Rebecca Maisels (3:07)

I think that it's really a raw, kind of honest film that gives people space to kind of be themselves. And I think that's something that is still rare in films. And I think that that's some. You know, I think that at the time when Al and David were making it, they were thinking about, you know, that and kind of making a portrait of a relationship. And I think that. So for that, it's just. It's very raw and difficult and wonderful at the same time.

Alison Stewart (3:42)

You grew up around Gray Gardens. When did you first understand what Gray.

WNYC Host (3:47)

Gardens meant to people?

Rebecca Maisels (3:51)

You know, it's funny, someone asked me a question similar to that, you know, like, when did I first know about it? We didn't. It was like, work for my. For my father. So, like. And we didn't have a television, so I'd never really seen it. So I think it was later in my life when people would come up to my father and say, oh, my God, you made Gray Gardens. It changed my life. Or, you know, I had someone like that who was in my family, so I think there was that part. And then he would kind of get invited to fund different Grey Gardens themed events and stuff. So I kind of understood the wider. The broader cultural part of it, through different interactions, that my dad was also a very kind of open public person. So if someone would come up to him on the bus and say something like that to him, he'd have, like, a really nice conversation. So, you know, embarrassingly, as a kid in those type of situations was how I kind of learned that. Yeah, there was a point where I realized he's his own person and I'm my own person. I don't need to be embarrassed about it. But I think in those kind of moments where people would kind of take him aside and say, you know, this was really important to me.

WNYC Host (4:57)

When you watch the film now, what stands out to you that maybe you didn't notice earlier in your life?

Rebecca Maisels (5:04)

Yeah, I hadn't watched it in its full as a film for a long time until pretty recently at the Paris, when we did a big party, the Paris. And as I'm working on a film about my father called Handheld. And to watch it, really, to me, what struck me is it's about relationships. It's about relationships between Edie and her mother. It's about relationships between Al and David, my father and his brother and I. That to me was really, really stuck out that it's just about kind of all different relationships and how they work.

WNYC Host (5:43)

Listeners, we'd like to get you in on this conversation. Grey Gardens has fascinated people for 50 years. Maybe you saw it when it came out or maybe you've heard stories passed down along the way about the duo. Share your memories. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Tell us what the film meant to you. You can also text us at that number. The number is 212-433-969-2212, wnyc. Now, for someone who hasn't seen the film, we have big Edie and we have little Edie. How would you describe each of them?

Rebecca Maisels (6:23)

They are both, well, as Edie would say, staunch characters. They're bold and very smart, I guess, you know, physically in some ways. They're very creative in the way that they dress. So they kind of. Little Edie has these amazing outfits that she's pulled together in a very eccentric way. So there was one. I was, when I went, when I saw this film a few weeks ago, she's having this whole conversation outside and I was like, oh, my God, her headscarf is this amazing towel. And I was like, and it has a beautiful brooch on it. So they're very eccentric in the way that they, they dress. And then they're also. They kind of live in this world of, like, past and present. And so they really talk about their lives, like in all different kind of stages. And they're both very smart. I mean, they're very educated and, you know, they're talking about current politics and previous. They're just both very interesting, different characters. But you can also really tell that they're mother and daughter.

WNYC Host (7:25)

How, how can you tell their mother and daughter?

Rebecca Maisels (7:26)

Well, they fight the way a mother and daughter would fight, but they, and they also love each other the way, you know. You know, I mean, everyone has different relationships with their parents, but I think they really have this in some ways almost it's like a teenage relationship. Like, I think about with, with my mother, how there's this, this moment where there's this push and pull where you want to be close, but you also want your independence. And that happens a lot in the film.

WNYC Host (7:50)

How did your father first get introduced to them?

Rebecca Maisels (7:54)

Al and David? They were introduced by. They were supposed to do a project supported by Jackie Onassis about her life. And they started working on that, and it just didn't work. It just didn't work out. And in the process, they met the Beals. They met Edie, Little Edie and Big Edie. And when they met them, they were like, well, this is really where the film is. And so that's how they met them. But it was through another project that didn't end up happening. And then they were like, well, you know, can we make a film about you? And they said, yes.

Alison Stewart (8:26)

They seem like natural performers.

Rebecca Maisels (8:28)

Yeah.

Alison Stewart (8:28)

Were they happy to have the crew around?

Rebecca Maisels (8:31)

Well, the crew was just two people. So I think that that made it, you know, really much easier for them, I was taught. So at the documentary center, we have two different discussions. One is with Muffy Meyer and Susan Fromke. And Muffy was an editor and a co director, and Susan also an awesome associate producer. We were talking about it, and they were saying, you know, we never went into the house. We never. I mean, they became friends with them after and after the edit, after the film was in, but they never entered the house. And so it was really only Al and David that really entered the house.

