Nathan Stewart Jarrett (2:33)

Hello.

Tiffany Hansen (2:35)

That scene that we just listened to, I loved that scene. I'm just gonna like Fangirl for a second, so. Okay, Sam, we'll start with you. Femme was originally a short film. It received a lot of buzz. I'm curious what you saw in the short film that you said. That is really gonna make a great feature.

Sam Freeman (2:56)

We, I mean we set out actually originally to make a feature film. Ping and I, my co director, have been friends for a long time and we've been living together and we're having this real kick of watching these kind of neo noir, kind of late night thrillers, stuff by the Safdie brothers, kind of classic Scorsese films. And we're having a conversation about how we. How we loved the genre and we loved the films, but also as. As queer artists sort of felt kind of excluded from. From the area. You know, these films are filled with a very particular kind of sort of hyper masculinity that. And queer characters sort of don't center in them. Don't, don't. And if they are, they're often to the side or they're there for comic reading.

Tiffany Hansen (3:43)

The thriller genre. Yeah.

Sam Freeman (3:44)

And it's a very certain kind of thriller. And originally the seed of the idea was that we just wanted to flip it. And so we. We wanted to make a feature film, but neither Ping nor I had ever made film before. And so a short became our way to kind of prove that we could direct. And through making this short, we kind of discovered this sort of central relationship between these two men who are both struggling, I suppose, or dealing with their relationship to their gender, their sexuality, their masculinity in different ways, and what happens when they. They sort of are headed on a kind of collision course with each other.

Tiffany Hansen (4:21)

Nathan, specifically, was it the overall story, the idea that you're gonna sort of bump up against this, intentionally bump up against this genre of thriller? Or was it your character? What was it? Was it the character? Was it all of it?

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (4:40)

It was pretty much all of it. It was really the script, I think, you know, I get a lot of scripts, I see a lot of scripts. They have a lot of meetings. And I just thought the script was so economic, so tight and classical in a sense. Characters on a trajectory of tragedy. And I just thought the character there was, you know, playing Jules is basically playing four different characters. And I just thought as an actor, it's an absolute gift of a role to be able to play someone that dynamic, that nuanced, and opposite another character who's equally as nuanced. So it really was the script. You know, you have written and you're sitting right next to me, but you've written a very tight and wonderful script with just so much depth and so much to play with. So that for me, every film, the skeleton, the genesis, the X is always the script. And it starts from there. Everything starts from there.

Tiffany Hansen (5:32)

The character, your character is complex, Preston's character, extremely complex. It makes for pretty muddy waters in terms of what each of these characters brings to the table, in terms of their Relationship. I guess it may be a question for both of you, but, Sam, how. How is it to write that? That's a. That seems like a very tall order.

Sam Freeman (6:01)

Yeah, and I think that's why we wanted to do it. You know, I think we. We were really clear at the beginning that we weren't setting out to make a kind of sort of black and white, overly moralistic movie. We wanted to put two very human characters on the screen in a really sort of murky, difficult situation and explore what happens. And I think, you know, I like to think it's a very human film. And. And I. You know, we weren't interested in sort of making things like, here's a good guy, here's a bad guy. Like, you know, there's this.

Tiffany Hansen (6:34)

But isn't that sort of the trope you get a lot of times in the, quote, unquote, revenge thriller?

Sam Freeman (6:38)

That's why it's exciting, too, I think. You know, I think the film is not interested in binaries in any sense. Binaries of kind of gender or sexuality or ideas like hero and villain. I think revenge, the revenge thriller, is a very binary genre. You're right. It is often very sort of like, the good guy comes to, gets, you know, an eye for an eye. The good guy gets. Gets their reward, and the bad guy gets their comeuppance. And I think it felt exciting to take that genre and do something, but difficult with it.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (7:09)

Yeah, I think that in a sense, you. Because you always say you kind of upended a genre, but I think within that, in terms of, like the archetype of good person, bad person, I think you kind of usurped that as well. It really kind of did something in terms of what we think of a moral. A moralistic person or something, anything like that. These real big pillars. And you actually said, well, no, how about we turn it around? I think that was the power. The power of the film, the power of the piece is that. That you do that and you pose those questions. And I've said it a few times. I think the film is amazing. But I also think it's good because it poses questions and it doesn't answer any. That's. That's what makes it really powerful, I think.

Sam Freeman (7:49)

For me. Yeah. And for me, that's really. I think all the best stories ask question. They pose questions rather than making statements of like, this is what the world is. I think they ask challenging questions, hopefully in a really, like, emotionally engaging, sometimes entertaining, sometimes, you know, difficult way, but that you come out feeling emotionally engaged and you think about it the next day and it stays with you. And so those questions stay with you.

