A (3:09)

Mara Rock Akil. Let's listen. It's so interesting thinking about your shows being mostly about adults, but this is really about teenagers and teenagers lives. What aspects of teenagers lives and of Rome romance did you think would be interesting to explore on screen?

C (3:36)

They're full humanity. I think a lot of times when you say ya, I think it connotates this idea that that's for them, this is not for us. If you're older than a certain age, and I think when you accept that they have a full. They have a full humanity and you explore the full breadth of it, then you realize, oh, it's another universal story about love. It's another universal story about people. And I can engage and enter into the story that way. Judy Blume did that for me.

A (4:10)

When did you first read it?

C (4:11)

I read Forever in middle school. Now. I knew at the time I didn't even have a boyfriend. I couldn't have a boyfriend at that age. But I knew it was my near future. And what I appreciated about Judy Blume's books was that she met us at that truth, she met us at that, at our real questions, at our real curiosity, at our real trying to understand ourselves. And so she didn't talk down. She got. She. She writes characters, I could say on their spine, they swivel on their own spine. There's no one looking down at them, examining them. And so my number one, I often say too that I think as a writer, you first become a writer as a reader. And I like to believe that some of Judy Blume's pen is in the recipe of me. And so in adapting anything or writing anything in my course of my career, I always like to set the character on their own spine, their own ideas of self, how they got there and move from there. And forever was no different. Though I've written a lot about adults, I wrote these young people, children, young people believing them, believing their heart's desires, believing their curiosities, believing their questions. And I sort of anchor myself in them to help craft them.

A (5:43)

This book is about your first experience with sex. You know, that's one of the big challenges of the book. It's one of the reasons it gets Challenged now. How are you able to look at sex differently with today's teenagers? Because it is very different than it was 50 years ago.

C (5:59)

Yeah. In fact, Judy and I talked about that, that she didn't know if the book was gonna be relevant today because of the nature and the progression of sex and it's. And kids access to it in terms of not just. But just the picture, like people talking about it. I mean there's social media, there's anything you wanna know about sex is out there and parents can't really stop that. So we wondered, well, what's the importance of it now? And I said, okay, let's meet the characters there. You're right. This generation in a lot of ways in some cases are sex positive. So sex is not their question. But intimacy is not there. As much as we have technology to connect us, we're very disconnected. We're in the era of loneliness. Why is that? And our children are rooted and centered in that. Also, the book is not just about sex. The book is about emotional self. And it's also about how do we explore these things, our emotional self, our physical self, and protect a future. So kids today, what is it like being a kid today, a young person today, and even thinking about a future? Those are a lot of things to talk about. The pathway to success which is examined in the show, is it always one way? Is that the only best way? What the parents are the pressures on these kids by having to attend high achieving academic environments. And what is that? What are the consequences to that? What are the challenges to that? And is that the right path? So all of that was in the book too.

A (7:40)

Who was your sounding board? Who is your teen sounding voice?

C (7:43)

You know, my muse is my. I have two boys. I have one, yes. My eldest is. I've never been. I've been a mom before except my first. So my first son is my biggest muse on this project. He's also a collaborator. I want to shout out to him on that. He is the. As Justin discovers his voice musically. He is the musical voice of Justin and he also. He and his group until Tomorrow, they have a song in episode four. But he also helped me shape the environment by just being himself, by me caring about him so much, wanting to get it right as a parent, wanting to help guide him through his rite of passages. He's my muse, but then close to him are his friends. And then outside that, his school community, his life community. And then the journalist in me. I tend to approach my work, the truth through fiction. And the journalist in Me just started paying attention to the generation at large. But he was how I entered into the world through my heart space. So that, you know, I think the best. The best screenwriting or this in this medium is to make people feel. And I have all the feels for my sons.

A (9:04)

My guest is showrunner Mara Bracha Kiel. She's joining us to discuss Forever, It's a new romantic drama series about two teens in la. It's streaming now on Netflix. It's in la, not in Jersey. Like in the book, the cast is predominantly black. What were your main factors in your decision to. You really reimagine the story? It's the heart of the story, but it is reimagined.

