Get Lit: S.A. Cosby's Dark Thriller 'King of Ashes'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Get Lit: S.A. Cosby's Dark Thriller 'King of Ashes'
Air Date: November 3, 2025
Guest: S.A. Cosby
Host: Alison Stewart
Key Theme: Examining the intersections of family, crime, Southern culture, and identity through the lens of S.A. Cosby’s latest novel, King of Ashes.

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Episode Overview

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart sits down with acclaimed crime novelist S.A. Cosby to explore his new novel, King of Ashes. Chosen as the October selection for the Get Lit book club, the novel follows the Carruthers siblings as they struggle with generational trauma, family loyalty, and the corrosive shadow of organized crime in Southern Virginia. Through audience questions and candid discussion, Cosby and Stewart delve deep into the book’s themes, the significance of its setting, character construction, and larger cultural conversations about masculinity, trauma, and race.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Literary Influences

• Opening with Faulkner and Escobar (01:06)
  • S.A. Cosby: Quotes from Faulkner and Pablo Escobar set up the novel’s dual focus on Southern tradition and the truths revealed by crime.
  • Quote: “Crime tells us the truth about society… crime and crime fiction is the gospel of the dispossessed.” (S.A. Cosby, 01:24)

2. Setting & Southern Gothic Roots

• Jefferson Run, Virginia as Microcosm (02:12)
  • Based on Petersburg, VA, with its history of economic decline and gentrification.
  • Cosby: “The curse of Southern Gothic fiction is that the corruption of the land represents the corruption of the soul.” (S.A. Cosby, 03:12)

3. Naming — Symbolism and Meaning (03:47)

• Each sibling’s name has symbolic weight:
  • Roman: Late-stage Roman Empire—decaying from within.
  • Nevaeh: “Heaven” spelled backwards—caught in purgatory.
  • Dante: As in Dante’s Inferno—searching, not inherently bad, just lost.
  • Quote: “The names always mean something.” (S.A. Cosby, 04:36)

4. Funeral Industry & Empathy (05:15)

• Research & Personal Experience
  • Cosby worked in a funeral home, shaping his view of empathy and the cycle of grief.
  • Crematorium is both literal and metaphorical—fire as destruction and revelation.
  • Quote: “Fire burns away the false artifices… and once you burn it away, you see who people really are.” (S.A. Cosby, 06:26)

5. Evolution of the Novel (06:43)

• Original book concept was about estranged friends; pivoted to family drama driven by crime, influenced by mafia epics like The Godfather and Goodfellas.

6. Money, Morality, and Masculinity (08:54)

• Roman’s Relationship with Wealth

  • Money as both bridge and poison—enables but corrodes.
  • Quote: “Money is sort of like gasoline… you can use it to start a fire to warm yourself. You can also use to burn down your whole house.” (S.A. Cosby, 09:02)
  • Roman compartmentalizes morality, justifies increasingly dire actions by prioritizing family.

• Masculinity & Kink (10:44)

  • Roman’s use of a dominatrix introduced early to break traditional molds of masculinity, open a dialogue about sexual openness in the Black community.
  • Quote: “There are multiple types of masculinity. And no one’s definition is correct, and no one’s definition is wrong.” (S.A. Cosby, 11:54)

7. Dante — Accountability and Honesty (12:54)

• Dante, often despised by readers, doesn’t compartmentalize—he owns his mistakes, tells the family the truth.
• Cosby: “Dante is the one that speaks truth to power.” (S.A. Cosby, 13:09)

8. Street Smart versus Book Smart (14:38)

• Explored through Roman’s confrontations with gang members.
• Highlights a broader tension in the Black community between intellectualism and street survival.
• Quote: “For Roman… he learns very quickly that he has to be both.” (S.A. Cosby, 16:09)

9. The Book of Five Rings vs. The Art of War (17:02)

• Roman is drawn to the Book of Five Rings for its philosophy of thinking many steps ahead—strategy and long-term planning.

10. Nevaeh — The Burdened Caretaker (18:31)

• Nevaeh embodies the familiar trope of Black women holding families together; Cosby worked to avoid the “angry Black woman” stereotype.
• Quote: “Nevaeh’s never put her mask on. She’s always helped everybody else get theirs on.” (S.A. Cosby, 19:36)

11. Realism and the Consequences of Violence (20:23)

• Cosby avoids gratuitous violence; insists that violence in crime fiction should always have real consequences.
• Quote: “I want you to taste the copper in the air when someone gets shot in the face. I want you to feel those things because if you don’t, then you don’t realize how much danger the characters are in.” (S.A. Cosby, 21:21)

12. Family, Guilt, and Complicity (23:02)

• Roman is not a sociopath but someone adept at compartmentalizing guilt and pain for what he considers a greater cause—the family’s survival.
• Quote: “There’s a part of him that likes being the smartest guy in the room… for lack of a better word, gets off on that.” (S.A. Cosby, 23:21)

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Audience Q&A Highlights

Conceptual Continuity & Cosby’s Shared Universe (24:47)

• Cosby’s works exist in the same world, with references and cameos connecting characters across novels.

