Flavors And Recipes As A Gateway To The Past

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Flavors And Recipes As A Gateway To The Past"

Podcast Title: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Episode Title: Flavors And Recipes As A Gateway To The Past
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Produced by: WNYC Studios

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, hosted by Alison Stewart, the focus shifts to the intersection of food and history through the engaging platform of YouTube personality and food history enthusiast, Max Miller. Max, known for his channel Tasting History, explores how culinary practices offer a tangible connection to past cultures and societies.

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Tasting History with Max Miller

[02:22] Alison Stewart:
"So you describe this channel as being about history first, food second. Why did you first want to look at history through the lens of food?"

[02:31] Max Miller:
Max explains his lifelong passion for history, which naturally led him to cooking and baking. Inspired by segments from the early seasons of The Great British Bake Off that delved into the history behind recipes, Max created Tasting History to make historical lessons more accessible and engaging through the universal language of food.

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Choosing Historical Subjects

[03:12] Alison Stewart:
"You have different ways into the story. Sometimes it's something very specific like what they served in first class on Titanic, or perhaps it might be the oldest recipe on record. How do you go about choosing historical subjects to explore?"

[03:31] Max Miller:
Max emphasizes that his choices are story-driven. He seeks out intriguing historical narratives that can be complemented by a relevant recipe, whether the focus remains on the food itself or extends to broader historical events, such as the differing experiences of Titanic passengers during its sinking.

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Engaging with History Through the Senses

[04:19] Caller:
"History by engaging our other senses, like their sense of smell, our sense of taste."

[04:26] Max Miller:
Max highlights that experiencing historical food offers an immediate, sensory connection to the past, making history more tangible and relatable compared to abstract concepts.

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Challenges in Recreating Historical Recipes

[06:24] Alison Stewart:
"What are some of the challenges or eccentricities in recipes that make it hard for you to decipher? How am I going to do this?"

[06:24] Max Miller:
Max discusses the difficulties in sourcing extinct or unavailable ingredients, such as silphium from ancient Rome, and navigating ambiguous historical measurements. He mentions substitutes like asafetida (Hing) for silphium and the complexities of translating measurements from old cookbooks, which often lack standardization.

Notable Quote:
"Immediacy is one of the only ways that we can really connect with people from the past." — Max Miller [04:26]

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Simnel Cake and Easter Traditions

[09:29] Alison Stewart:
"Let's talk Easter. We're approaching Easter in an episode about an Easter cake which is called. How do you say it? Simnel."

[09:37] Max Miller:
Max delves into the history of simnel cake, exploring various origin stories—from its name derived from the Occitan word for flower to Victorian-era myths involving fictional baker couples. He explains its association with Easter as a celebration of the end of Lent, a period of dietary restrictions.

Notable Quote:
"If there is a wonderfully crafted origin story where there's a lot of specific information... it's probably not true because typically people did not write down when they create a dish." — Max Miller [09:56]

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Ancient Desserts: Mersu

[14:15] Caller:
"You have a dessert you called the History History's oldest dessert, Mersu. Am I pronouncing it correctly?"

[14:30] Max Miller:
Max explains that Mersu is traced back to ancient Mesopotamia, based on records from the palace of Mari. While the exact nature of Mersu remains unclear, it likely involved sweet fillings like dates and pistachios. Interestingly, modern desserts in the region bear resemblance to these ancient recipes, highlighting the longevity of certain culinary traditions.

Notable Quote:
"Nothing has changed... they had the same desires, wants, hang ups." — Max Miller [14:47]

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Converting Historical Measurements

[17:44] Alison Stewart:
"The White House cookbook with some odd measurements. I know that you have methods for converting measurements across time. What kinds of tools or references do you use to approach the conversions?"

[18:02] Max Miller:
Max discusses the complexities of converting historical measurements, noting that units like "teacups" and "wine glasses" varied significantly across regions and time periods. He utilizes historical conversion charts and resources from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, acknowledging the inconsistencies even then. This meticulous work is crucial, especially for baking, where accurate measurements are essential.

Notable Quote:
"The standardization of measurements is something we take for granted now. But it is relatively new, and it does make things difficult." — Max Miller [18:02]

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Evolution of the Girl Scout Cookie

[21:11] Caller:
"You had an episode that talked about the history of the Girl Scout cookie, and it talked about the basic sugar cookie. How is it different from what we expect from Girl Scout cookies today?"