C (9:28)

Yes. I really held onto the essence of the book, but a lot changed because making three big decisions. One is deciding that Katherine would be Justin, That Katherine, back in 1975, was considered the most vulnerable. Also, if you think about her in society with the birth control pill just coming out, that she can actually now explore herself safely and hold onto her future. I posit in 2017, 2018, who is the most vulnerable then? And I posit it's the black boy. That the conversations that black families have to have one, can my son be alive? Let's just start there. Those were very real concerns. They still remain those concerns. But especially during that time between Trayvon Martin's murder and George Floyd's murder, black families were screaming into a vacuum about what was happening to our children. And no great zip code and no great school was necessarily gonna protect them, especially when the fashion item of the century is a hoodie. So you're just. You're just, as dawn would say, catastrophic parenting. And so in that space, part of what you're trying to protect is not just their body, but then now intersects into the conversation on a black male body that is in our country's history, full of strife, full of pain, full of death. And so you got to talk about that before he. Before our black boys can consider their own feelings about love, about desire, they're considered enemy number one just by their physical presence. That's very harrowing. Can I just consider these very natural rites of passage and not be considered harm, a violent person? And that. That. And you don't think about that when you start having babies and they're toddlers in their cute little elementary school, middle school, and you're like, oh, shoot, oh, shoot, we gotta have these hard conversations. So Judy and I leaned it. She leaned into that and understood that. And she's like, wow. Just by changing that it also allowed for, like the book, the emotional, the interiority of a character that we don't see on screen. Justin is. He's not often on screen and certainly not the main character. And so it was really lovely to explore male vulnerability and then more specific black male vulnerability. When I think often there's images bestowed upon them to be of a certain way in order to be considered masculine and strong and all that. That was the first choice. Keisha is Michael. In the book. Michael was less. He was drawn in, but only through, excuse me, Katherine's perspective. By pulling her in 50 50, it allowed me also to examine two types of black families. The sort of the traditional nuclear family, two parent led families, and then the single mother that is surrounded by the village. So it allowed me to show both families who have the same goal, love fiercely, both of their children. But having to approach it differently. In the book, some of the ills of the society of that time were in the supporting characters, the tough stuff that teenagers were swimming through. I decided to put the toughest thing that I think this generation is dealing with the phone in the middle of this relationship and how it connects and completely disconnects and harms and all the things that it can do when misused and. Or especially the blocking, which was so hilarious. To really examine how well it helps tell plot and story around a love story about miscommunication. Adding that to their generation and reflected it back to them was really fun. And also just from a storyteller perspective, I was like, oh my God, this is just rich.

A (13:47)

The group text.

C (13:48)

The group.

A (13:49)

The group text can explain a lot.

C (13:51)

Yeah, it can explain a lot. And the third element, like I said, changing it and then changing the black family in the book, Catherine's parents were very. Allowed her a lot of independence and freedom. 1 With the onset of the birth control pill, it was a freeing idea for young women back 50 years ago that, oh, there's a way to protect their future and differently black families, especially during this time period where I realized we were sort of narrowing their opportunity to have a rite of passage because of the way we parented. We were so afraid all the time. We kind of kept them in the house a little too much. Not a lot of independence. So thank God that Justin found Keisha and Keisha found Justin because even the fact that they chose a black girlfriend or a black boyfriend, it gave them some space to get to know each other and really get to know themselves.

A (14:51)

Your two leads, Lovey Simone. Is that her last name?

C (14:55)

Yeah, Lovey Simone and Michael. Beautiful, talented actress.

A (14:58)

She's so great. She was so great in Greenlift.

C (15:00)

Yeah, she was so great in Greenlift.

A (15:01)

And Michael Cooper Jr. He plays Justin. He said a really interesting thing about you to the Hollywood Reporter. He said, she, Mara, she cares so much about her craft and about her story that it's palpable on set. It's this binding thing of passion and love for the story. The reason why I got into acting was of service. I think Mara understands that as an artist, it's not about you. It's not about self. It's how we can serve each other and how we can connect to them.

C (15:32)

Mm.

A (15:33)

How do you.

C (15:34)

Wow. Michael, thank you.

A (15:35)

It's beautiful, right? It made me wonder, how do you let young actors find their voice, but you control the set?