Therapy, Trauma, and Taboo (26:08)

• Audience member Anaise points out the absence of therapy in the book; Cosby confirms it was intentional to reflect real taboos about mental health, especially in the Black community.
  • Quote: “If they would just talk to each other and go to therapy, this book’d be 30 pages… there is a taboo about admitting you have a psychological component that you need to deal with.” (S.A. Cosby, 26:28)

Jealousy’s Future (27:56)

• Cosby hints at possible sequels and further exploration of Jay "Jealousy"’s journey, but stresses her role as someone who accepts Roman as he is.

Sympathy for Dante (29:37)

• Dante’s flaws are not ingratitude but the result of trauma and self-loathing; audience pushback reflects the difficulty of loving messy, honest characters.

Room for Roman’s Growth? (31:31)

• Roman’s arrogance is a shield—acknowledging it would mean losing his edge, something he’s not prepared to risk.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Crime and crime fiction is the gospel of the dispossessed.” — S.A. Cosby, 01:31
• “Fire is a metaphor for both change and destruction… it burns away the false artifices.” — S.A. Cosby, 06:27
• “Money is the bridge from the person he used to be to the person he wants to be.” — S.A. Cosby, 09:02
• “Roman has a flexible morality when it comes to money.” — S.A. Cosby, 09:18
• “There are multiple types of masculinity… and no one's definition is correct, and no one's one definition is wrong.” — S.A. Cosby, 11:54
• “Dante is like the fool in King Lear. He’s the one person in the book who always tells the truth.” — S.A. Cosby, 13:09
• “The curse of Southern Gothic fiction is that the corruption of the land represents the corruption of the soul.” — S.A. Cosby, 03:12
• “Violence has consequences. Violence itself has consequences for both the people that mete it out and the people that receive it.” — S.A. Cosby, 20:39

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:06 — Opening quotes from Faulkner and Escobar
• 02:12 — The making of Jefferson Run, VA
• 03:47 — The meaning behind the siblings’ names
• 05:29 — Research and metaphor of the crematorium
• 08:54 — Roman’s relationship with money and morality
• 10:44 — Masculinity and sexual openness with Roman’s dominatrix visits
• 12:54 — Dante’s accountability, honesty, and reader perceptions
• 14:38 — Street smart vs. book smart: race, respect, survival
• 17:02 — Book of Five Rings vs. The Art of War
• 18:31 — Nevaeh’s burdens, survival, and breaking familial patterns
• 20:23 — Violence: reality and consequence in crime fiction
• 23:02 — Compartmentalization and the psychology of family protection
• 24:47 — Cosby’s literary universe
• 26:08 — Mental health, trauma, and cultural taboos around therapy
• 27:56 — The fate of Jealousy and relationships
• 29:37 — Challenging reader dislike of Dante; creating complex characters
• 31:31 — Roman’s arrogance and the limits of self-awareness

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Conclusion

S.A. Cosby’s candid, humorous, and insightful conversation with Alison Stewart reveals the rich layers beneath King of Ashes—from its allusions to Southern history and literature to its deeply human exploration of trauma, masculinity, and the struggle to break generational cycles. Engaging directly with audience questions, Cosby roots his fiction in real social contexts, challenging readers to find empathy and truth in even the darkest of characters.

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Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The latest thriller from novelist S.A. cosby tells the story of a family in deep trouble. It's called King of Ashes. It centers on the Carruthers family, who own and operate a crematory. The eldest sibling, Roman, has fled their small town of Jefferson Run, Virginia. He's become a wealthy and successful financial adviser in Atlanta. Roman's sister Nevaeh, has stayed home to help their dad with the crematorium. Their youngest brother, Dante, is struggling to find his place and struggles with drugs. That addiction causes Dante to become indebted to a dangerous local gang. When Roman gets a call that his.

[Interviewer/Host]

Father has been in a car accident and is in a coma at the hospital, he heads home to Jefferson Run. There he learns his dad was targeted as a warning from the gang. Now he has to figure out how.

[Alison Stewart]

Far he will go to save his.

[Interviewer/Host]

Family from gangsters hell bent on getting their money. King of Ashes was our October get lit with all of it book club selection. I began my conversation with SA Cosby by asking why he opened his novel with quotes from William Faulkner and Pablo Escobar.

[S.A. Cosby]

One, because I love Faulkner, and one because I think crime tells us the truth about society.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Tell me more.

[S.A. Cosby]

I think Pablo Escobar. If you talk about Pablo Escobar, Frank Lucas, Nicky Barnes, you talk about old Southern criminals like Billy Peart from the Memphis mafia and folks like that. I think when you're talking about crime, you talking about crime fiction. To me, crime and crime fiction is the gospel of the dispossessed. There are books that you read that you may not be able to relate to. Like if you read Philip Roth, you may not be able to relate to being a professor at a northeast college who's passing. But we've all been hungry, we've all been in pain, we've all been lied to, and we've all lied to people. And I think crime fiction is the one genre that brings all that together. So, of course, I had to quote Pablo. Plus, you know, Nas drops him in a song, so I gotta go.

