Get Lit Preview: 'Kavalier and Clay' Becomes an Opera

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode: Get Lit Preview: 'Kavalier and Clay' Becomes an Opera
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Mason Bates (Composer)
Date: September 8, 2025

This episode of "All Of It" previews the Metropolitan Opera’s new adaptation of Michael Chabon’s Pulitzer-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, celebrating its 25th anniversary. Composer Mason Bates joins host Alison Stewart to discuss the process of transforming the sprawling, superhero-infused novel into an opera, exploring the creative and musical challenges encountered along the way. The conversation also previews the “Get Lit” Book Club event, where both Chabon and Bates will appear live with musical excerpts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of the Opera Adaptation

• Origin of the idea: Mason Bates shares that the project began when Peter Gelb, the Met Opera’s general manager, asked him for ideas after hearing his previous opera, "The (R)evolution of Steve Jobs."
  • “It just so happened I was reading the Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay and felt that it would be the perfect opera for the Met. It was big, it was sprawling, but it also, at its core, is a very simple story of these two cousins trying to make enough money to save their family.” – Mason Bates (01:47-02:16)

2. Musical Worlds and Influences

• Blending musical styles: Bates outlines three musical “worlds” for the opera, each reflecting a central aspect of the novel:
  • Superhero Soundworld: Symphonic electronica, techno, and sound design representing the comic book escapism.
  • 1940s New York: Big band influences to evoke the era’s energy.
  • Occupied Prague: Darker, Eastern European sounds to capture historical weight.
• Quote: "I was imagining this kind of symphonic electronica with techno and sound design. But of course, you also have New York in the 1940s, so there's a lot of big band in the show. And we're cutting back to Prague during the occupation, so we're hearing this kind of darker, Eastern European space. So it's kind of like three different sound worlds." – Mason Bates (02:28-03:10)
• Audio Excerpts: Clips from the opera’s score, including "Open Your Eyes" and "The Escapist," demonstrate these musical ideas in action.

3. Adapting a Modern Classic to the Stage

• Influence of superhero media: The book pre-dated the current superhero-dominated pop culture landscape, but its influence is now omnipresent.
  • "When Michael wrote this novel in like, you know, 2,000, I mean, this was in front of all of this stuff we're living in now of the cinematic universe and DC Comics really exploding on the big screen. And, you know, this was kind of a high art treatment and novel form of comic book artists. Now we're living in it…" – Mason Bates (05:21-05:44)
• Compositional inspirations: Bates credits his background as a DJ, contemporary film composers (John Williams, Hans Zimmer), and classical influences like Wagner and Gershwin, blending new and old for the opera’s score.

4. Opera, Electronics, and Storytelling

• Balancing genres: Bates reflects on integrating electronic music without overpowering the traditional opera experience.
  • “You can't just full on, bring in, you know, four on the floor techno that you might spin at like a Detroit warehouse...it has to kind of evolve, have more trap doors and more surprises.” – Mason Bates (06:46-07:11)
• Literary adaptation challenges: Bates discusses condensing the novel’s multi-decade timeline and making literary devices like letters work dramatically onstage.
  • “...In our adaptation, you know, Joe doesn't...disappear for like 10 plus years. It's more for the period of the war. And there are also certain characters that we love in the novel, but we need to sort of see them on stage.” – Mason Bates (07:51-08:21)

5. Themes and Mysticism

• Jewish mysticism and authenticity: The conversation touches on the influence of Jewish mysticism in the novel, as well as the importance of authenticity and personal experience in adaptation.
  • “One of the interesting things that people ask about is the Jewish mysticism that Michael has woven throughout the story and how we have dealt with that...Gene can speak so movingly about that. It is this kind of almost magical realism that kind of underpins some elements of the story.” – Mason Bates (09:15-09:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the challenge of adaptation:
  “We want to stay true to all the elements of this incredible novel that Michael has brought to life, but we have to find ways to adapt it and compress things when we're coming to the stage in order to stay faithful to it.” – Mason Bates (08:05-08:21)