C (15:45)

I want to give a shout out to writing. I really enjoy crafting and I really. It's on the page. I think when a well crafted script, especially in the collaborative art form, it is, you know, I've heard it been called a blueprint, and I understand it because it changes as you add elements. But the script is the foundation to the house. Or when you see these tall buildings here in the city, they gotta go deep in the ground so that building can stand strong. And that's how I see my work. I go deep in the ground so that those actors, those directors, those production designers, cinematographers, all of these storytellers, wardrobe, costume, the composer, everybody gets to. To stand on top of that foundation and build that beautiful structure. And it's the script, and it starts there. My love is poured into it so that people have a vessel to pour their love and talent into it. And I think that's how we got there.

A (16:57)

We're talking about Forever, which you can see now on Netflix. My guest is showrunner Mara Brock. Akilah. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We're back with my conversation with Mara Brach Akil about the show Forever, which is now streaming on Netflix. Let's talk about your characters, Justin and Keisha. What's going on in their lives when we meet them?

C (17:37)

Oh, my goodness. You know, it's that junior year right before it all hits the fan, where your future's around the corner calling you and college applications. Kysha knows from the jump she's been working very. She's very clear. She knows where she's going. She wants to go to Howard, but she's hiding a bit. At the start of our show and because she's hiding a big secret, a big mistake she made. And instead of leaning in on and telling her family because she just cannot face the shame and she sees how hard her mother is working and for her to make such a mistake, she just cannot face it. She allows her mother to believe that the microaggressions that are happening at school are just too much. And always having been the only black girl or the few black girls in these institutions. And she allows her to stay below the 10 because that's a big, that's a big challenge in LA when you're a kid and you don't have a car and you want to see each other, but she'll stay below the 10 and at a Catholic girls school that more black and brown girls are there. Justin is still in his trajectory of, you know, going to the most elite schools at a very high price. And he's going into his junior year believing that he's a little bit way behind getting recruited in his first dream, which is D1 basketball. Because who doesn't, who doesn't. I mean the NBA, who doesn't want that career, you know. And he comes from a family and it's interesting that the family just believes our. Believe in your children's dreams and support them to the fullest. And believe in them, believe in them. I think we tune in very quickly that you realize maybe the parents are allowing that carrot just so that he'll just get to college, but allowing him to be a little bit naive in that pursuit. We also meeting. It's very important we're meeting. We call it neurodivergent today. But at that time he represents a lot of young people, a lot of people, because I think I'm undiagnosed ADHD and how challenging school is in general. Just his learning style is not the most populous. So it's gonna be challenging to learn in those traditional environments and fast paced environments. So we're meeting him just a bit insecure about himself and his life a bit. He's in a padded prison, meaning his parents. I mean the beautiful home, beautiful life. Who doesn't wanna live. They gotta golden handcu. Golden handcuffs. And I think that's how her. That's how they can keep him safest subconscious. I don't think they consciously want to do it, but subconsciously you're like, well what's stay here. Have all your friends here live that, you know, stay safe, stay alive. This is what is underneath this beautiful life that they're living. And he's just. You meet him at a time when it's very difficult to just even say what he wants. And meeting Keisha is the first thing he realizes he wants. He understands desire. He understands love immediately. And so through love, he gets to discover more of who he is, which progresses away from this fake identity of I'm gonna be a D1 athlete. And he finds out really who he is, and he connects to himself musically. But he's also feeling a little late because we do span it over junior year and senior year. So they're half of junior year, and then we span it through the. The course of senior year. We have the summer. I got to direct the episode five, which bridges their junior and senior year and the summer of.

A (21:29)

And it's such an extraordinary episode. I told you before you restarted that it's called the Vineyard.

C (21:35)

Yes. Yes.

A (21:35)

And it's one of the best representations I've seen of black Martha's Vineyard in.

C (21:40)

Our really long time. I wanted to get it right, Alison. Being one who has been summering there for 15 years now, I just felt like it was my duty to get it right. I couldn't mess it up. I was very nervous to mess up.

A (21:53)

What did getting it right mean?