[21:23] Max Miller:
Max explains that the original Girl Scout cookies were simple sugar cookies baked by Scouts at home or rented kitchens, differing from today's commercially produced varieties like Samoas and Thin Mints. While the fundamental recipes remain similar, the shift to professional kitchens changed the production dynamics.

Notable Quote:
"The main difference was who was making the cookie and the cost." — Max Miller [21:23]

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Experiencing Historical Recipes: Successes and Surprises

[22:33] Caller:
"Do you ever get any surprises? Perhaps you don't like it that much?"

[22:45] Max Miller:
Max candidly shares that not all historical recipes turn out delicious. His primary goal is authenticity and historical accuracy, not necessarily taste. Examples include an ancient Roman jellyfish dish called patina and boiled leather used for survival, both of which he personally found unappetizing.

Notable Quote:
"If it's delicious, great. If it's not, it's not my recipe. I don't care." — Max Miller [22:45]

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Conclusion

Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by appreciating Max Miller's dedication to making history accessible and engaging through food. Max's work on Tasting History not only brings ancient recipes to modern kitchens but also illuminates the cultural and societal contexts in which these dishes were created.

[24:21] Caller:
"We've been talking with Max Miller. Max, thanks for making the time today."

[24:33] Max Miller:
"It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me."

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Key Takeaways

• Max Miller's Approach: Combines a passion for history with culinary exploration to create engaging content that connects modern audiences with the past.
• Historical Recipes: Recreating ancient dishes offers sensory connections to history but comes with challenges like sourcing extinct ingredients and interpreting old measurements.
• Cultural Insights: Food serves as a lens to understand broader historical narratives, societal norms, and cultural practices.
• Authenticity vs. Taste: The primary focus is on historical accuracy, even if the resulting dish isn't always palatable.

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This episode of All Of It provides a rich exploration of how food can serve as a gateway to understanding history, emphasizing the importance of sensory experiences in connecting with the past. Max Miller's insights offer both educational value and culinary inspiration for history enthusiasts and food lovers alike.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Coming up on tomorrow's show, we are going to talk about one of our favorite things around here, Broadway. The latest issue of New York magazine is an homage to the theater legends and its history. We'll be joined by David Haskell, who edited the issue, and Mark Seliger, who took the beautif of some of Broadway's most recognizable legends. Barbra Streisand, Mandy Patinkin, Audra McDonald, Andre De Shields. And we want you to call in and share your favorite Broadway legends or moments. That's happening tomorrow at noon and on Sunday at 8pm WNYC is rebroadcasting our listening party live with the cast and creative team behind the musical Hell's Kitchen. It's Broadway on the radio coming up tomorrow and this weekend. Now let's get this hour started with Tasting History. We love history on all of it. We encourage you to read books about it. We tell you about visiting a museum or watching a documentary. Now, a YouTube channel brings history to you and your stomach. It's called Tasting History with Max Miller, who looks for recipes and other primary resources related to food cultures, from an ancient Rome recipe for stuffed flamingo to the origins of the scout cookies and everything in between. It aims to get folks to understand a small piece of what it was like to live in the past using the universal language of food. Humans haven't always had grocery stores, refrigerators, or food processors, but we've always had to eat. So to join us now about Tasting History with Max Miller is Max Miller. Hi, Max.

[Max Miller]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

So you describe this channel as being about history first, food second. Why did you first want to look at history through the lens of food?

[Max Miller]

So I've always been obsessed with history since I was a little kid. And it was actually history that got me into cooking and to baking, specifically the Great British Bake Off. When I first started watching that in the early seasons, they would often talk about the history of what they were baking. Unfortunately, they've gotten rid of those segments, but that's what got me interested. That was the hook for me. And I have kind of turned it around and found that to get people into history, food is a good hook because everyone likes food. And so, but I like teaching history, so this is, this is my sneaky way of teaching people lessons.

[Alison Stewart]

You have different ways into the story. Sometimes it's something very specific like what they served in first class on Titanic, or perhaps it might be the oldest recipe on record. How do you go about choosing historical subjects to explore?

[Max Miller]

It is, it's hard. It's. It almost always comes with the story first. Like I said, the history is what got me. And so I like to find an interesting story and if it has anything at all to do with food, I can find a recipe to go along with it. And sometimes it's, it's very clear and, you know, I end up really just talking about the history of the food itself. And then sometimes it's very tangential and it's like, yes, they serve this on the Titanic. But really what I'm going to talk about is the sinking that night and how first or third class passengers experience that night differently.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think we get about.