Tiffany Hansen (8:13)

I suppose there's a way to do that though, isn't there? That doesn't leave people going, well, I don't know what that was about.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (8:21)

No.

Sam Freeman (8:21)

And I. Hopefully that's not. Hopefully that's also not what the film does. I think, you know, I think that's, you know, that's, that's good storytelling. Like, I don't think you come out of. I think the movie is very clear what it's about. I think, you know, you're following, you know who the characters are and you really, you know, the plot is. It really leads it. And that's why what's good to play with these kind of genres as well is that you can carry really tricky questions on something that is also like viscerally and emotionally engaging for an audience.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (8:50)

Yeah, I do love a degree of ambiguity. I mean, I think that the film carries that and I. And again, I think that's what's very powerful. And if you think about like films like Anatomy before, like it's ambiguous to a fault and it's. I think it's a very powerful film. So I, I like that there's a degree of. I don't know, maybe there's, you know, it's. The audience actually does some work and audiences are so, so smart. So I think kind of just feeding them things is not always a good idea. I love ambiguity.

Tiffany Hansen (9:16)

We talk about how the film is distinctly non binary, but would you. Again, probably a question for both of you. Would you describe the relationship, Nathan, between your character Jules and Preston, who is the person that your character gets involved with as a love. It's a binary love hate relationship. I mean, it's very simplistic. But I guess what I'm getting at is if something is a love hate relationship, it's feels. It does feel sort of inherently ambiguous.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (9:53)

Yes, I know what you mean. I wouldn't say that I thought it was a love hate relationship. I do think it's in a sense of some kind of twisted love story. I wouldn't. I think that Jules is compromised in his pure hatred towards Preston. And so probably yes. I think that probably my answer to your question is yes, but I wouldn't have phrased it like that. But yeah, I think definitely.

Tiffany Hansen (10:17)

You have anything to say on that?

Sam Freeman (10:18)

Yeah, I think, I mean the, the relationship goes on a real journey, doesn't it? There's a big arc there and I think, you know, what happens to Jules in the Beginning in that attack. And we talked a lot about the idea of drag when we were making the film. Obviously, Jules is a drag.

Tiffany Hansen (10:34)

Yeah, that's where I wanted to go next. So. Great.

Sam Freeman (10:37)

Okay, I can lead into it.

Tiffany Hansen (10:39)

Please do.

Sam Freeman (10:40)

But Jules is stripped of that drag by Preston at the beginning. And a lot of Jules power, personal power. L. With that drag, it's where he's found his identity, and so that his identity is kind of stripped from the beginning of the film. And actually, outside of the kind of plot mechanics and the specifics, his revenge that he wants to take on Preston is really from a desire to strip Preston's drag from him. We talked a lot about Preston being, in a way, a kind of drag king. He wears a form of kind of like sort of quite toxic hyper masculinity as a way to kind of protect himself. But the thing is, I suppose, as Jules starts to strip these layers of drag from Preston over the course of the film, it reveals something more nuanced and more human and more damaged underneath. And that then affects the way that Jules feels about Preston and also feels about the act of revenge that he is trying to.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (11:33)

In that sense, the drag is the self.

Sam Freeman (11:34)

Yeah.

Tiffany Hansen (11:37)

How does. So let's imagine a world where it's impossible. Right. Where Jules is not a drag. Drag artist. But what I'm getting at is how does that. We know how it now affects their relationship, but how does it make the story overall richer to have that character as a drag artist?

Sam Freeman (11:57)

I think it operates, I think, for us on two levels. There is, as I said, the kind of thematic idea that this is a film about identity and about gender. And drag really, at its core, is a performance of. Of identity and of gender. So the film is about how we perform ourselves and how we choose performances that give us safety, that give us power. And what happens when those performances are stripped from us? What's underneath?

Tiffany Hansen (12:23)

Because we're all.

Sam Freeman (12:24)

I think so. I think. I think that. I think I'm performing right now.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (12:27)

Yeah, very well.

Sam Freeman (12:31)

And so, of course, it kind of. It really sat at the core of the conversations when we were making the film, when we were talking with Nathan, with all of the actors. There's that RuPaul, that very famous RuPaul quote. We're all born naked and the rest is drag. Which sort of kind of, in a way, sort of sits like with this.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (12:55)

Shakespeare quote, with the world is a stage.

Sam Freeman (12:57)

Absolutely. Shakespeare and RuPaul.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (13:00)

I think that's where you were aiming.

Sam Freeman (13:01)

Actually. That's what we were aiming.

Tiffany Hansen (13:03)

I like it. I see that on the poster. Baby.

Sam Freeman (13:06)

Yeah.