[Audience Member Anaise]

There you go.

[Alison Stewart]

There you go.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

This story takes place in Jefferson Run, Virginia. Everything in Virginia is named after Thomas Jefferson.

[Alison Stewart]

You should say, start out, what was.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

The inspiration for Jefferson Run? And is TJ Involved in that in any way?

[S.A. Cosby]

No, he's not. You know, it's either Jefferson or Robert E. Lee, which both of those have problems.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Exactly.

[S.A. Cosby]

Jefferson Run is actually based on a city in Virginia called Petersburg, Virginia, which is about 40 miles outside of Richmond. And a lot of the gentrification and issues that Jefferson Run suffers are issues that Petersburg has suffered. Petersburg used to be the number one manufacturer of house windows in America in the 40s and 50s. And once manufacturing moved out, of course, the shadow industry, that is crime, moved in. And I really wanted to talk about that in a way that wasn't heavy handed in using the Carruthers family as a prism to talk about how the economy of this place can affect not just the way people behave, but the way people feel, the way their spirits are broken, in a way. And so for me, the idea of Justin Run was to show this place that has the potential to be great or was once great. But much like a lot of places in the south, you know, the curse of Southern Gothic fiction is that the corruption of the land represents the corruption of the soul. And so I wanted to kind of talk about that in a way that I thought, I hope would bring people into the conversation.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

I wanted to ask you how you came up with the names of these three siblings. Roman, the sort of take care of an older brother. Dante Cavanar, do well. And Nevia, I know what that is. The sister who tries to make things right in the business world. How did you come up with those three names?

[S.A. Cosby]

I think people that know me would probably say I overthink too much. But, like, I wanted to use the names. In my books, names always mean something. You know, like in Blacktop Wasteland, the main character's name is Beauregard Montage. And for me, I was reclaiming the name Beauregard and a lot of places. That is a stereotypical Confederate Southern name. And I wanted to give it to an African American man and sort of reclaim that ideal and all of a sinner's bleed Titus crown. Both his names refer to a king or a leader. And so I wanted to use that to represent him for the characters in King of Ashes. For me, Roman is sort of like the late stage Roman Empire. He thinks he's this person of chivalry and honor and respect, but really a part of him is falling apart on the inside. He's riding from the inside out. Nevaeh, which is heaven backwards, is sort of the same in her life. She's caught between heaven and hell. She's sort of in this purgatory that she can't escape, that really her family sort of forced her into. And of course, Dante for me represents Dante's Inferno. Dante is the character who's searching for something, trying to find something. In the actual poem, Dante's Not a bad person. He's just lost. He's searching for Beatrice. And Dante himself is searching for something to bring him back into the world, to bring him back from the brink, the precipice of the pain that he's experienced. So the names always mean something.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Did you always know you wanted three siblings?

[S.A. Cosby]

Yeah. Cause I didn't want anybody to think it was about me and my brother. Because it's just two of us. So I had to add three to make sure nobody thought it was us. Cause I actually like my brothers.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

So the family owns a crematorium. And funeral businesses used to be the way that black business could grow. It really meant something. If you could own a funeral home or a crematorium. What kind of research did you do into that?

[S.A. Cosby]

Well, I used to work at a funeral home. I used to pick up bodies for a funeral home. And so I used to be. I've had a lot of different jobs. I've not been good at any of them except writing. And so I used to work at a hardware store. And I left the hardware store to work at a funeral home. So I would pick up bodies. It was basically called the removal service. And the thing you learn about whether it's a funeral home or a crematory is that that industry teaches you a lot about empathy. It teaches a lot about understanding. Many times, you're seeing people on the absolute worst day of their lives, and everybody handles it differently. You'll see families that will joke, will tell humorous stories. You'll see families that are devastated, that can hardly speak. And for me, I wanted to sort of take that empathy and inject it into the book. Also, with the crematory, I wanted to create sort of a metaphor with fire, because fire is a metaphor for both change and destruction. But also, fire burns away the false artifices of a lot of things. And once you burn it away, you see who people really are. You see what something really is. And so, for me, the fire was sort of symbolic of burning away this sort of false image that these three siblings have created for themselves and not dealing with the trauma of their past. And so the fire is a way to show who they really are on the inside.

[Audience Member Anaise]

And.

[S.A. Cosby]

And some of that is beautiful, and some of that's ugly, but that's who we are as humans.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Was this the book you were always planning to write?

[S.A. Cosby]

No, no, not at all.

[Alison Stewart]

Really.

[S.A. Cosby]

What was the initial?

[Interviewer/Panelist]

What was the original?

