A (3:04)

I was gonna ask you, what did it do for you?

B (3:08)

Writing it and editing it were two very different things. Cause when you're editing a novel and you say, somewhere on paragraph one, you know, we need to move that thing. So that was harder. But while I was writing, it was kind of amazing because, you know, I've written short stories and I've written other things, and you're kind of playing with the dialogue and you're playing with where things go. But this, I was just, oh, my God, I can just keep writing. And I noticed this and now I write about. And it really flowed out of me quite quickly, this novel, I think maybe because of the Bernhardi and rant one paragraph thing.

A (3:43)

Who is the protagonist of your novel?

B (3:45)

So the protagonist of the novel is a youngish woman who does not have a name, and she's ditched all of these old friends of hers, but accidentally finds herself back with all of them. And. And, you know, she is a writer, but she might not really be as celebrated as she would like, but she's somebody who's very, very engaged in art and in culture. And I think has a little bit of a sadness to her because she has discovered that this world that she wanted so much to be a part of, and the kind of ideas that she thought would be there just aren't there. So I think that the novel, the novel, the narrator is a bit of a kind of sad person.

A (4:35)

So she went to London. Was she escaping New York or the people who made up the downtown scene she was part of? Or was this supposed to be a great plan?

B (4:43)

When she first went to London, I think for her, she had just had enough of the New York people. And then New York can be a very small world. I mean, New York is huge, but New York, in a certain cultural context, you're going to run into some people everywhere you go at a screening, at a. Anything that you want to go to, you can't anymore. So I think she just up and left. And part of this book, it's also, you know, I'm from New York. I Love. New York is about how you can allow certain things to be poisoned that you love until you kind of realize, actually, it's just me. It's me that's letting this be poisoned. I like it here. I like it.

A (5:24)

Well, you went to London, and then you came back. Did you have any. Any sort of the same reaction as your protagonist to the city?

B (5:31)

I think that I did have a sort of similar reaction to the protagonist. And I'm, you know, maybe it's the Zoron effect. You know, I love Zoron. And, like, I kind of do think that the city is kind of back in a really nice way from a. From a. For me. For me. Like, I think I did let New York kind of become this very small, small world full of yucky stuff. And now I'm like, oh, no, it's great. I walk around. I love everybody.

A (6:02)

Why did you decide not to name your protagonist?

B (6:05)

I think because I wanted. I mean, it's funny because the COVID of my book is very clearly a woman. But I did want the. The thing that I loved about the Thomas Bernhard novels. Cause all of his novels are kind of himself as the narrator. And it's unnamed, but it's a sort of Thomas Bernhard unnamed thing. I love that. While I was reading it, I thought that he was a woman at first.

A (6:29)

Oh, interesting.

B (6:29)

You know, and I just thought, like, because he doesn't say, you know, my name, whatever, even though I'm just thinking, oh, this is me. You know, when you're reading the best books, you're just like, you're not like, this is me, but you're like, I'm the main character perspective. So I didn't want to close off anything for anybody by giving too much about the narrator. I wanted her to feel kind of like you could step into her shoes and feel those feelings. That was really the main reason.

A (6:55)

My guest is author Zoe Dubno. We're talking about her book Happiness and Love. So the narrator, we learned she got a little view is a problem. But she does come back to the States for this funeral. It's this woman, Rebecca. What did Rebecca mean to the narrator? What was it about Rebecca's death that made her want to return?

B (7:16)

I think the Rebecca character was the first person to really take the narrator seriously as a. And the narrator also took Rebecca seriously as an artist. And the two of them were both. I mean, so the book takes place at the house of these two characters that both really used and abused Rebecca and the narrator. And I think they bonded over this kind of feeling. Of being used, but also this feeling of using the central couple. You know, using their nice houses, using their nice food, using their. And so the narrator, in Losing Rebecca, you know, they haven't seen Rebecca in a while, but it feels like they've lost a co conspirator. And they also kind of were always hoping for big things from Rebecca. And now that she's really gone, those things can't come to fruition. So it's kind of mourning for a future.

A (8:11)

All these people have gathered for dinner. And they used to be in the narrator's world. I'm gonna ask you to briefly describe Eugene for me.

B (8:21)

So Euge, the son of a very famous artist who Eugene kind of has this interesting relationship with, trying to usurp his father, but also be his own thing. And it kind of tortures him. And he is an artist, but he's kind of more of a commercial artist. Where his work is very much for sale or for, you know, advertising. And he's very, very successful. And he's a little bit of a creep.

A (8:50)

All right, Nicole.