Alison Stewart (9:06)

Do you think they were playing for a camera or were they just being themselves?

Rebecca Maisels (9:11)

I think it's both. I mean, you know, I was also. When I was watching the film, I was thinking about kind of like, testifying and what it means to testify. And I feel like there's a lot of these moments in the film where they're testifying. And I think that. So there's moments where they're playing to the camera, they're playing to each other. They're flirting with Al, they're flirting with David. So it's all, like, playing in lots of different ways.

Alison Stewart (9:37)

This text we got has a question for you. It says, what does your guest think of Drew Barrymore's drama dramatization?

Rebecca Maisels (9:46)

I mean, I think that they. I think it's interesting that it becomes a fiction film. I think that sometimes, you know, I think that in the film, people had kind of ideas of what maybe they thought it would be or what it. You know, But I. You know, I think all publicity is good publicity. And I think it's interesting when people have interpretations of it. And then I also think it always brings you back to the original. So I think that they really tried hard and they did a lot of research. And I think that it was. It was. It was interesting in that way.

WNYC Host (10:18)

My guest is Rebecca Maisels, artist and daughter of filmmaker Albert Maisels. We're Talking about the 50th anniversary of Gray Gardens, the landmark documentary about Big and little Edie Bouvier Beal. And there's special screenings happening this Sunday at the Maisel's Documentary center in Harlem. Listeners, what did Gray Gardens mean to you? When did you first see it? What was spectacular about the film that you still, that you still share in your memories? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. You can send us a text or call in and talk to us on the air. 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. So the Bouvier women, Big Eden, Little Edie, they were array. They were sort of raised with quite.

Alison Stewart (11:06)

A bit of privilege, right?

WNYC Host (11:08)

But they had limited power. Big Edie had to live within the rules of the family. What do their stories reveal about women in that social class during that period?

Rebecca Maisels (11:23)

Well, I think, I think it was really difficult at that time. And I think that in some ways, you know, the film is in some ways, like kind of after the fact. It's when they reacted to those different things happening in their life and when little Edie was really trying to make it in big society and it worked and didn't work. And so I think that the film is really almost a kind of reflection of that. And in some ways, them saying, you know what, like, we tried it and I think this works better for us to be together. And, you know, there are good things and bad things about it. But I think that the film is kind of almost more like a reflection of how that worked and how it didn't work.

WNYC Host (12:04)

Let's talk to Harold who's calling in from Midtown. Hi, Harold, thank you so much for making the time to call all of it.

Harold (Caller) (12:12)

Sure, thanks. Interesting topic. I happen to be around in East Hampton in those years. I'm a native New Yorker. We were very excited. There was buzz all around, mainly because we had heard Lee Raswell and Peter Beard were doing this project with her aunt. Second thing is, shortly after the film Small Edie Young edie appeared on 13th street at a beloved New York venue called Reno Sweeney's off University Place. And she performed and it was packed and it was mind blowing. Does your guest have any memory of any of those to topics?

Rebecca Maisels (13:09)

Yes. Well, I don't have memory because I was not even born. Well, I was born right after the film was finished. But yes, the first project that was supposed to be called was called Sisters that was done was going to be done with Peter Beard and that's the project that didn't end up happen. Didn't work out.

Sponsor Announcer (13:28)

Right.

Rebecca Maisels (13:28)

So, yes. And then the Reno Sweeney, you know, at the documentary center in for quite a few Junes for Gay Pride, we would do a big celebration of Gray Gardens. And if I. My memory's pretty bad, but we met one of the photographers who took pictures of little Edie when she did her kind of cabaret show at Reno Sweeney. And he was delightful. And I know that I've talked to some people who went to see the show. Did you see the show?

WNYC Host (13:59)

I don't think he's still.

Rebecca Maisels (14:00)

Oh, okay. Anyway, who went to see the show and they said it was like she was really in her element.

WNYC Host (14:05)

We've got a call from Deanna from Queens. Hi, Deanna, thanks for calling.

Deanna (Caller) (14:13)

Hi. I just wanted to call because I used to teach at Maisel's documentary Center. I think like 10 years ago we used to do the Teen Producers program. So we used to teach documentary production to teenagers up in Harlem. And I just wanted to highlight some of that work that Maisel's is still doing is just carrying on the power of documentary filmmaker to young low income kids of color and really changing lives. Like I. We've been. Some of our kids productions made it to Tribeca Film Festival and I remember one of the kids did a film because he had wanted to talk to his estranged father and had wanted basically to just ask his father like why, why did you leave? And he was able to do that through this film that made it to like the Tribeca. I think it was like the youth voices, I forget what it was, but the young people's program at Tribeca and him at the end of the semester just commenting like how much it had changed his life and how healing it had been. And that was all within Maisel's documentary center. So I just, you know, every time I hear the name Maisels, I get like a little warm because it was just like fond as an arts educator. It was a good experience and also just the power of filmmaking and of documentary filmmaking that is still going on. So I just wanted to highlight that and give you all props because I know Kazembe, who I used to organize with as like a little 20 year old, is the director of Maisels now. So yeah, I just wanted to highlight that.