[S.A. Cosby]

I had messed around with a book, and I'm actually gonna come back to it, but I had messed around With a book trying to write about two best friends. Two male best friends who are growing apart as time goes on. One's an artist, one's a criminal, and I don't think I was emotionally ready to write that particular book. That's something I've dealt with in my own personal life with friends that I've grown apart from, friends that. Not friends that we've had problem or an issue. But we've just separated and we've gone our separate ways. And once I realized I wasn't ready to write that book, I came back to the idea of this book, and I've always wanted to write. I think crime writers have four or five different books in them. I think all crime writers have a serial killer book, and I've done that. I think all crime writers have a revenge novel in them. I've done that. I think most crime writers either have or want to write a heist novel because they're so fun to write. And I've done that, and I wanted to sort of write a crime epic. This book was partially inspired. I love the Godfather. I love Mafia movies. I love Casino. I love Goodfellas. You know, I love American Gangster. Any movie about organized crime, if it comes on tv, I'm gonna sit down and watch it. So. And so I wanted to sort of, for my purposes, deconstruct that idea of organized crime. What does that really mean? What does it mean when you have a. You're trying to create a business out of a. Like I said, a secret shadow industry? And how does that affect you? How do you compartmentalize the things that you have to do to be a crime boss? And the thing about. I love about the Godfather is the character of Michael Corleone. And I'm fascinated with the idea of what do you do when the thing that you're really good at is horrible? You know, Michael Corleone is. You could make the argument that he's a much better crime boss than his father or his brother. He's smarter. He's ruthless.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's.

[S.A. Cosby]

You know, there's a scene in the book, in the movie, Excuse me, in RIP Diane Keaton, where she tells Michael, she says, I knew you would win because they can't beat you, because he's that smart. And I wanted to take that type of mentality, that type of strength and confidence, and sort of transfer it to a character that I created and talked about. So, again, for me, it's always fascinating because that type of confidence always has a cause.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Roman is living in Atlanta. He's wealthy, works as a financial advisor. What does money mean to Roman?

[S.A. Cosby]

Money is everything to Roman. Money is the bridge that carries him from the person he used to be to the person he wants to be. But Roman also understands that money is poison. It's acid. It burns relationships. It burns friendships. Money burns marriages. Money is sort of like gasoline. You know, you can use it to start a fire to warm yourself. You can also use to burn down your whole house. And I think Roman has an innate understanding of that in a way that maybe his brother and his sister don't. But that understanding comes also at the cost of a little bit of his morality. He has a flexible morality when it comes to money. There's a line in the book where he says, there are no lines that you cross. There's only choices. I don't agree with that, but I think Roman believes it, and I think he believes it wholeheartedly.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, is there a red line for him to step over, or is it kind of blurry?

[S.A. Cosby]

I think at the beginning of the book, it starts with red lines, but those red lines start to dissipate as the story goes on and as he becomes more comfortable with the idea that he's very good at this. And there's a scene in the book where Dante tells him, you might have started out doing this for us, but you're doing this for you because you like it. And that's something that's hard for him to accept. And as you see the book go on, you see those red lines start to evaporate because he tells himself, everything I'm doing is for my family. He's able to compartmentalize pretty horrific things he ends up doing. But that wouldn't work if you didn't believe that he does love his family. He does. He loves his brother. He loves his sister. He loves his father. He misses his mother. He's not a sociopath. But he's someone who has developed an ability to compartmentalize the. The darker parts of himself and the parts of himself that feel guilt.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

I do want to point out that he likes to go to a dominatrix. Yeah, he did that before he went home.

[S.A. Cosby]

We all have our hobbies.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Why did you want that to be one of the first things that we knew about him?

[S.A. Cosby]

I wanted to do that because a lot of my characters, the characters I write about are what we would call traditionally masculine.

[Audience Member Anaise]

Right.

[S.A. Cosby]

Ike and Buddy Lee from Razorbay. Tears are tough guys. Beauregard Bug from Blacktop Wasteland is probably somebody you shouldn't have cross Titus and all the sinners Bleed. You know, this my favorite scene in all the Sinners Bleed is Titus is arresting his brother at a bar. He's got in a fight. And this guy who wants to fight his brother some more, he's trying to get to him, and Titus tells him. He says, you know, there's nothing over here for you but regret. And the guy doesn't listen, and he regrets it. So. But those are very physically imposing men. I wanted to show that Roman is a different type of man, that he is someone who is in touch with the king side of his life. He's in touch with that submissive aspect of the life. He's intelligent, he's intelligent, he's smart. He's not really physically imposing, but he's probably the smartest person in every room that he enters. And I sort of wanted to create a character that doesn't have those, quote unquote, traditional ideas of masculinity, but that doesn't mean he's not masculine. And so showing that he goes for dominatrix, showing that he is a numbers guy, showing that he's someone who is thinks before he acts, shows that there are multiple types of masculinity. And no one's definition is correct, and no one's one definition is wrong. And so I wanted to show that. And also I kind of wanted to have this conversation about, in a very, very subtle way, about kink in the African American community. I have a friend, and I'm not gonna say who it is, but he told me one time, he's like, yeah, man. So me and my partner, we went to this party and we hung out and we did all this stuff. I said, oh, you went to a swing party? No, no, no, no, no. We ain't go swing party. That's white people stuff. And I'm like, nah, I think that was a pretty much a swing party, I'm pretty sure. And I wanted to show this idea of exploring and being comfortable with your sexuality outside of what is usually a very conservative sort of African American sort of auspice. So Roman incorporates all that. And the thing that I also want to do with Roman was that he does meet someone who's able to embrace that part of himself without making him feel ashamed. And I think that's important too, because nothing that I write about in the book is meant to make anyone ashamed. It's just meant to sort of give you a different perspective on a different type of humanity and masculinity.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Let's talk about Dante they get in this whole mess because of Dante. Why doesn't Dante realize the potential consequences of his actions when he buys. Agrees to buy drugs from this gang?