Tiffany Hansen (13:07)

It's RuPaul meets Shakespeare. So, Nathan, I'm curious how Aphrodite helps Jules on the journey.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (13:19)

From my understanding, really, drag is an expression, so you can say it's an expression of someone's interior. And I think that Aphrodite is Jules at his most empowered, his most celebratory, and gives Jules license and a voice to do things and say things that Jules is unable to kind of reconcile out of drag. And I think when you are feeling your most powerful in those moments and you know it's Jules birthday, there's lots of different things. Again, it's very classical. I think you started it in a very classical way of like the height of someone's power to rip someone. To rip that from someone at that time is. Is the most painful, is the most awful thing to do.

Tiffany Hansen (14:05)

Let's hear. Oh, sorry, can I just.

Sam Freeman (14:07)

Oh yeah, no, go ahead. Just on the drag quote. I suppose the other thing. Your question. I suppose the other thing is that drag, I guess it also plays a very important plot. It's an important plot device within the film because it's also the reason why Preston doesn't recognize Jules when he meets him again.

Tiffany Hansen (14:21)

Right.

Sam Freeman (14:22)

Which is also quite Shakespearean.

Tiffany Hansen (14:24)

It is. Somebody can write their dissertation on this. Let's hear from Aphrodite. This is Jules and Preston continuing their secret affair. We find Jules in a bathtub, friends by his side, consoling him. Let's take a listen.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (14:43)

She was just so, so powerful. It's not so confusing. It was like. It was like. Like she was the real me and I was the performance after. You know, it was like I wasn't. It's like I wasn't worth that anymore. I could let down.

Tiffany Hansen (15:23)

You didn't let anyone down, babe. Nathan, talk about that crisis that's happening there. First of all, can I give you a two part question?

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (15:35)

Yeah, I'll just hope to answer.

Tiffany Hansen (15:38)

Okay. And then second part is the voice we heard there at the end is a member of Jules chosen family.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (15:45)

Yes, yes.

Tiffany Hansen (15:46)

So about. Tell us about both of those.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (15:50)

It's. It's funny because at the moment I have an issue where I can't remember the film. As an actor, I can remember George. I can remember yourself, Sam, and remember different things, but I can't remember myself performing anything. I almost remember it as if it were real. And I think that it's height performance. You can meld. You bring a lot of yourself to something and you lend a lot of yourself to something. And you also learn and you are informed by that character. I think Jules, in that instance, is saying that he feels whole as Aphrodite. He feels that if you look at Paris is Burning, a lot of kids in the ballroom were living the life that they wanted to live. They'd grown into that life. And I think he feels really whole as Aphrodite and. And hasn't honored her by not doing enough since the attack. I think it's a really common. A common thing actually, to kind of. To go somewhere else. I think it's really common. Second part. Tiffany, give me the second part again.

Tiffany Hansen (16:57)

Chosen Family.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (16:58)

Chosen Family again. I think it's very, very common. I think in queer society. Oftentimes, if you think about kids that have run away from home, have bad home lives, work lives, whatever that would be, that they choose their family out of necessity, choose who will love, who accept them, who will take care of them. And it's incredibly important, as I think it is to Jules, that we had a few scenes that I don't think actually made it into the film, unfortunately, but they're really to show how important Chosen Family is. I think we all do it in many different ways.

Tiffany Hansen (17:33)

Can you give me a quick answer for this question? Sam here? The clock is ticking. What do you hope queer audiences will take from this film?

Sam Freeman (17:42)

I hope that. I hope in a way also I hope that queer audiences feel like we are expanding kind of the canon of queer film. I've talked to a lot of people who've really felt like sort of queer thrillers have been something that we haven't seen a lot of that actually, like sort of queer film sits within a genre of its own. And sometimes we feel that we're sort of kept within a box. And I think. I think, you know, there are some films coming out at the moment that sort of stand alongside us, like Love Lies Bleeding and. And there's a really kind of. It's an exciting time to expand the kind of stories that we are allowed to tell.

Nathan Stewart Jarrett (18:23)

As in the sun as well, rotting in the sun. It's amazing.

Tiffany Hansen (18:26)

We've been talking with Sam Freeman, co director of the new film Thaum Them. See, I keep wanting to do that. Femme. Thank you. And Nathan, Stuart Jarrett, who plays Jules, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it. Coming up tomorrow on All Of It, a conversation about food. It's our food for thought. We'll talk with Anna Gass, author of a new cookbook, Italian Snacking. Snacking on all of it tomorrow. Join us for that.

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McDonald's Customer (19:41)

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Nathan Stewart Jarrett (19:42)

All right, unc.

Tiffany Hansen (19:43)

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

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I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.