Alex Braverman]

But I do think what all of his work is about, whether we're talking about embarrassment or. Or wrestling or singing anything, I do think that it's about demanding your total attention.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah.

[Alex Braverman]

And I think that embarrassment, the sensation of it, does fully, like, suck you in. You know, you're. It puts you on the edge of your seat wondering, like, what is happening to this guy who is just bombing so terribly on stage right now, like, where is this going to go? And as Bob points out in the film, he thinks of Andy first and foremost as a performance artist, but also sometimes as a magician. Like, these are illusions. They're magic tricks. And what a magician does is it kind of puts out one set of actions over here for you to look at, and then the real act is taking place on the other side. And embarrassment functions as a way to really suck you in.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Alex, we got a text in here from Emily in Park Slope. Andy was my brother's best friend in high school. I'm eight years younger. When he would ring the bell and I would answer it, it would be super awkward. They'd go down it. That's not surprising. They'd go down into the basement and play congas and talked in funny accents. That's a great memory. That's a great memory.

[Alex Braverman]

Beautiful.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah.

[Alex Braverman]

His love for congas, by the way, was very real. And I think he's an incredible drummer. And supposedly the story is that in middle school, Babatunde Olatunji, the drummer, came and visited the school and did a performance in that stuck with him for his entire life.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Before we leave embarrassment and take a quick break, I just want to follow up on one thing is that. Is that, like, some people do find it funny, you know, whereas there are. In an entire room full of people, you'll have some people who are just absolutely in hysterics when he does that, and other people just kind of like, huh, he didn't care really what your reaction was, right?

[Alex Braverman]

Not one bit. I think he cared that you reacted, but I don't think he cared what the reaction was.

[Tiffany Hansen]

There's a part in the film where he says, you know, you're laughing at the parts that aren't funny, and you're not laughing at the parts that are funny. And then everybody laughs at the person.

[Alex Braverman]

Like right now.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right? That's a. That's like major manipulator move. Right? I mean, he. He was, to your point, not really a comic. Right. There were other people in the film who were like, I went to see a comedian or I went to see a singer, and that's not what I saw.

[Alex Braverman]

Right.

[Tiffany Hansen]

But he's a performer. He's a stage performer. He's a high concept, high concept concept performer.

[Alex Braverman]

He's a performer. He's an artist. If we could put those two words together and say he was a performance artist. But, yeah, I think he was an entertainer.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right, we're talking with Alex Braverman about the new Documentary film called thank youk Very Much, which is a film about Andy Kaufman. And we'll return to the conversation in just a minute. So don't go anywhere. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. This is Alice. This is Alison Stewart. No, I'm not. That is a lie. That is a bold faced lie. Alec. Alex. Let's get all the names wrong. This is all of it. I am Tiffany Hansen, you are Alex Braverman, and we are talking together about Andy Kaufman. And we're talking about a new documentary called thank you very Much. I really have to restrain myself, Alex, from doing that in a particular voice. All right, you mentioned a couple of times about Andy Kaufman's meditation and his transcendental meditation. First of all, when in his life did that happen? Was that we, like mid-70s?

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah. He would have been a late teenager, I want to say. I think it was 1969.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Oh, okay.

[Alex Braverman]

I could be wrong, but that's what I recall from the interviews.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, this is some of the new footage that you have. Right. So I want to play a clip here for us of Andy talking about the intersection of entertainment and enlightenment with one of his gurus.

[Andy Kaufman]

What is the value of entertainment? If everybody was enlightened, would there be any need for entertainment like comedy and tragedy and literature and going to the movies and television? Will there be sad programs? Will the hero dies at the end and feel like crying?

[Alex Braverman]

Huh?

[Andy Kaufman]

Will there. I mean, I like to watch programs that make me want to cry at the end. Will there still be things like that?

[Alex Braverman]

There'll be more comedies and less tragedies.

[Andy Kaufman]

There won't be any sad programs. And what if a crazy man, a comedian who. Who specializes, let's say, in insulting people. And he's a comedian because of that. Because people laugh at his oddness, but he likes it and everything. And if we tell him that. If you meditated.

[Tiffany Hansen]

No, no. Oddness is just a means to create contrast. Big contrast on both sides and a deeper silence is experienced. There's a lot in that tape that I have questions about, but I'm going to start with the fact that people are laughing. He wasn't trying to be funny.

