All Of It – Harris Dickinson & Frank Dillane Talk 'Urchin'

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Harris Dickinson (Writer/Director/Actor), Frank Dillane (Actor)
Date: December 31, 2025
Film Discussed: Urchin

Episode Overview

In this episode, Alison Stewart hosts filmmaker Harris Dickinson and actor Frank Dillane to discuss Urchin, Dickinson’s directorial debut that follows Mike, a young man navigating homelessness and addiction in London. Drawing widespread acclaim, including an award for Dillane at Cannes, the film explores the cyclical nature of marginalization with empathy and realism. The conversation covers the film's development, its realism, the process of portraying vulnerable characters, and both guests’ personal and creative journeys in realizing this vivid story.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Genesis and Development of Urchin

• Long Development Process
  • Harris Dickinson shared that the story of Mike was in development for around six years.
  • “It's been around six years of developing it at the moment we started writing it [...]. Yeah, around six years.” (01:37)
• Evolving the Narrative
  • The film has always centered on someone "falling between the cracks," but was refined with significant input from organizations and individuals impacted by homelessness and the criminal justice system.
  • “We worked closely with various different organizations and advisors and fields in prison reform and probation and had a lot of people weigh in on it and interrogate the material.” (01:47)
• Collaboration with Frank Dillane
  • Frank joined about eight or nine months pre-shoot, collaborating closely with Dickinson to shape the role.

Portraying Addiction, Homelessness, and Human Dignity

• Complexity, Not Blame
  • Dickinson emphasized that the film does not assign blame but seeks to reveal the challenges of re-assimilation post-incarceration and after losing support systems.
  • “We're not blaming the people that work in those fields. There's phenomenal work being done... But it was trying to present a full picture of someone trying to reassimilate and how difficult that is...” (03:33)
• Individuality of Experience
  • Dillane stressed the diverse, complex reasons behind homelessness—often stemming from trauma or mundane misfortunes—and rejected the notion of a “generic homeless person.”
  • “There is no generic homeless person. You know, it's all of us. We. We could all find ourselves in. In that position, believe it or not.” (04:51)
• Balance: Authenticity without Sanitization
  • Both sought to show Mike’s struggles authentically—avoiding both sanitizing his life and unjustly victimizing or heroizing him. Humor and levity, they agreed, are important.
  • “It was important also to not victimize Mike too much [...]. So it was showing the truth of it, trying to depict it accurately, but allowing humor as well and allowing levity into a story like this...” (06:17)
  • “When someone has been to the brink of their own experience... they're often the most exuberant, funny people...” (06:37)

Building Character: Actor-Director Collaboration

• Actor’s Director

  • Dillane valued Dickinson’s experience as an actor, noting it helped create a supportive, collaborative environment.
  • “It was just like having this extra support network... Harris is an actor's director, which I think is a rare. A rare. Becoming a rarer thing [...] He certainly pushed me in ways that I've not been pushed before...” (07:45)

• Costume Symbolism

  • Dickinson joked about how choosing Mike’s jacket was a tough, meaningful decision.
  • On a memorable scene in a thrift store (10:25):
    • Frank explained, “The story that we wanted to tell in that moment was. Was one of. Of again, dignity and feeling good about Yourself, you know, feeling, feeling proud of yourself. Having a bit of money, having a bit of money to spend on, on something you like, which when you don't have any money and if you haven't had any money for a long time, that though that those things can be, can be robbed of you.” (10:59)
  • Dickinson added, “There's also something quite sweet about the idea that they both believe they're in a slightly more higher class situation... in her mind she's working high end retail… there's an idealistic element to it where it's like me and you, we're in front of a mirror, we're on Savile Row fitting a suit, you know, and there's something quite sweet about that.” (12:16)

Exploring Humanity and Survival

• Desperation and Survival
  • Stewart asked about Mike’s decision to rob a kind man early in the film:
    • Dillane: “Desperation has its own language that maybe we, yeah, we're not all tapped into if we're not desperate. I think poverty has its own language...” (13:04)
• Mike’s Dreams
  • Mike aspires to run a limousine chauffeur service—an endearingly ambitious, bittersweet dream.
    • Dickinson: “It's slightly sad, isn't it? It's like. It's overly ambitious in a way, but. But is it, you know, let's not limit... he's going to manage, I'm going to oversee. And so there's definitely a sort of some sense of arrested development with Mike and so many people in that position...” (14:28)
• A Night of Belonging
  • The significance of a night out at karaoke, where Mike feels “whole again”:
    • Dillane: “I think it really means the world to him. In many ways. I think it's the happiest night of his life. As you say, he's clean, he's made. He feels included in a new group of friends...” (15:18)