Rebecca Maisels (15:41)

Thank you. You did such a better job than I could ever do talking about the amazing work of educational programming. So thank you and thanks so much. It's really nice to hear Your voice.

Sponsor Announcer (15:51)

Yeah.

WNYC Host (15:51)

Your father and your uncle, they really helped pioneer direct cinema. What did that approach mean to them at the time?

Rebecca Maisels (15:59)

I think at the time it meant to kind of veer away from kind of a more traditional idea of a documentary which would be narration and kind of, you know, a plan and this. They would kind of. The way that they approached their. I would guess their subjects would be to kind of let them be who they were and see where it went. And so even with, you know, with Grey Gardens, for example, if you talk to like Muffy, you know, they. When the film, when the filming was finished, then it's kind of the whole other stage of then figuring out how the story comes together because it's done in a. It's done in a. Just a. Not really a linear way. It's just. This is. Here's the footage. This is how, you know, what we experienced and then figure out how to translate that into a story.

WNYC Host (16:44)

Let's talk to Kristen from Brooklyn. Hey, Kristen, thank you so much for calling all of it.

Kristen (Caller) (16:51)

Hi, Alison, thanks for having me on. So it's my first time seeing Gray Gardens. Just like a couple months ago, my friends had me over for like a screening. It's the 50th anniversary. They're excited. And while I thought it was interesting, there are these great one liners and I can see why people are sort of drawn to the film. I also thought of it as a little sad. And I just, you know, thought maybe the, the. The viewer. I was taking on this like a voyeuristic perspective and watching two women who needed some support, maybe they were experiencing some mental illness. And so I just thought that it was both of those things and much more. But those two things came up for me.

Alison Stewart (17:34)

Thank you so much for calling in. Did the film ever make you feel sad?

Rebecca Maisels (17:37)

Oh, definitely. I mean, I think that, that. I think in some ways that is why it's really maintained its strength over time is that it has these glorious moments and these really difficult, raw, sad moments. And that's what. Cause it makes it so human. So, yeah, there are definitely moments that are very sad. And then also something sad will happen and then something really funny will happen at the same time.

Alison Stewart (18:00)

And it was also filmed at a time before people thought that way, like, oh, this person might need help. They're like, oh, these odd. Oddballs out on East Hampton. Instead of thinking like, well, maybe. Why are they oddballs? You know, the house itself is a character in the movie.

Rebecca Maisels (18:19)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (18:19)

How do you describe the house to people?

Rebecca Maisels (18:22)

Well, the house is a large falling apart mansion that they share the house with multiple cats and raccoons. And it's a beautiful kind of old Victorian mansion. And it has, there's one moment where the camera kind of pans out and you see like their house compared to the other houses on left and the right. And their house has vines and it's overgrown. And, you know, it's kind of a beautiful house that's really falling apart.

Alison Stewart (18:56)

Did the members of the Bouvier, the Beale family, publicly or privately respond to the film when it first came out?

Rebecca Maisels (19:04)

That is a really good question. I don't know. I'm not sure. That would be, unfortunately, a question. I mean, I don't, you know, maybe Muffy or Susan would know, but I don't know.

Alison Stewart (19:13)

And they did the editing of the film.

Rebecca Maisels (19:14)

Yeah.

Alison Stewart (19:15)

Let's talk to John on from Emerson, New Jersey. Hey, John, thanks for calling all of it.

John (Caller) (19:21)

Hi, thanks for having me. I have, I have a question, but first I have to say it's such an iconic film. I can remember seeing it in the 70s with my parents on PBS. And that was the type of thing that whenever PBS would rebroadcast it, we get locked into watching it again. And later in life too, when I was married, I'd say to my wife, you have to watch this. But of course I have to ask, have you seen the documentary now, Sandy Passages spoof? And what did you think of that?

WNYC Host (19:46)

That's with. Is that with Fred Armiston?

Rebecca Maisels (19:48)

Yeah. I mean, I thought it was, you know, I thought it was funny. But then there's always this moment where things just go like a little like I. Things go like a little too crazy. So I thought it was funny. I mean, they're big fans, so that's kind of nice. And I like that there were certain things that they really got spot on, which I thought was great, you know, but then like any kind of spoof, it goes a little bit.