• On musical influences:
  "I look at a composer like George Gershwin who took two things, jazz and classical music, and really kind of bumped up both of them and in an original way. And I look up to him as a composer who could mix two different kinds of music in a very substantive and authentic way." – Mason Bates (07:11-07:27)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:09 — Alison Stewart introduces the episode and Book Club pick (The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay).
• 01:38 — Mason Bates joins the interview.
• 02:28 — Discussion of the opera’s three distinct musical sound worlds.
• 03:12 — Audio excerpt: "The Escapist"
• 05:21 — Bates reflects on superhero culture and musical inspiration.
• 06:46 — The challenge of balancing electronic music with opera conventions.
• 07:51 — Adapting the novel’s timeline and dramatic devices for the stage.
• 09:15 — Jewish mysticism in the story and the opera.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful peek into the ambitious operatic adaptation of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, highlighting Mason Bates’s boundary-pushing approach to composition and adaptation. Through lively discussion and evocative music samples, listeners gain a richer appreciation for the challenges and artistry involved in bringing a modern literary classic to the grand scale of the Metropolitan Opera.

Don’t miss the live “Get Lit” event at the New York Public Library on September 24th, featuring author Michael Chabon, librettist Gene Shear, and composer Mason Bates with special performances from the new opera.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. This month's get lit with all of it book club pick is the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay by Michael Chabon, a story about two Jewish cousins who create a successful comic book series in 1940s New York. The book turns 25 this month and it's celebrating the birthday as any New Yorker might at the Met Opera. Beginning later this month, the opera will stage a new adaptation of the novel from composer Mason Bates and librettist Jean Shear. Here's a clip of the aria open your eyes.

[Narrator/Reader]

We have a ship called the Ar of Merian. It can carry but a few hundred children at a time. What is crossing delivers these precious children to freedom. We cannot save them all, but shall we not save those we can?

[Alison Stewart]

We'll speak with Shabon Ashir at our get lit event on September 24 about the novel and its opera adaptation. We'll also get to experience some musical excerpts of the novel live in our library space. It is going to be a very special event. And joining me now with a preview of the event and this new opera production is its composer, Mason Bates. Hi, Mason.

[Mason Bates]

Hey. It is so great to be here with you.

[Alison Stewart]

Gene Shearer told the Brooklyn Rail that adapting this novel was your idea. Where did you get the idea?

[Mason Bates]

Well, Peter Gelb heard my first opera, the revolutionist Steve Jobs, and said, we would love to work with you. Do you have an idea? And it just so happened I was reading the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay and felt that it would be the perfect opera for the Met. It was big, it was sprawling, but it also, at its core, is a very simple story of these two cousins trying to make enough money to save their family.

[Alison Stewart]

You're both known for orchestral compositions as well as electronic ones. So when you started to think about what a Cavalier and Clay opera would sound like, what first came to your mind?

[Mason Bates]

Well, you first think of superheroes because that's one of the phenomenal things about this story. It's about comic book artists in the kind of birth of the industry in the forties in New York. In this case, it's Joe Cavaliere and Sam Clay coming up with the escapist who is this superhero who frees people from their bounds. And so I was imagining this kind of symphonic electronica with techno and sound design. But of course, you also have New York in the 1940s, so there's a lot of big band in the show. And we're cutting back to Prague during the occupation, so we're Hearing this kind of darker, Eastern European space. So it's kind of like three different sound worlds.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's hear a clip of your score.

[Alison Stewart]

This is a piece called the Escapist. Anything you want to say before we play it?

[Mason Bates]

This is when Cavalier and Clay are coming up with the first idea to create the superhero.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's listen.

[Narrator/Reader]

Sam.