B (8:51)

Nicole is his partner, and she is a curator who curates these sort of big exhibitions that might not have a whole lot of substance to them. And she's the one who has the real money and therefore has this really tricky relationship with her friends where she can't really be sure if they like her or they like her for their money. And she ends up kind of pushing everybody away because of that.

A (9:17)

In your mind, what kind of fight do Eugene and Nicole have? Could be in the book. You can make it up. What kind of fight would they have?

B (9:23)

I mean, I think that the fight that they would have is really about that money issue. Because Eugene, by being her husband, is the number one recipient of her largess. And also then the number one recipient of her skepticism that she's really good for him for reasons beyond the money. So I think that the fights really center around that.

A (9:44)

And Alexander.

B (9:46)

Alexander is, I think, the character that the narrator feels the most ambivalent about. Because Alexander is another writer who is more successful than the narrator. And she's certainly jealous of him. But also, he took advantage of her in certain ways. And so she feels a little bit of hatred towards him. But then also, he nurtured her talent and he encouraged her up to a point. So Alexander and the narrator have a little bit of a weird thing going on.

A (10:17)

I'm gonna ask you to read a little bit from the book. Set this up for us.

B (10:21)

Okay. So the part that I wanted to read is about how the narrator actually has this kind of moment of. A lot of the talk about the book has been about the art world. But I think that my grandfather actually said this to me, that he recognizes these emotions towards these people from, you know, when he was a lawyer in the 1970s and interacting with that were more successful or whatever than you. Gotcha. So this is a piece about the narrator is realizing that these people allowed her to change. And that she doesn't recognize herself because of what these people did to her. So this is Zoe Dubno reading from paragraph one. I don't mean to fetishize living in the moment, but it seemed to me like Eugene, Nicole, the actress, were all living to prove that they had lived. And this most of all, more than their unlived in houses and their unread books and their unused minds, was why I despised Eugene and Nicole and these idiots I'd managed to take a vacation from until tonight. Because they had enticed me with the promise of an artistic community. And made me believe when I was 19 that their world was a wonderful place where people exchanged ideas and created things together for a public, for each other with a purpose. I had believed them. And I thought that when they were cruel to others, it was for the greater benefit of the high ideal that was art. When they excluded someone purposefully from a dinner party, when they laughed in someone's face, when they made a display of hating their art. Like the time Nicole got so drunk at an opening she told the painter's husband, pretending not to know who he was, that the show is absolute bourgeois garbage. They made me believe that these cruelties were necessary to uphold the sanctity of something greater, of art. And because I am of weak will and of a simpering character, I allowed myself to be influenced by them. I became known as a judgmental person. I was cruel to people. And though I was often a good judge of who deserved poor treatment, I also behaved badly towards people that were simply weaker than I was otherwise benign. People who lacked the mental faculties to produce good work, to produce good conversation. Because being cruel is easy. It is fun, it is seductive, especially if you enjoy conversation and have a quick tongue, which I do. I always know just what to say to give someone a dressing down. And I loved it when Nicole laughed when I said the right thing, disarming someone she hated, even if they probably didn't deserve cruel treatment. Because I'm a total weakling, lacking in character. And so I could never forgive Nicole and Eugene. Because I could never forgive myself for abandoning myself for making myself believe that I was not the tender and soft girl who had sewn bunny rabbit dolls from socks for my third grade teacher, who had sung along to folk songs about plants and freedom and labor organizing in the car with my grandfather, but instead that I was a vicious attack dog. I'd let them harness my intelligence and my quick wit as a weapon. I'd led myself to believe that I had to choose between the didactic and humorless world of politics and the soulless and cruel world of art. And it made me feel completely sick to know that I'd once thought I had finally found people from whom I could learn something about art. And I started laughing to myself in my seat on the corner of the sofa, laughing hard to myself out loud, repeating, learn something about art. Out loud to myself at first under my breath, but then loud enough for the people around to hear me as I repeated, learn something about art. And I saw them all look at me, confused by what I was saying to myself, by the unseemly display I was making there on the sofa.

A (13:58)

That is Zoe Dubno reading from her novel Happiness and Love. I notice she's sitting on the edge of a white sofa. Was that a choice?

B (14:09)

That was a choice. So, like in the Woodcutters, which my book is an homage to, he's sitting in this famous wing chair, and he repeats it way more times than in my. I mean, people are, like, mad at me that I'm saying on the sofa so much, they should read the Woodcutters. She's really on that wing chair. And I thought, what is. You know, in Vienna, sure, they might have a wing back chair, but in a New York, nice loft apartment, they're gonna have a Restoration Hardware white sofa. So that's where she's gonna be.