Alison Stewart (20:12)

My guest is Rebecca Maisels.

WNYC Host (20:13)

We're Talking about the 50th anniversary of Gray Gardens. There's going to be screenings this Sunday at the Maisels Documentary Center.

Alison Stewart (20:20)

And you're introducing one of the films.

Rebecca Maisels (20:23)

Yes. And. Oh. So there's three screenings at the 2 o' clock screening afterwards. We're doing Q and A with myself and Jerry Torrey, the marble faun who is now pretty established sculptor. And then the 4:30 screening, we're doing a post Q and A with Susan Frofke and Muffie Meyer.

WNYC Host (20:43)

You ended up working with your dad.

Alison Stewart (20:45)

In 2014 on a film.

WNYC Host (20:47)

Will you tell us a little about.

Alison Stewart (20:48)

What it was like to work with your dad?

Rebecca Maisels (20:51)

Yeah, sure. I worked with my dad on and off for, I guess, like the last 20 years. But he had been working on a film called Iris, about Iris Atfil, and they had already been working on it for a few years. And so I kind of helped towards the end of the film doing some shoots and then also helping like with supervising, editing and finishing of the film. It was great. And it was really fun to watch the way that he worked. And I think one of the things that's really difficult when you're filming people or even like interviewing people is to be able to just be quiet and let them speak and let them have the space. And it was pretty amazing to watch him just be quiet and just let things, you know, it's not an easy skill. And sometimes you watch films and then all of a sudden you hear like, the camera person can't wait. And so then they have to, you know. But he was very, very patient. And I've been thinking about that a lot as, you know, thinking about the way that he worked as a cameraman.

WNYC Host (21:49)

What drove him to keep making films for that long.

Rebecca Maisels (21:55)

I think he really enjoyed it. He really liked filming, he liked being behind the camera, he liked meeting new people. He was very, very active. I mean, he made two films in the last year of his life and I think it gave him a lot of pleasure. And I think that he could just kind of disappear and just like listen to other people. And I think that that was really nice for him. You know, he didn't become a like start in film until his 30s. So, you know, and there he wasn't like a trained filmmaker in that way. So I think it satisfied this way of him kind of learning about people and understanding more about people. And he really enjoyed his work. I mean, he was filming all the time.

WNYC Host (22:41)

When you think about the work that he did, from Iris Apfeld to Greg Gardens to. I think there was like a Soviet psychiatry documentary.

Rebecca Maisels (22:50)

Yeah. In Russia.

Deanna (Caller) (22:51)

Right.

WNYC Host (22:53)

When you look across that range of subjects, were there threads connecting those films?

Rebecca Maisels (22:59)

Yes, definitely. I mean, I think first of all, like most of the. The well known films are the films that he and his brother made together. And I think, I think about that and I think that for them there were lots of threads. When they would see films, they would see people that were important, that kind of represented different parts of their lives. So there definitely is a thread. And I think, you know, they really felt that film had this ability to kind of record people for who they were and to understand people maybe to give you understanding of someone that you might not be able to have a glimpse into people like that. And so they together. And then later, you know, because my uncle died in the 80s later, that kind of idea behind the camera just continued.

Alison Stewart (23:44)

The Library of Congress selected Gray Gardens for preservation, deeming it, quote, culturally, historically and aesthetically significant. It was added to the national film registry in 2010. What did that recognition mean to you and your family?

Rebecca Maisels (23:58)

I think it's amazing. I mean, I think. I think it's wonderful. And if you think of environment now, anyway, I think it's really amazing. And I think it's wonderful to have it a part of the history of American cinema and American history too.

Alison Stewart (24:13)

Why do you think it's having such a surge in 2025 you had Kola Scola's New York magazine cover and Julia Fox picking it from the Criterion channel closet. What is it about 2025?

Rebecca Maisels (24:25)

I mean, I think it's. I think people want like, I think it's timeless. And people want things that are raw and true and honest and witty and rebellious. I mean, I think that never dies. And so it'll probably pick up in 2025 and it'll pick up in a few years. I mean, I think that's. That part of it is kind of timeless.

Alison Stewart (24:43)

My guest has been Rebecca Maisels, artist and daughter of the filmmaker Albert Meisels. We were Talking about the 50th anniversary of Gray Gardens. There will be this Sunday at the Maysles Documentary center in Harlem. Thank you for coming into the studio.

Rebecca Maisels (25:00)

Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart (25:01)

Up next, I'll speak with the latest Booker Prize winner. He won the prestigious award for his new novel Flesh.

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Alison Stewart (25:45)

Diego.

Rebecca Maisels (25:45)

Black Friday at the Home Depot. Not a pierda's black Friday and the home depot.