[S.A. Cosby]

Because poor Dante's never been held accountable for anything. You know, he's never had to actually pay consequences for the things that he does. You know, it's funny. I was just talking to my editor. She here tonight. And I go online, and I look at stuff that people say, and it breaks my heart that people hate Dante. They're like, oh, he get on my nerves. I couldn't deal with him. I couldn't stand him. And it's like, y', all. You know, y'. All, Dante's gone through a lot. You know, he is. You know, Dante is like the fool in King Lear because Dante is the one person in the book that always tells the truth to his family. He always tells who he is. He's not fooling himself about what's going on. He understands the danger. He understand that he messed up. He's very aware of that now. He may not be able to rectify it, but he never does what Roman does, which is compartmentalize what they're going through. Dante is the one who says, you know, I know I messed up. They're gonna kill us. This is dangerous. At one point in the book, he tells Roman, you know, you may have started out doing this to protect us, but you're doing it now because you like it. And he's the one that speaks truth to power to him. That doesn't mean he's perfect, doesn't mean he's the best character in the book. But I think if you read the whole book, you understand why Dante is the way he is. And, you know, a part of him is also this. Again, this idea of masculinity. He wanted to prove himself, wanted to prove himself to his dad. He wanted to prove himself to his brother, that he didn't need them. The sad fact of the matter is, though, he desperately needs them in a way he's not really ready to accept.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

The gang is called the Black Baron Boys. Is that named after the baseball team?

[S.A. Cosby]

Well, it's a combination of the baseball team and a local gang in Virginia, so. Which they seem to be okay with it, so.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

All right, glad to know. It's interesting. When Roman is talking to the gang members Satorin and Tranquil, there seems to be this case of street smart versus book smart. Right. Street smart versus book smart. Tell me a little bit more about that, about how that's their fight.

[S.A. Cosby]

Deep down, I think that's a fight that we have in African. African American community. I think there's this misunderstanding that if you go to college and you become an intellectual and you get a degree, well, you're soft, you're book smart, but you ain't real. But inversely, there's this idea among some people, not everyone, that, well, if you come from the street, then I immediately look down upon you because you don't have the same intellectual capabilities I have. And I think the truth is in the middle. I think a lot of us saw recently this episode of the Joe Budden podcast. Well, yeah, y' all know what I'm talking about where Marla, Lamont Hill and Flip got into a conversation. And I think for me it was interesting that the gentleman, Flip, I think he made a mistake. He thought that he could say whatever he could wanted to demart Lamont Hill and that he wasn't going to be able to respond in kind. One of my favorite scenes, and I don't watch a lot of Tyler Perry movies, but one of my favorite scenes is in a direct mad black woman where the lawyer says, don't let the suit fool you, you know, And I think there is this sort of connectivity or this sort of meeting in the middle that we can have about street smarts versus intellectual capabilities, book smart versus common sense, and so on and so forth. I think there is a sort of misunderstanding that we propagate a lot when we don't talk to each other about these issues and these things. But for Roman, what he understood, understands, and I hope it comes across in the book, he learns very quickly that he has to be both. He has to embrace both sides of himself. It's not so much that he's against or he looks down upon Torn and Tranquil. He looks down upon that part of himself. He wants to excise that part of himself. But if you read the book, there are instances in his past where he's been very street smart. You know, there's a story he tells Chauncey, who is the policeman that seen his sister about when they were kids and this guy was beating up and taking her lunch and how he was able to manipulate a situation to take care of that. That's street smarts. That's survival instinct. That's a part of him that he doesn't want to acknowledge. And so I think when you see the course of the book, he's able to come around to really understanding that part and even in some ways maybe have sympathy for Torn and Tranquil.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

It's interesting he talks about how when he was in school that other students believed in the Art of War, but he believed in another ancient book, the Book of Five Rings. What is that book about and why does it appeal to him?