C (21:56)

Our love. The. The amount of time, expense just thinking about the Vineyard holds us through the tough parts of the year just to drink up freedom, liberation, joy, rest, safety collectively. And it's not just for my family or your family. It's a bunch of black families that migrate there every year for that joy. And I couldn't think of a better place to set this love story and anchor it in the magic of it. The, you know, love should have all those little fireflies and, you know, summer magic in it. And I wanted to anchor in the young people's love story in the best representation or not representation. The best experience I have had as a human being of black Joy has been for me and my family on the Vineyard.

A (23:01)

I would say your son goes out, but, you know, he's gonna come home.

C (23:05)

They. You know, they are coming home. They're gonna come home, and even if they get in trouble, they're gonna get dropped off, probably by the friendly cops, which. Yeah. And it's gonna be okay. Yeah, it's gonna be okay. Or they're gonna call you. They probably want to drop them off. They're just like, come get them, you know?

A (23:22)

But that's what I tell people. You send out a black sun, and he comes home.

C (23:26)

Ooh, gosh. So you're gonna get me tearing up you know, intrinsically, you send them out, they're gonna come home. And the worst thing you have to worry about is, say, the biking. But there's bike paths even just like, oh, God, just stay on the bike path, please. You know, there's the safety of that island. Lets you breathe a little bit.

A (23:45)

What was a tough decision you had to make in the showrunning of this show forever that you were worried about? It was a tough decision, but you're glad you made it.

C (23:57)

I think just depicting the sex tape of it all, too, you know, just getting into the weeds. Yeah, just getting into the weeds of that. I did not. You know, I know the legacy and the history of the demeaning images that black women have had to shake off their entire existence in this country. I didn't want to attack another black woman in that sort of way. I didn't want it to feel that way. But being honest, a young black girl who probably has never been seen, never felt she was invisible most of her life coming into her beauty. In the time where young girls are leading the conversation around what happens at the party and maybe, oh, wow, the first time you get a boyfriend, it's the. You know, it's the star basket. Like the star, the one who's actually going to the NBA. There can be a lot of confusion in your decisions and your choices. And I thought I could best maybe serve young women by allowing Keisha to be so brave and take on a subject that has been challenging to this generation. And not just young people. I mean, that's grown people, too, but they entered into life with the inability to mess up, that there would be a public record that would last forever for the choices that they would make with this technology. I thought she would be brave to do that. And in doing that, though she deserved a beautiful love, she deserved a Justin that we all deserve. Someone who can love us and look past our mistakes and see who we really are and see our beauty, whether it was a sex tape or not, just a general sense of black women deserve that kind of love.

A (26:00)

My guest is showrunner Mara Bracha Kiel. We're talking about Forever, which is on Netflix. Before you go, I have to ask you what was a piece of advice that you got that you come back to regularly in your life, in your career?

C (26:17)

It's funny. I put it in the show in the last episode, and Keisha's upset, and now she's bonded with. You know, she's back in communication with her mother, and her mother gives her the advice. My mother gave me and that if God, if you think this hurts, sweetheart, I promise you that God will give you the equivalent or better. And what that really means is that we either need to repeat the lesson because we need to learn the lesson and we'll attract that back into our lives. But if you thought it was great, you're getting something great again, or you get better because you learn the lesson and it's time to ascend and progress and get the reward of your intentionality around growing. And that has helped me in relationship, that's helped me in my career, that helps me in my mothering. You know, I know I'm gonna get the same kids back. But my point being that if I keep meeting that problem, you know, or in relationship to my kids, you know, just to connect with them over and over again, there's nothing I ascend every time.

A (27:36)

Mara Brock Akil is the creator, executive producer and showrunner of Forever. Season one is streaming now on Netflix. The show has already been renewed for season two. Coming up, New York Times bestselling author Victoria Christopher Murray talks about a historical novel about the woman who nurtured the literary Harlem Renaissance. It's titled Harlem Rhapsody. That's next.

D (28:10)

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C (28:27)

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C (28:31)

Wait. Let's negotiate. How's about you throw in hash browns for a dollar?

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C (28:38)

Take it or leave it. Take it, I guess.

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C (28:55)

Ba da ba ba ba.