Podcast Summary

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Episode: Gentrification and the American Dream in ‘Good Bones’ at The Public
Date: September 30, 2024
Guests:

• Susan Kelechi Watson (Lead Actor, plays Aisha)
• James Iams (Playwright)
• Saheem Ali (Director, Associate Artistic Director – The Public Theater)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on “Good Bones,” a new play at The Public Theater, exploring gentrification and the American Dream—not as a black-and-white issue, but from within the Black community. The discussion dives into the play’s themes, production choices, and the nuanced perspectives it brings to conversations about class, legacy, and the complexities of revitalizing neighborhoods. The guests reflect on their creative process and aspirations for audiences, moving beyond surface political debates to ask: What does it mean to belong, to come home, and to build community?

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reframing Gentrification: An Intra-Community Conversation

• James Iams’ Vision:
  • The play approaches gentrification through the lens of a Black couple returning to a changing neighborhood.
  • Iams wanted to “write a play about gentrification but not about white folks,” focusing on intra-community dialogue and shared history.

    “Black people talk about questions of class and space and place a little bit differently. … It adds so much complexity to the conversations around class and gentrification when it’s just us talking about it.” (James Iams, 02:35)

• Complexity and ‘Gnarliness’:
  • Removing outsiders from the core conflict creates a more tangled, honest confrontation around legacy, aspiration, and community trauma.

2. Artistic and Production Choices

• Director’s Approach (Saheem Ali):
  • Brought James Iams’ evocative script to life by blending the supernatural (ghosts as metaphor) with the tangible pressures of capitalism and revitalization.

    “We had this family and we had this ghost, and we had to figure out how to tell the story that was about gentrification, but about history and legacy … in ways that were supernatural and intangible alongside the very real notions of capitalism and commerce and upward mobility that the play has.” (Saheem Ali, 03:18)

  • Leaned into the “gnarliness” to confront uncomfortable truths through complicated storytelling.
• Staging and Set (The Plastic Fourth Wall):
  • The set mimics a construction site with hanging plastic, both practical (as a renovation dust barrier) and symbolic (obscuring and revealing, doubling as a “fourth wall”).

    “It became this canvas through which we could both obscure but reveal things … give you that sense of the intangible.” (Saheem Ali, 10:38)

  • The kitchen, central to the set, becomes a stand-in for “all kitchens”—an archetype of home, memory, and gathering.

    “It has these layers of history because of Earl’s relationship to the space when he was a kid. … It’s also a place where people gather. … The kitchen is like the best room for that.” (James Iams, 14:08)

3. Perspectives and Emotional Depth in Storytelling

• Actor’s Challenge (Susan Kelechi Watson):
  • Watson had to engage with a character’s perspective (Aisha) different from her personal views on gentrification.

    “The biggest challenge … was seeing it from Aisha’s point of view, because I definitely have very strong opinions about gentrification. … I had to remind myself of people I’ve had conversations with within the community who saw it Aisha’s way as well.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 04:02)

  • The play explores the protagonist’s internal struggles—balancing personal growth, familial responsibility, and the pressure to transform a community.

    “She’s at a really tense moment in her life … Everything is like, you know, you should look at it and say, oh, this is all great. And yet this all ends up being very complicated for her and unknowingly so until she really kind of dives into all of it.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 07:20)

• Ongoing Evolution & Honest Performance:
  • The team embraced continuous revision throughout previews, especially in staging the “ghost” and the ending, prioritizing truthful moments over fixed ideas.

    “There were different endings, like, every night … We kept trying to get to the honesty of this moment. … It was worth that exploration. A thousand percent.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 16:29)

4. Themes of Community, Belonging, and Reflection

• Beyond Gentrification—The Importance of Community:
  • The play challenges audiences to think about their role in community-building, moving away from passive proximity to active cultivation.

    “Community is a work. … You have to tend to [it]. … New York has always felt like a place where I’m like, teaches the world that this is really possible anywhere.” (James Iams, 20:41)

• Complicated Legacies and Intergenerational Memories:
  • Aisha is haunted—by literal and figurative ghosts—representing the inextricable ties between past trauma, family, and the dream of returning “home.”
• Audience Empathy and Culpability:
  • The creative team hopes for self-reflection from viewers, particularly regarding unseen trauma and unconscious participation in the cycles of change.

    “I want an audience to experience some reflection and think about the ways in which they might be culpable. … We’re all going about in some way maybe acting on some trauma that we’re not aware of and potentially doing more harm.” (Saheem Ali, 23:06)

5. Memorable Moments and Quotes

• Revelations about Character Construction:
  • Iams saw aspects of himself in multiple characters:

    “I’m a little bit of all of them. … All of them have things that they say or they do that I’m like, yeah, I totally get that.” (James Iams, 09:37)

• On Theatrical Devices:
  • The theatrical veil (plastic) both distances and invites the audience in, testing trust on stage and off.

    “I’ve learned that there’s really beauty in playing with the lights and playing with, you know, seeing things through some, you know, through something that’s there but you can actually see through adds another dimension to the theatricality of it.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 12:02)

• Step Routine as Community Memory:
  • The rehearsal and performance of a step routine became both a technical challenge and a celebration of community memory rooted in Black culture:

    “We had a lot of fun coming up with chants like, oh, you know, like, we’re hot, you’re not. We’re the heat, and all this kind of stuff … a fun little pocket … where she remembers, like, the fun memories of what made her childhood sweet.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 17:58)

• Reflections on the Play’s Impact:

  “Mostly, I … think it gives people at least one of my deepest impressions. It’s what it means to have your people, what it means to not feel alone in this world, and … for the people who are vying for that place in your life, who want to be your people, and that we would sort of allow that in.” (Susan Kelechi Watson, 21:42)

Important Timestamps

• [02:35] Iams on reframing gentrification away from “black and white.”
• [03:18] Ali on blending supernatural with history and capitalism.
• [04:02] Watson on the acting challenge and different community viewpoints.
• [07:20] Watson describes Aisha’s emotional crossroads.
• [10:38] Ali and Stewart discuss the set’s symbolic plastic and stagecraft.
• [14:08] Iams describes the house and kitchen as central locations and symbols.
• [16:29] Watson details the evolving performance and honest ending.
• [17:58] Group collaboration on the step routine—memory and community.
• [20:41] Iams on active vs. passive community, and takeaways for the audience.
• [21:42] Watson on the show’s deeper message about belonging and “your people.”
• [23:06] Ali hopes for audience self-reflection and empathy.

Notable Quotes

• “If we’re going to live together, we all got to live.” — Aisha’s line, cited by James Iams (05:05)
• “Something that’s tangled and complicated, and you have to kind of lean into the complication … some truths that are uncomfortable and, like, a landscape that’s uncomfortable too.” — Saheem Ali (06:26)
• “She spends [the play] trying to untangle this sense of what is making her feel that way, what is making her feel like she’s completely overwhelmed.” — Susan Kelechi Watson (07:20)
• “Community is a work. It’s actually a thing you have to cultivate.” — James Iams (20:41)
• “There is family, there is friends, there’s new community. There’s always someone in her life trying to be in that place.” — Susan Kelechi Watson (21:42)
• “I want an audience to ... think about the ways in which they might be culpable.” — Saheem Ali (23:06)

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, collaborative, and often playful, but always probing for deeper truths. There’s joy in creative discovery, even as the piece deals with fraught and timely themes. The cast and creatives hope the play sparks not just debate about gentrification, but renewed reflection on how we build, maintain, and truly participate in community—encouraging all to recognize “your people,” tend to real connection, and recognize the complexity in every neighborhood’s story.