[S.A. Cosby]

So a lot of people read the Art of War by Sun Tzu, which is, you know, a lot of corporate people read it, a lot of military people read it. To me, it is a very over exaggerated idea of strategy, of Machiavellian pronouncements and movements. The Book of Five Rings is much more philosophical. The Book of Five Rings is much more about the reality of once you put your plan into place, what happens next, you know, and for Roman, he sees himself much more in line with the author of that book because he always wants to think five, six, seven, eight steps ahead. You know, he's accumulating in wealth, but he doesn't want to visit an island. As he says earlier in the book, he wants to own the island. And so for him, that book has a lot more in line with his personality. The irony is he doesn't really think that far ahead. He doesn't think about every consequence of every action that he does, and it has horrible consequences later in the book. But I did want to have that moment where people can sort of make that decision for themselves and see the difference between those two. Really one of both of them are incredible books. But I did want to see that idea of the idea of pertinent, aggressive strategy versus long term planning.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

What is poor Nivea to do?

[S.A. Cosby]

Leave town. Just leave town, get the hell out of town, get going, pack our bags. And, you know, I worked really hard on Nevaeh to make sure that she wasn't pathetic or pitiful. Also, I wanted to work really hard to make sure that she wasn't someone who came off as angry as the quote, unquote, angry black woman, because that's not who she is. You know, Nevaeh is someone who is doing what a lot of African American women did, what women in my family did, which is stepping up and holding the world together while the men fall apart. And for me, the hardest part to write in that book, there's a scene in the book, and again, it's ain't no spoiler. They get a phone call in the middle of the night and Roman has to go out in the middle of the night and she tells him, you can't leave because I can't lose you too. She loves her brothers and she cares about them. And it breaks her heart that she knows they're lying to her. She Knows they're not telling her everything. There's another scene in the book where they're at the crematory and she realizes some of the supplies are missing because that's her life. And Roman doesn't understand that. She understands that place intrinsically. Every brick, every nail, every screw is a part of her. You're not gonna fool her about that, you know? And so for me, I felt I wanted, at the end of the book, I wanted her to come to a place where she could actually live for herself and not worry about them. And, you know, I think so many of us, whether you want to call it people pleasing, whether you want to call it trauma, survival techniques, we overextend and create a sense of ourselves that we have to take care of everybody, and you can't. It's like the thing they tell you on a plane, you have to put your oxygen mask on first before you can help anybody else. And Nevaeh's never put her mask on. She's always helped everybody else get theirs on. And I really wanted to sort of cultivate that idea that she's coming around and understanding she has to take care of herself now, regardless of the consequences.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

The book has a lot of death in it. One's particularly something something.

[S.A. Cosby]

Yeah, a lot of them are gruesome.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Yeah, that was fun. This group read the book.

[Alison Stewart]

Yes. They read the book. Yes. Most people in the audience read the book.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

How far did you decide to push things?

[Alison Stewart]

Did you have to come back ever?

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Did you push yourself forward ever when it came to the violence?

[S.A. Cosby]

I never use violence gratuitously in my books. I never write violence for the fun of it. I mean, I joked about it just now, but I never do because violence has consequences. And I don't think the thing I hate about a book or any novel, but especially a crime novel, when the violence doesn't have consequences. Like, the hero gets shot in chapter two in the arm, and by chapter four, he's doing, like, clap push ups, you know, not just the physical consequences, but the emotional violence. Violence itself has consequences for both the people that mete it out and the people that receive it. And I always wanted to make sure that the violence in my books is brutal and cruel and awful so you realize how bad it is. You know, I don't want you to walk away from like, oh, well, there's a bloodless murder here, like a cozy mystery, which I love cozy mysteries.

[Alison Stewart]

But in my.

[S.A. Cosby]

My writing, I don't want you to feel that way. I want you to see the consequences of the violence. I want you to feel it and smell it and taste it. You know, I want you to taste the copper in the air when someone gets shot in the face. I want you to feel those things because if you don't, then you don't realize how much danger the characters are in. You also don't realize how psychologically damaged they're gonna be at the end of the book. You know, people may survive my books, but they never get over the situations they've been through. So for me, it's important. Again, I never want to use violence gratuitously. I never want violence to be just a prop for the. For the plot. But I want it to have consequence. I want it to mean something. And if it means something to me, then hopefully it'll mean something to the reader.

[Alison Stewart]

You're listening to my conversation with author S.A. cosby. His new novel, King of Ashes was our October get lit with all of it book club selection. We'll have more with S.A. cosby after a quick break. This is all of it. You are listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue my conversation with author S.A. cosby about his new novel, King of Ashes. It was our October get lit with all of it book club selection. Thanks to our partners at the New York Public Library, 3,819 New Yorkers were able to check out a copy of the book to read along with us. As always, our audience members had some great questions for our authority. You'll hear some of those in just a bit. But first, here's more of my conversation with SA Cosby.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

It's interesting you say about violence because it kind of. It creeps up on Roman. It just gets worse and worse and worse. But there is a part of him that likes outmaneuvering these two men just in a way. Does. Does he kind of like taking on this gang?