[Interviewer/Host]

I want to wait for that little last piece to get in there. That's the Escapist. I'm speaking to Mason Bates, composer of the new opera adaptation of the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay. The. The novel by Michael Chabon is our September get lit with all of it book club event. We're gonna have a special performance from the opera at our event on September 24th. Okay. In that I heard a little bit of a superhero score. Like you said, it could be the opening credits for any of the movies we would see over the summer. Where did you draw your inspiration from?

[Mason Bates]

Well, you know, what's interesting about what you just said is that when Michael wrote this novel in like, you know, 2,000, I mean, this was in front of all of this stuff we're living in now of the cinematic universe and DC Comics really exploding on the big screen. And, you know, this was kind of a high art treatment and novel form of comic book artists. Now we're living in it, you know, where every other movie is one of these things. I found it fascinating to look at the birth of this world in the, you know, around the 40s. It might have been the 30s as well, of this kind of American mythology. And so obviously I think of. In my background as a dj, I love having electronica and techno beats kind of propel things. I have analog synthesizers in there. There's also certainly some inspiration from composers such as Wagner, who can really whip up this incredible symphonic space. And, you know, obviously there's composers of our time, composers from, you know, John Williams to Hans Zimmer, who you hear in film. So I try to kind of be omnivorous in everything I listen to. And it's kind of a big mix of new and old.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, that reached my last. My next question. It's like, how do you balance the traditional opera composition with music from other places?

[Mason Bates]

Well, it's very much about understanding the psychological space of the theater. In this case the opera house, or if you're in the symphony in the concert hall. You can't just full on, bring in, you know, four on the floor techno that you might spin at like a Detroit warehouse. Not because you're not allowed to. It's Just it wouldn't land the right way. So it has to kind of evolve, have more trap doors and more surprises. And the symphonic space, too, has to kind of lock in terms of tempo. You know, I look at a composer like George Gershwin who took two things, jazz and classical music, and really kind of bumped up both of them and in an original way. And I look up to him as a composer who could mix two different kinds of music in a very substantive and authentic way.

[Interviewer/Host]

Cavillar and Clay is a book with multiple levels of storytelling, different plot lines they weave in and out of each other. What was a challenging part of translating the book to the format, the opera format?

[Mason Bates]

Well, there's one interesting element of time. You know, I think in the novel it's like over, I want to say, 11 plus years, and Joe Cavaliere has a kind of psychedelic break and disappears from his family for a long time. We want to stay true to all the elements of this incredible novel that Michael has brought to life, but we have to find ways to adapt it and compress things when we're coming to the stage in order to stay faithful to it. So in our adaptation, you know, Joe doesn't, for example, disappear for like 10 plus years. It's more for the period of the war. And there are also certain characters that we love in the novel, but we need to sort of see them on stage. You know, like in the book, a lot is learned through letters. You know, it's like an epistolary thing where you get a letter in a novel, you can do that because it's like a story within a story. In our show, you know, we really needed to travel to Prague to see the family tragically kind of picked off by SS officers. So you have to bring the drama on stage in an opera, you know, that's kind of what we go to the opera house for. And Gene was a phenomenal collaborator.

[Alison Stewart]

Okay, I'm going to speak to Jean and Mike on September 24th at the New York Public Library. Is there anything I should ask them about the novel or the story or something that you've always wanted to know?

[Mason Bates]

Well, I mean, one of the interesting things that people ask about is the Jewish mysticism that Michael has woven throughout the story and how we have dealt with that. I think Gene can speak so movingly about that. You know, it is this kind of almost magical realism that kind of underpins some elements of the story. And musically, we bring in some folk songs. And, you know, I was spending a lot of time going to Temple Emmanuel in San Francisco where I live. But Gene, you know, having kind of lived the story growing up in, you know, New York and Queens, has a unique perspective about that.

[Alison Stewart]

Mason Bates is the composer of the new opera adaptation of the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay at the Met Opera. We'll have a performance from it at our September 24th get lit book Club at the New York Public Library. Thank you so much, Mason for joining us today.

[Mason Bates]

Totally. It's great to be part of this.

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