[Caller]

History by engaging our other senses, like their sense of smell, our sense of taste.

[Max Miller]

Immediacy is one of the only ways that we can really connect with people from the past. You know, we can use our imaginations, of course, and imagine what it was like to be a soldier at the battle of Waterloo, but it's really just going to stay in your imagination and you don't know if you're right or wrong or anything. But if you taste something using a recipe that they used back, even though our ingredients have changed and everything, at least you can get this immediate connection with someone who lived hundreds of years ago in many cases. And, and it makes people more interested in it. And so by the time I get to the history section of a video, I think people are more willing to, to listen to me babble on for 10 minutes about whatever topic I've decided to talk about that day.

[Caller]

We're talking with YouTuber and Food History enthusiast Max Miller. His channel is called Tasting History. He's got a cookbook out of the same name. Let's get you in on this conversation. Maybe you have a question for Max Miller. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Maybe you have an old family recipe that he can add some historical context to, or maybe you have a question about a particular ingredient or a time period, like why'd the potato get so popular? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on social media of it. Wnyc. Use primary resources in all of your research. But sometimes a recipe will have something that like, doesn't exist. The ingredient no longer exists. What are some of the challenges or of these esang eccentricities and recipes that make it hard for you to decipher? How am I going to do this?

[Max Miller]

Yeah, so usually, I mean, my number one kind of mantra to myself so I don't go crazy is it's just, it's just food. It's not. I'm not, I'm not, you know, this is not surgery or anything. So I just need to get as close as I can without, you know, often breaking the law. Like, there is a dish for a bear stew that I want to make. It's a Mongolian bear stew. Well, you can't get bear meat legally here in the US at least not commercially. So I'm going to have to use something else. But I still want to tell this story of Kubla Khan eating in, you know, in his palace after they had taken China. And then sometimes it's not that I can't get a hold of ingredient because it's, you know, not available, but because it literally does not exist anymore. Most famous is silphium, which was one of the most popular ingredients, at least among the wealthy in ancient Rome. It was so popular that they ate it into extinction rather early on. It was during the reign of Nero. So for the majority of the Roman Empire, this ingredient didn't exist. What's nice is that because they loved it so much, they went and found a substitute. It was a poor substitute, but it was a substitute. And that's called asafetida and that is still available today sometimes under the name Hing. You can get it in Indian grocery stores. They use it a lot in their cooking. And then there is those times where we simply don't know what the ingredient was. And this often has to do with language barriers. If you go back to Babylonian cooking, we have the Yale Babylonian tablets and it's all cuneiform. They are the oldest written recipes, but there are a lot of words that have no translation. And some have, have theories of the translations, but even scholars can't quite agree. So it's, you know, it's just unclear. And even when you come much later in history, words that we use now to refer to foods have just changed. And so, like what, you know, if, if you were going to cook something with Pickled mango. Today, you would assume that it is mango that has been pickled. But if you were in England in the 1860s, that could be a peach or an apple or plum or a whole host of other things. And it was simply because they were trying to emulate what they were getting from India, but they didn't grow mangoes in England, so they had to just use other things.

[Caller]

This is a great text for you. My family discovered Max on YouTube during COVID and he provided us with many hours of entertainment and education during a bleak time. Many thanks to him. Wanted to pass that along.

[Max Miller]

That's so nice. Let's talk about it was definitely a wonderful way for me to get through it as well.

[Alison Stewart]

No doubt. Let's talk Easter. We're approaching Easter in an episode about an Easter cake which is called. How do you say it? Simnel.

[Max Miller]

Simnel cake.

[Alison Stewart]

A simnel cake. You say that most of what people think they know about this cake comes from folklore, but because, in your words, the Victorians just loved making things up, so they did. What kind of skepticism do you have to have when you are going through a recipe?

[Max Miller]

Typically, if the. And it's usually not the recipe itself, it's the history behind it. If. If there is a wonderfully crafted origin story where there's a lot of specific information about people's names and dates and it's just tied up with a bow, it's probably not true because typically people did not write down when they create a dish, they don't write down. Today I created this first cake that now I am going to call Simnel cake today. We do do that here in the last hundred years. We know Peach Melba was created and named after Nellie Melba, the opera singer, but historically, that's not how food happened. And so sometimes the stories are pieced together, and then sometimes, especially with the Victorians, the stories are just made up. And they loved giving origin stories for things. And, you know, I don't know exactly why that was, but it was popular. And so it's now it's kind of sorting through the fact and fiction and finding. Are there even older records that corroborate this story, or do we think it's totally made up? But again, it's always like, this is just food history, so it's not super, super important. But I do like to get to the bot things as much as I possibly can.