Directing Challenges and Creative Choices

• Shooting Constraints
  • Shot in 28 days across 36 locations—Dickinson called it “foolish” but credited his crew.
  • “We were doing a lot of unit moves. We were doing a lot of night shoots... you lose a location... you have to figure out what the next move is for the night...” (09:23, 16:03)
• Night Shoots & Pace
  • Summer in London imposed short nights (10pm–4:30am), creating urgency and different energies for day and night scenes. (16:39)

Depicting Reality versus Escapism

• “Trippy” Sequences
  • The film mixes social realism with moments of magical realism and surrealism, representing coping mechanisms and trauma.
  • Dickinson: “We all go to places in our mind in order to escape, particularly when we're dealing with stories around someone who has been through extreme trauma... I've always had an interest in that kind of storytelling as well. Magical realism, more surreal elements, escapist cinema…” (17:49)

Intended Impact & Broader Reflection

• Challenging Othering
  • Dillane hopes the film “humanizes” those we often ignore, reminding us that the divide between “us” and “them” is dangerously thin:
    • “If this film can. Can stand in resistance to that. That impulse in us and humanize another person who maybe some people don't give the time of day to, don't even acknowledge, I think that that is a massive achievement for this film... Mike is You, Mike, is me. There is no other person. There is no homeless person. There is no refugee. It's you. It's me.” (19:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the universality of homelessness:
  • Dillane: “There is no generic homeless person. You know, it's all of us. We could all find ourselves in. In that position, believe it or not.” (04:51)
• On costuming as dignity:
  • Dillane: “Feeling proud of yourself. Having a bit of money to spend on something you like... those things can be robbed of you.” (10:59)
• On empathy and reframing the narrative:
  • Dickinson: “We just wanted to try and get that across in the film and provide a bit of insight and empathy towards this.” (04:41)
• On creative process:
  • Dillane: “It was just like having this extra support network... Harris is an actor's director, which I think is a rare... He certainly pushed me in ways that I've not been pushed before...” (07:45)
• On magical realism:
  • Dickinson: “Why not break the form of ordinary social realism and go somewhere else with it, you know?” (17:49)
• On humanity:
  • Dillane: “Mike is You, Mike, is me. There is no other person. There is no homeless person. There is no refugee. It's you. It's me.” (19:29)

Segment Timestamps

• [00:02] – Intro to Urchin and guests
• [01:37] – Origin and development of the story
• [02:44] – Dillane on what drew him to Mike
• [03:33] – Portraying the system, support networks, and empathy
• [04:51] – Dillane on the diversity of homelessness
• [06:17] – Balancing sensitivity, realism, and levity
• [07:45] – The director-actor collaborative dynamic
• [10:25] – The significance of clothes/thrift shop scene
• [12:47] – The opening robbery scene, desperation
• [13:57] – Mike’s hopes and limousine service dream
• [15:14] – Mike’s happiest night: karaoke with coworkers
• [15:59] – The grind of a 28-day shoot
• [17:42] – The “trippy,” surreal moments and magical realism
• [19:29] – Dillane on empathy and challenging “othering”
• [20:44] – Dickinson on making another film and creative renewal
• [21:14] – Lighthearted discussion of music, piano, and mutual creativity

Tone & Style

The conversation is earnest, thoughtful, and frequently personal, marked by empathy for the film’s subject matter and appreciation of the collaborative process. Both guests speak with humility about their artistic challenges and broader social themes.

Summary

Dickinson and Dillane’s discussion reveals a film deeply informed by research, empathy, and collaboration, striving to challenge stereotypes and deepen understanding of homelessness and recovery. The episode offers listeners poignant reflections on both the craft of filmmaking and the complexities of human struggle, leaving audiences with an enriched sense of compassion and cultural context.