A (14:37)

It's sort of interesting, though. I can see her sitting on the arm of the chair. Not quite on the couch, though, like, on the edge. Like, I don't really want to be.

B (14:49)

A part of it anymore. Exactly. I'm not really here.

A (14:52)

Right. It's interesting. In the book, they're sort of waiting for this actress to arrive, and she stirs things up a bit. I don't want to give too much away, but there's this big discussion about who makes art, what is art, Entertainment and art. Was there a moment that led you to this conversation with yourself when you thought, like, I want to tackle what is art? What is entertainment? And do they even mix?

B (15:20)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if there was a specific moment, but I think it's Just my whole life, like, there is a certain class of people that see, you know, very high art as something that's inaccessible or even stuff that is, like, quite accessible. Like, I think that, like, novels are, you know, mass entertainment. They're super fun to read, and it makes people not want to read great works of literature because we act like they're super hard to understand when actually it's just like the most fun that you can basically have is to read a great work of fiction. So I think that it was something important to me to have the actress be a Hollywood actress who's saying, how come you guys have let us in Hollywood define what having a nice creative experience is and say that this is locked away for the super intellectual people in some kind of high tower. Reading is great. Watching movies is great. It's just great. Like, I think that is part of what I wanted to say.

A (16:20)

And it's so interesting that all of this is happening after a funeral.

B (16:24)

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

A (16:25)

They're all having these conversations after the funeral of this woman.

B (16:31)

Yeah.

A (16:32)

What does that say about the people at this party?

B (16:35)

They're yucky. They're yucky stuff. I mean, I think, like, if. I don't know, I hope that nobody has had the experience of having somebody that's close to them or medium close to them pass away too young. But there's something really bizarre that happens where people are trying to both exaggerate their closeness to the dead person, but also try to have a nice time afterwards. And it's like, that's part of what I wanted to get at because I've witnessed that, unfortunately. And it's really bizarre. It's really bizarre. So that. Yeah, that's part of it.

A (17:09)

This is really a New York centric book. If you live in New York, I think you get an extra level of excitement from the book.

B (17:16)

Yeah.

A (17:17)

What are some of your favorite New York centric books?

B (17:19)

Oh, God, my favorite New York centric books. I was just thinking about the Custom of the country by Edith Wharton, which is like the best story about a New York City transplant. Like, people are always talking about transplants, but that woman, she comes, she conquers New York City, she really does it. What else? I love American Psycho. Oh, I don't know. I love. So, I mean, somebody called my book Holden Caulfieldish, and I took that as a huge compliment because I love the Catcher in the Rye. Yeah.

A (17:56)

Yeah. What have you seen as similarities between your books and the books that they've mentioned? They've mentioned Bright Lights, Big City, a Whole bunch of different books. Which ones really make sense to you?

B (18:08)

I don't know. It's always. I mean, that's the nice thing about criticism in critics is that they open up an unbelievable other layer of your book that you didn't know about. And so I really do like being compared to all these things that I didn't think about. So I don't know if there's a specific one.

A (18:25)

What was your writing schedule like for this book? I'm curious, considering. One giant paragraph.

B (18:29)

Yeah. One giant paragraph. Well, the one giant paragraph is kind of nice because I think that, for me, at least, when you're writing a book, you want to, like, live in the book and you just want to be really thinking about the world of the book and the characters and what they're doing. So just to start, I'm like. And I'm back in the paragraph. So that was great. My schedule for this was really. I have to write 1,000 words today. That's like, it has to happen or else. And when you think about it that way, most novels are like 50 to 100,000 words. Like, so if you think I'm going to write a thousand words, you could be finished with a book in a month and a half.

A (19:06)

But I don't know what orels is.

B (19:08)

Well, there's. You can't actually begin to think of the or else, right? Because the or else. If you think of the or else, then actually you can handle that, like, fine. Okay, I can go without, you know, ice cream, whatever it is, but. Or else. You don't want to know what the or else is. Or else. Or else. Or else. So. So that is what I did. I did. I did my. A thousand words or else. And you just, you know, truck through that old paragraph.

A (19:34)

The name of the book is Happiness and Love. It is by Zoe Dubno. Her event Tonight at Jackson McNally is sold out at the Seaport, but she will be at Barnes and Noble on the Upper west side on Thursday, September 11th. Congratulations on the novel.

B (19:49)

Thank you so much.

A (19:50)

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.

B (20:04)

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