[S.A. Cosby]

I think if you asked him, he would say no. But if you ask the people that love him, they would say yeah, yeah, like his brother. Like Dante calls him out on it, Nevaeh call, even jealousy, his girlfriend. And there's a part of him that does like it. There's a part of him that likes being the smartest guy in the room, you know, being as he says in one part of the book, he's the Komodo dragon. He'll bite you on Tuesday and you'll die on Friday. You'll never see it coming. And I think that's part of him that, for lack of a better word, gets off on that. However, having said that, I don't think he's a sociopath, because there is a part of him that feels guilt. There's a part of him that feels sadness. There's a part of him that realizes what he's doing is wrong. But he's so far in it, he's gotten so good at it, he can't stop himself.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

It's also. It's them or us.

[S.A. Cosby]

It's them or us. He tells. He says that in the book, you know, it's us three, you know, and nobody else. We gotta look out for ourselves. And I think he's able, again, to compartmentalize everything he does, because, again, I don't think the book works if you don't realize how much he loves his family. You know, there's a scene in the book where he's talking to Nevaeh, and she has these photos on the wall of animals from Africa. And he tells her, like, well, I'll come back after all this is settled and you can go on a safari. And she's like, yeah, right. He's like, no, I mean it. I think he means that. I think he does. There's a scene where he talks about Dante, how he envies Dante, because Dante is so naturally charismatic. He's so easy to get along with, you know, and it's funny, because Dante has that same moment with Roman. He talks about how smart his brother is, how much he looks up to him, and. But they never tell each other. And that's the tragedy of the book.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Let's go to questions in the audience.

[Audience Member]

You mentioned Ike from Razor Blade Tears. He makes a cameo appearance in this book. Do you view all of your books as having, like, a conceptual continuity and, you know, moving forward? Do you think that, you know, you want to tie all your work together in, you know, interesting ways like that?

[S.A. Cosby]

To me, they all exist in the SA Cosby shared universe. So if you read Darkest Prayer. Well, if you read Blacktop Wasteland, then you go back and read Darkest Prayer. People mention a character named Skunk from Darkest Prayer and how bad he is. I like that. I like that people know each other. You know, Bug has a very brief mention in King of Ashes where they're talking about a guy who could drive so good, you know, he'd go backwards through a hairpin. So all these people, you know, it's in Virginia and North Carolina. To me, it wouldn't make sense if they didn't at least be aware of each other. And so, for me, they all exist in that Same place. It's funny you asked that, because my next book is actually a period piece taking place in the 80s, so I'm gonna throw some Easter eggs in there by that, too. So I love that.

[Alison Stewart]

All right.

[Audience Member Anaise]

Hi, my name is Anaise. I've read all your books. I'm, like, really excited to be here and, like, listen to you.

[S.A. Cosby]

So I'm excited to be here, too.

[Audience Member Anaise]

Yes. So I just wanted to know, like, was the lack of. I guess, you know, in our community, right, it's very taboo to go to therapy. And I felt like Nevaeh's character was so triggering for me. Like, this black woman just working, working, working. And then Dante just acting a fool and. And just not actually.

[S.A. Cosby]

But seriously, y' all so hard on Dante, man.

[Audience Member Anaise]

He was my least favorite character. Because I'm like, your older sister's taking on the burden of everything while you're just living this reckless life. And I'm like, they all really needed therapy. And then Roman just left. Yeah, right. And I'm just. So did that influence you at all when you were writing this book? Just, like, the lack of, like, the tabooness, like, why is no one going to therapy or talking to somebody about this?

[S.A. Cosby]

It was intentional. It was intentional that none of them are addressing what's happened to them. And, of course, if you haven't read the book, the thing that really defines them is their mother, when missing when they were teenagers. And so none of them have dealt with it, and they've all dealt with it in really unhealthy ways. You know, Dante is drinking, doing drugs, partying all the time. This ain't a spoiler. Nevaeh dates unavailable men. I'll put it like that. Roman is down partying in Atlanta, but he also. And. And the. The him going to a dominatri is not unhealthy, but the reason he's going is unhealthy. He's not really in touch with himself or why he's doing it. So, yeah, that was intentional. Again, I have a friend, real good friend of mine, named Kelly Garrett, who' amazing writer. And she read this, the early draft of this. She said, you know, if they would just talk to each other and go to therapy. This book be 30 pages, and that was intentional. I really wanted to talk about it because I don't think in our community, we talk. Like you said, there is a taboo about going to therapy. There is a taboo about admitting that you have a psychological component of your part of yourself that you need to deal with. And I really wanted people to take from that, that there's nothing wrong with talking to somebody about how you feel. There's nothing wrong with expressing yourself. There's nothing wrong about dealing with those things that, you know, define us and things that break us in a way. So, yeah, that definitely wasn't intentional.

[Audience Member Anaise]

Hi there.

[Audience Member Kathleen]

I'm Kathleen.

[S.A. Cosby]

Hey.