[Alison Stewart]

Okay, to the best of your knowledge, what are the origin stories behind this simnel cake and what made it a good centerpiece for Easter celebrations?

[Max Miller]

So There are a few. There's the boring one, of course, that's probably true. That just has it coming from an older word for flower. And they would make these little cakes, but they were just bread and they were called simnels or simna. Later on, there is a. An English king who. His power was. There was a young boy named Simnel who had claimed to be the descendant and the rightful heir to the throne of England. And this does have some basis in truth that this actually happened, but the fact that he worked in a kitchen and there made the first simnel cake and so it's named after him doesn't really have any basis in truth. So it's kind of. Again, that's like, let's take some truth, let's take some fiction, and we'll make a fun story. Again. That's something that came up in the Victorian age. Another, even less true story is about a husband and wife team that were bakers. One was named Simon, who they called Sim, and another Nelly, who they called Nell. And one day they had a disagreement over making a cake during the last days of Lent, just before Easter. And one wanted to boil it, one wanted to bake it. They decided to do both, and so they put their name on it, and that became simnel. That's a type of simnel that is. Is not what I've made, but that is a type of simnel that's out there, boiled and baked. The reason that it ended up becoming associated with Easter is a little murky. Exactly why this time of year, it's not that there are ingredients involved that are only available now or anything like that, but typically Easter is a time historically where sweets are re added to our diet because during the month, the weeks of Lent, you couldn't eat so many of the things that you really wanted to eat. There was no butter, there was. There was no milk. You couldn't have anything that came from an animal unless it was seafood for. For the longest time. So you see a lot of cakes being made at this time of year. So it was always traditional to have it be made on Mothering Sunday, which is the fourth Sunday of Lent, and then it would be served a week later on Easter. I don't know why they ate it a week later, but it does kind of let the flavors inside, I guess, kind of marinate a little bit.

[Caller]

We're talking to YouTuber and Food History enthusiast Max Miller about his channel called Tasting History. There's a cookbook out of the same. You have a dessert you called the History History's oldest dessert, Mersu. Am I pronouncing it correctly?

[Max Miller]

Mersu, yes, we think, we think that's how it should be pronounced.

[Caller]

So what is this recipe for Mersu, perhaps the oldest dessert? What does it tell us about food culture in this extremely early civilization?

[Max Miller]

So it isn't even really a recipe. It's. It's more of a list of ingredients. The ancient Mesopotamians kept very good records in, in, especially in the palaces and in the palace of Mari M A R I, which is a ways north of, of Babylon, they found a receipt detailing some of the ingredients to make Mersu for the king. Exactly what Mersu is, it does not explain. Other sources give context. So it was probably some sort of baked good that had fillings, sweet fillings. This one is with dates and pistachios, but there were many others. They also had savory fillings, but we really don't know what it was. So any, any recipe, modern recipe for it is really just a guess and it's an approximation, but we can at least get an idea. What's interesting is that to this day there are desserts in that region that are very similar, at least in the ingredients. So we can kind of, we can wonder maybe this hasn't changed all that much over the centuries. There are other dishes from that time that have remained almost static to this day, which is really, really neat. But it just show how varied food was at that time, even that far back. Because we have records of numerous people making this Mersu in the city of Mari and that's the only thing that they made. So it was like pastry chefs who specialized in just making these fill in the blank cakes, breads, pastry, we don't really know, but, but it's food was obviously very, very important just as much to them as it is to us. And so again, it gives us that immediacy that even though they were living nearly 4,000 years ago, they had the same desires, wants, hang ups. Nothing has changed.

[Caller]

You're listening to Max Miller, YouTuber and amateur food historian. The name of his channel is Tasting History. We'll have more with Max, including the history of the first girl Scout cookie after the break.

[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We're talking with YouTuber and food enthusiast Max Miller. His channel is called Tasting History.

[Caller]

He's got a cookbook of the same name.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about history through food. Here's a question for you. This says, we love Max Miller in our household.

[Caller]

We have a Tattered family copy of.

