Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart, WNYC
Episode Title: 'Happiness & Love,' A Debut Novel About NYC's Culture Machine
Guest: Zoe Dubno, novelist
Air Date: September 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Alison Stewart speaks with debut novelist Zoe Dubno about her new book Happiness and Love, a sharp, satirical look at New York City’s contemporary creative class. Set over the course of one fraught evening on Manhattan’s Lower East Side, the novel deconstructs the pretenses and cruelties of a group of self-absorbed artists, writers, and scene-makers. Stewart and Dubno discuss literary influences, character psychology, the art world’s toxicity, and how Dubno’s experiences in both New York and London shaped this highly NYC-centric story.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inspiration and Literary Structure

• Dubno drew from Austrian writer Thomas Bernhard’s novel Woodcutters for Happiness and Love’s distinct structure: the entire novel is written in a single paragraph.
  • “What really spoke to me about Thomas Bernhard’s novel was this one paragraph form ... I kind of just loved that it let you go so easily … you could contain all of these different things in just this one paragraph.” —Zoe Dubno (01:30)
  • The form allowed Dubno to write fluidly and impulsively, but made editing a challenge: “While I was writing, it was kind of amazing ... I can just keep writing. And I noticed this and now I write about...” —Zoe Dubno (03:08)

2. Protagonist: A Nameless Narrator

• The unnamed protagonist is a youngish woman, a writer who returns to NYC from London for a friend’s funeral, feeling alienated by her old circle.
  • “She is a writer, but she might not really be as celebrated as she would like ... she’s discovered that this world ... just aren’t there ... the narrator is a bit of a kind of sad person.” —Zoe Dubno (03:45)
• Dubno wanted readers to see themselves in the protagonist:
  • “I didn’t want to close off anything for anybody by giving too much about the narrator ... I wanted her to feel ... like you could step into her shoes and feel those feelings.” —Zoe Dubno (06:29)

3. Personal Parallels

• Dubno relates to her protagonist’s ambivalence about New York and its culture scene:
  • “I think I did let New York kind of become this very small, small world full of yucky stuff. And now I’m like, oh, no, it’s great. I walk around. I love everybody.” —Zoe Dubno (05:31)

4. Core Characters: Satire of the Art World

• The dinner party gathers complicated figures from her protagonist’s past:
  • Eugene: “Son of a very famous artist ... trying to usurp his father ... an artist, but ... more commercial ... he’s a little bit of a creep.” —Zoe Dubno (08:21)
  • Nicole: “Curator who curates these sort of big exhibitions ... she’s the one who has the real money ... can’t really be sure if they like her or they like her for their money.” —Zoe Dubno (08:51)
  • Alexander: “Another writer who is more successful than the narrator ... he took advantage of her ... but also, he nurtured her talent ... a little bit of a weird thing going on.” —Zoe Dubno (09:46)

5. Grief, Belonging, and Betrayal

• The funeral at the story’s center is for Rebecca, someone who validated the narrator’s artistic ambitions and was similarly exploited by the group.
  • “Losing Rebecca … they haven’t seen Rebecca in a while, but it feels like they’ve lost a co conspirator ... kind of mourning for a future.” —Zoe Dubno (07:16)

6. On Cruelty and the Seduction of the ‘In-Crowd’

• Dubno reads a pivotal excerpt (10:21–13:58) exploring the narrator’s self-disgust at how fitting in led to cruelty:
  • “They had enticed me with the promise of an artistic community ... I had believed them ... I became known as a judgmental person. I was cruel to people ... being cruel is easy. It is fun, it is seductive, especially if you enjoy conversation and have a quick tongue, which I do.”

7. Setting Details and Symbolism

• The protagonist sits at the edge of a white sofa—a deliberate homage to Bernhard’s wing chair, adapted for NYC:
  • “In Vienna, sure, they might have a wing back chair, but in a New York, nice loft apartment, they’re gonna have a Restoration Hardware white sofa.” —Zoe Dubno (14:09)

8. What Is Art? What Is Entertainment?

• The novel debates the boundaries between high art and mass entertainment, through an actress guest at the party.
  • “There is a certain class of people that see very high art as something that’s inaccessible ... novels are, you know, mass entertainment. … Reading is great. Watching movies is great. It’s just great.” —Zoe Dubno (15:20)

9. Life Imitating Art—Grief and Social Performance

• Stewart and Dubno reflect on the oddness of art-world socializing in the shadow of a funeral:
  • "There's something really bizarre that happens where people are trying to both exaggerate their closeness to the dead person, but also try to have a nice time afterwards." —Zoe Dubno (16:35)

10. NYC in Literature: Dubno’s Influences

• Dubno lists favorite New York novels: Edith Wharton’s The Custom of the Country, American Psycho, and The Catcher in the Rye.
  • “Somebody called my book Holden Caulfieldish, and I took that as a huge compliment.” —Zoe Dubno (17:19)

11. Writing Process

• Happiness and Love was written with a pragmatic routine: 1,000 words a day, or else.
  • “My schedule for this was really— I have to write 1,000 words today. That’s like, it has to happen or else ... you could be finished with a book in a month and a half.” —Zoe Dubno (18:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Influence:
  “The Bernhard heads will come for me, and he's Austrian, not German.” —Zoe Dubno (01:24)
• On Social Cruelty:
  “Because being cruel is easy. It is fun, it is seductive, especially if you enjoy conversation and have a quick tongue, which I do.” —Zoe Dubno, reading from novel (12:43)
• On the New York Art World:
  "They're yucky. They're yucky stuff." —Zoe Dubno (16:35)
• On Fiction and Accessibility:
  “Reading is great. Watching movies is great. It's just great. Like, I think that is part of what I wanted to say.” —Zoe Dubno (15:20)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book’s Inspiration and Structure – 01:06–03:43
• Protagonist Introduction – 03:43–04:35
• Personal Reflections on NYC – 05:24–06:02
• Choosing Not to Name the Protagonist – 06:02–06:55
• Rebecca’s Role & Funeral – 06:55–08:11
• Character Sketches (Eugene, Nicole, Alexander) – 08:11–10:17
• Author Reading / On Becoming Judgmental – 10:21–13:58
• Sofa Symbolism – 14:09–14:49
• On Art vs. Entertainment – 14:52–16:20
• Social Politics after Death – 16:20–17:09
• Favorite NYC Books & Comparisons – 17:09–18:08
• Writing Process Explanation – 18:25–19:34

Tone & Atmosphere

• The conversation is wry, self-aware, a bit biting—but also deeply affectionate toward both literature and New York’s cultural scene.
• Dubno is frank about her own complicity in the snobbery she skewers, making for moments of both sharp critique and earnest self-examination.

For Listeners

This episode offers a lively, literary dive into the narcissism, glamour, and casual cruelty of NYC’s creative class, as framed through Zoe Dubno’s satirical debut. It’s both a love letter and a roast—a perceptive social novel for New Yorkers, culture fans, and anyone who’s ever wondered what goes on at those “everyone’s-too-cool” downtown dinners.