[Alex Braverman]

Not at all.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Were people at a certain point just sort of cued to laugh at him in inappropriate moments? Because he had trained them to do that, you know, in the way that comedians train their audiences. Right. After a certain point.

[Alex Braverman]

I mean, he's in a room in this clip that we've heard, he's in a room filled with practitioners of meditation. You know, this isn't A comedy club. And for the most part to be able to ask a question of Maharishi that involves getting in line and waiting for hours and hours and hours. And the expectation is that you're going to get up there and ask some serious and hyper specific question about meditating or enlightenment. Enlightenment. And I think that he's just so laser focused on what he's concerned with that it's a little bit shocking for those practitioners to hear him go off script, as they might think, and ask something so specific to him and what he's concerned with. And it is funny.

[Tiffany Hansen]

How do you think the comment, you know, oddness is a way to create contrast? I mean, he sort of embodies that whole thing, that whole phrase there. But how did he. How do you think we see that in him and in his work, in his playing with the comfortable and the uncomfortable, familiar and the unfamiliar? Laughter, silence.

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah. Well, that, that phrase, oddness is a way to create contrast. And this whole exchange, I feel like you could do a semester on it. But it goes back to the beginning of our conversation of, of expectation versus what, what you're expecting to happen versus what's going to happen. And I think what we see in Andy's work, and it's reflected in this conversation, which was recorded before he becomes the performer we know him to become, is basically Maharishi is saying oddness is a way of asking the audience to believe that one thing is going to happen. But in, but in contrast, what you're going to deliver is going to be a surprise, and that's going to generate laughter.

[Tiffany Hansen]

I promised we would talk about the silence that he uses. You know, a lot of comedians use silence as a tool to, you know, wait for the joke, wait for the, you know, they, they anticipate that people will know the punchline, right? They know where the joke is going. They're pre laughing at what they think the comedian is going to do about it or do at the end of the joke. How did he use that technique and kind of turn it on its head, do you think? Well, or did he? Maybe he didn't.

[Alex Braverman]

I think for him, silence, obviously there's a connection to meditation here, but when they talk about silence and meditation, it's creating room for ideas to bubble to the surface. And I think he's doing the same thing in his act when he's doing Mighty Mouse on snl and he's just standing there silently, not singing or not, you know, giving wording, mouthing the words. That's the phrase I was looking for. When he's not doing that, you know, all of your ideas are bubbling to the surface. Like, what is going on here? Like, what is he going to do? Why am I watching this? How is he burning up airtime right now? And I think he uses silence as a tool to get the audience invested and get the audience participating in their own silent way.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah, he was kind of a master at that. Right. Like, get getting. But he would try to get audience and audiences invested while at the same time pushing them away a little bit. Right. Like, I'm thinking of the Gatsby thing. Right? Like, who wants to sit here? And you know, but he, like, totally reeled you in on. And what I'm talking about is like, he's like going to just basically read the entire Great Gatsby for hours. Hours. Right. So he alienates you and also completely draws you in.

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think to a certain extent, everything is performance for him. And he's constantly pushing the boundaries of, like, what we imagine a performance space is. That's why, you know, the first thing I probably learned about Andy Coffin was that he took his Carnegie hall audience out for milk and cookies after the show. And, and what's mind blowing about that for me, learning about it is that the performance continued to take place after the show, quote, unquote, was over. And so I think he's, whether he's intending to do this or not, he's just shining a light on the fact that, like, we're all performing all the time. Doesn't matter if you bought a ticket. Like, this is a show.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Right. That was the whole thing with is, is this the real Andy Kaufman? Right. The show never ends.

[Alex Braverman]

Yeah. And after milk and cookies, he instructed everyone, you know, the show continues tomorrow afternoon at the Staten Island Ferry. See you there.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right. The documentary is called thank you very much. The director is Alex Braverman. We've been talking about the film and about Andy Kaufman. We could probably talk for another, I don't know, two hours.

[Alex Braverman]

Or we could sit in silence.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Or we could just sit in silence. Or we could start reading the Great Gatsby. Either way, you decide. There it is. All right, Alex Braverman, thanks so much.

[Alex Braverman]

Thank you.

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