[Alison Stewart]

The White House cookbook with some odd measurements. I know that you have methods for converting measurements across time. What kinds of tools or references do you use to approach the conversions?

[Caller]

I think it would be so lovely to connect with family history through previous generations. Cookbooks. How do you make the conversions?

[Max Miller]

Yeah, so the White House Cookbook is really interesting because it was. It was huge. It was so popular. Everyone in this country had a copy of the White House cookbook in their kitchens for decades. And it is written in a late 19th century style. That's when it was first. First produced. And so you do have ingredient measurements that are like two teacups of flour. Well, how much is a teacup? And a lot of things like that. Often wine glasses. Well, wine glasses were vastly different than we have today. So a wine glass is really just. Just about an ounce, whereas today a wine glass would be, you know, I don't know, 12, 16, 18 ounces more. So making those conversions takes. It's. It does take a lot of work. Late 19th century conversions are easier because we do have. That was the time when things started to be standardized. And so we do have books from that period and from the early 20th century saying, okay, two wine glasses equals this many ounces or milliliters. This many teacups is this many tablespoons. And a lot of old cookbooks from this period actually have those charts. And you can find them online either in cookbooks or sometimes if you just look up, like 19th century measurement conversions, there will be websites that lay these out. The thing is, they're still not consistent because everyone was deciding different things. What makes it even harder is that even today, it's different. National weights and measurements are not the same across the world. And so a cup of something or a pound of something in 18th century Russia is different than a pound of something in 18th century England is different than in France. In France, if you go back to the 17th and 18th century, measurements will be different city to city. And so you have to find out, was this written in Paris or was this from Rouen? Because they're going to be different, slightly different amounts. That the standardization of measurements is something we take for granted now. But it is relatively new, and it does make things difficult. For a lot of cooking, it doesn't really matter too much. You can approximate it. When it comes to baking, it's a.

[Caller]

Little bit more difficult because chemistry, baking is partially chemistry.

[Max Miller]

And, you know, the differences can be substantial. It can be 10, 20, 30% different. And if you use 30% more baking powder. That cake ain't going to taste good.

[Caller]

You had an episode that talked about the history of the Girl Scout cookie, and it talked about the basic sugar cookie. How is it different from what we expect from Girl Scout cookies today?

[Max Miller]

I think the main difference was not the cookie. It was who was making the cookie. It was the Girl Scouts. They had to bake the cookies at home. And then. Or actually it was more often they would kind of rent the space of a store that sold ovens, and then they would use those ovens to bake the cookies and then sell the cookies after that. There are no Girl Scouts today, I don't think that are actually baking any of the Samoas and Thin Mints out there now. It's all commercial kitchens. It's only a couple, actually, in the country that do it all. But that's the main difference because the cookie itself is essentially just a delicious sugar cookie. The recipe is from 1922. That was the first year that it came out. And it really, you know, it. The cookie tastes the same as it would today. Any sugar cookie, they don't make those anymore. Now, they ended up. That ended up becoming the trefoil, which is a shortbread, which is quite different. But that's. That's the biggest difference was who was making the cookie and the cost.

[Caller]

Of course, at the end of your series, you always. You eat what you've made. Do you ever get any surprises? Perhaps you don't like it that much?

[Max Miller]

Yeah, all the time. And that is because I never go into an episode trying to make something delicious. If it is, that's great. But my goal is to make something as close as I can to the way that it was made and. And hopefully have an interesting story behind it. If it's delicious, great. If it's not, it's not my recipe. I don't care. So there are dishes from history that just don't sit well with me. There is a jellyfish. It's called a patina, which is basically a frittata from ancient Rome. Turns out I'm not a huge jellyfish fan. The texture is not great. I also really don't like frittatas all that much, it turns out, so. So that was rough. I once did an episode on the history of eating leather. There are times in the past where people had to eat leather to survive because it was literally the only thing that they had. They had their leather bootstraps or whatever, and they were starving, and so they would boil the leather until it became edible. There isn't a lot of nutrient left but it was something to fill their stomach that wouldn't poison them. And so I found some raw leather which was not easy to find and actually boiled it and tried it for myself and that was a little rough because it's leather so it just, it wasn't great. But again the story was fascinating around.

[Caller]

It did it for the took one for the team. We appreciate that the name of the channel is Tasting History. We've been talking with Max Miller. Max, thanks for making the time today.

[Max Miller]

It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

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