[Audience Member Kathleen]

I love the character of Jay, Jealousy. And I was wondering if you were to write a sequel focused on her. You know, you kind of leave us with a cliffhanger about where she stands and what her future looks like. Do you give us any bits about what lies ahead for Jay?

[S.A. Cosby]

I love Jay and I love jealousy, and I love the fact that. That she, again, genuinely loves Roman. And Roman loves her in the way that he feels like he can love someone. He cares about her because you read the book, he's keeping stuff from her. And, you know, I think if you. If we were to go back to see them in two or three years, I don't know how happy they would be because I think he would. It would bother. It would eat at him more because he knows what's happened to certain people in her life, and I think it would bother him. And I think she would want to raise this maybe, maybe not child that they may be having with him. And I think there's gonna be. There would be conflict there. But also I like jealousy because I think jealousy is the type of character where she is. She doesn't have any hang ups about who she is. You know, I'm not saying she doesn't need therapy, but she's very comfortable with who she is as a person. And she's the one person in the book that sees Roman for who he really is, you know, and sees him for the broken person he is, but also accepts that and embraces that. So I don't know, maybe we'll. Maybe we will see them in a couple years and see how they're doing. And maybe we'll see how Roman's doing. Maybe we'll see if Roman and Shade are butting heads. So. And we had a question down here.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Yeah, hi.

[Audience Member]

I just wanted to say it was a hell of a book.

[S.A. Cosby]

Oh, thank you.

[Audience Member]

Everything from Caesar. I came, I saw, I conquered, and then Machiavelli. I mean, it was just. It took me places I didn't plan to go, but it was a sweet ride. I wanted to ask you about Dante. I don't know. I experienced him as hugely ungrateful, and I just wanted to get a little bit more about how you crafted that character.

[S.A. Cosby]

I don't know if he's ungrateful, but I definitely think he's unaware of what he's cost his family and what he has and how there are things that he has. He has a life that his father built for him. But of course, if you read the whole book, there's a reason why Dante's so broken, and there's a reason why Roman is the way he is and both brothers sort of took divergent paths to deal with the issue in the book. I just have a lot of sympathy for Dante. I've known a lot of Dantes in my life, you know, and they get on your nerves. They, you know, like, I love my brother, but, like, you know, I can talk about it, but you can't. You know, it's like I can say whatever I want about it. You better not touch say it. We're gonna have a problem. It's gonna be some slow singing and flower bringing and to quote Biggie Smalls. But for me, Dante. Dante's like I said, he's like the fool in King Lear. He's the one character who's being honest, but he's also the character that I love the most. You know, I feel like if there was someone who just. The poor woman says, no, no, but if there was someone who could reach out to him and understand what he's going through and allow him to stop hiding from the pain and allow him to express. He doesn't feel like he can tell his brother how he feels. That conversation between him and Ike, where Ike is like, tell your family how you feel. Because he says to Ike, I know I'm a f up. I know I'm a mess up. I know my family would be better off if I was dead. Nobody wants to feel that way, and nobody wants the person they love to feel that way. He just can't bring himself to have that conversation. And if you read Razor Blake Tears, Ike knows what happens when you don't have that conversation, and he tries to encourage him to do it. So the book would be very different if he was able to convince Dante to go to Roman and say, hey, this is what I'm feeling. This is how I feel. I'm so sorry I got you in this. I'm so sorry all this happened. But they can't do it. And that's the problem. They can't talk to each other. They can't bring themselves to be honest with each other. But, I mean, I get it. You know, Dante gets on your nerves, stuff like that. But I don't know I always have a soft spot for him. He. He's my boy. So.

[Audience Member Samira]

Hi, my name is Samira.

[Interviewer/Panelist]

Hey, nice.

[Audience Member Samira]

Nice to meet you. I'm so glad I got to be here.

[S.A. Cosby]

I'm glad you're here, too.

[Audience Member Samira]

My question is about Roman. We have a moment in the earlier stages of the book where Roman acknowledges that he has been very arrogant while he's getting the consequences of his arrogance, but he doesn't have any further moments of recognizing that. I'm wondering if there's any room in the universe of SA Cosby to see more ripple effects of Roman's arrogance.

[S.A. Cosby]

I think for a man like Roman, the moment you start to acknowledge your arrogance is the moment you lose your strength. Not saying that it's true strength, but for people like Roman, the moment you realize that you're arrogant, that you are, you have hubris, is the moment you start doubting yourself. And for a guy like Roman, he can't doubt himself. The moment he doubts himself is the moment he feels like he loses his edge. Should he acknowledge that? Yeah, probably. That would probably make him a healthier person, but he can't, because that is emitting a weakness that he's not ready to address yet. So I don't know. We. We'll see about how Roman does down the line. So I had a friend that read this book and they told me that. That if they saw Roman as Walter White, and then they. And they saw Shade as his Gus Fring. So I don't know. We'll see.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with author S.A. cosby. His novel King of Ashes was our October get lit with all of it Book club selection.

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