‘Hedda’ Director Nia DaCosta and Star Tessa Thompson

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Hedda” Director Nia DaCosta and Star Tessa Thompson

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Date: December 1, 2025
Episode Focus: Exploring the new film adaptation “Hedda” based on Ibsen’s Hedda Gabler, with director Nia DaCosta and star/producer Tessa Thompson.

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Alison Stewart delves into the new film “Hedda,” an imaginative reworking of Ibsen’s classic play, brought to life by director Nia DaCosta and actor-producer Tessa Thompson. The conversation explores the creative vision behind the adaptation, its relevance to contemporary issues of identity, power, and agency, and the filmmaking process—emphasizing how race, gender, and sexuality were re-interpreted for a modern audience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Thematic Core and “Wrestling” with Hedda (02:26–05:14)

• Nia DaCosta on Core Themes:

  • The adaptation centers on "questions around personhood and self-knowing and power, bravery, cowardice, and how all those things are wrapped up in one's individual search for who you are." (02:37)
  • Hedda is an “enigma… slightly terrifying, but... confrontational and challenging," making these themes resonate deeply.

• Tessa Thompson on Engaging Classics:

  • Tessa reflects on why adapting classics requires intention: “If you're gonna take one of these classics, you have to have skin in the game.” (03:21)
  • She hadn't considered Hedda her "Ibsen diva" until DaCosta's unique take turned her into “a woman I'm really fascinated by.” (04:12)

• Creative Process:

  • DaCosta describes “wrestling” with Hedda’s character— "like in the mud, like rain falling lightning." (04:34)
  • The multiplicity of Hedda— "everyone does that with her... everyone sees her differently." (04:41)

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Reimagining for Film, Not Stage (06:03–07:09)

• Adapting From Stage to Screen:
  • Initially considered a stage adaptation, but "filmic images kept coming to me... it just became a movie in that moment.” (06:07–07:09)
  • Example: A cinematic image focused on Hedda’s hand to convey her inner world and public/private duality.

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Producing “Hedda” and Building Characters (07:09–09:49)

• Tessa on Producing:

  • Chose the name Viva Maude after an archetypal character she admired for her rebellious spirit. (07:17)
  • Found producing to be a hands-on learning process, especially in post-production and editing: “You make a movie again in the edit, for sure.” (08:35)

• Collaborative Environment:

  • Appreciated the rare opportunity where “Orion, MGM... wanted to make it exactly in the way that [Nia] imagined it, so we didn’t have to develop it like...with so many other projects.” (08:10)

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Re-contextualizing Hedda: 1950s England, Queerness, & Race (09:49–12:53, 18:50–23:32)

• Setting & Social Context:

  • Set in 1950s England for its resonance with repression, conformity, and postwar trauma— "a time of manners, it's a time of pretending." (10:03)
  • Location and era amplify Hedda’s struggles and the story’s tension around identity and authenticity.

• Intersectionality:

  • DaCosta casts Hedda as a queer, mixed-race woman, amplifying themes of “pretending” and societal restriction. (10:03, 22:19)
  • Tessa on why Hedda chooses George over Eileen: “She is a woman of color who is...limited in terms of choices that she can make during that time in a real way.” (19:54)
  • The film explores Hedda’s autonomy and lack thereof—“It stands to challenge her ability to really find a real pathway to personhood.” (23:42)

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Character & Performance Nuances (11:49–18:01, 18:50–21:30)

• Visual Language:

  • The film delays intimacy with Hedda, letting viewers first experience her environment before focusing on her: “I wanted it to be a journey to get to the woman.” (12:53)

• Costume as Armor:

  • Tessa sees costume as “a suit...a construction of self,” reflective of how women of that era derive power and are trapped by appearance: “her beauty was a part of her power...but...if you don’t have much else, it’s its own kind of prison.” (13:51)

• Filming at Flintam Hall:

  • Describes unique location challenges—shooting in a historic manor, shooting a gun off the roof, smashing a real chandelier, and strict “no eating or drinking” rules. (15:22–17:07)

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Depicting Eileen & Central Relationships (18:50–19:54)

• About Eileen Loveborg:
  • Eileen is “brilliant,” “troubled,” an addict, ambitious, and “not so openly, but openly...queer.” (18:50)
  • Adds complexity and depth to Hedda's web of relationships.

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Agency, Manipulation, and Authenticity (21:30–23:42, 25:01–29:12)

• Agency in Historical & Social Context:

  • “Period pieces are so heteronormative...I want to speak to that experience.” (22:19)
  • Tessa: “It always sort of felt kind of sad to me that [Hedda and Eileen] can't completely find that in each other,” referencing intersectional struggles. (23:42)

• Is Hedda Manipulative?

  • Nia: "Absolutely… she's chosen to use her brilliance in ways that she feels she has access to… that does result in manipulations." (27:35)
  • Tessa: “No...in the same way, like, children are manipulative. Yeah, they are, hugely. But they're also innocent, you know." (28:05)

• Hedda’s Voice:

  • Tessa on accent and code-switching: Hedda “felt like she's kind of reaching for something that isn't entirely authentic to her...someone that has switched completely, they have, like, one mode of existing and that gets expressed… in the voice.” (25:05)
  • Clip from the film illustrates Hedda’s mannered speech and dynamic with George. (26:19–27:27)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Adapting Classics:
  • Tessa: “If you're gonna take one of these classics, you have to have skin in the game.” (03:21)
• On Hedda’s Complexity:
  • Nia: “I was wrestling with Hedda, like, in the mud, like rain falling lightning. I'm like, what is happen? Who are you?” (04:34)
• On Hedda’s Power and Prison:
  • Tessa: “Her beauty was a part of her power...but...if you don’t have much else, it’s its own kind of prison.” (13:51)
• On Manipulation & Innocence:
  • Tessa: “If she's manipulative, she is in the same way that a child might be.” (28:09)
• On the Final Scene:
  • Tessa: “Hedda, caught between dark finality and dark possibility, can do nothing, nothing but break out into a wild wanting, wicked wild wanting and wicked smile. And I just thought…God, I’m so lucky I get to.” (31:09)

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Highlights & Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:37] Nia on Core Themes: Power, personhood, courage, and fear in the search for self.
• [03:21] Tessa on Classics: The necessity of intention when adapting revered works.
• [09:49] Setting the Film: The choice of 1950s England for thematic resonance.
• [13:51] Tessa on Costume & Identity: Outfits as armor and emblem of power/prison.
• [15:22] Filming at Flintam Hall: Navigating constraints shooting in a historic manor.
• [19:54] Marriage Choice & Social Constraints: Hedda’s pragmatic decision in the context of race and sexuality.
• [23:42] Intersectional Agency: How race and sexuality shape character autonomy.
• [25:05] Hedda’s Voice: Crafting vocal authenticity and social performance.
• [27:35/28:05] Manipulation Debate: Differing views on Hedda’s tactics and innocence.
• [29:32–31:09] Rewatchable Scene: The delicate, multi-layered bedroom conversation between Hedda and Eileen.
• [31:09] Final Moment: Tessa on embodying DaCosta’s evocative stage direction.

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Notable Quotes & Attribution

• Nia DaCosta (Director):
  • “She's the warden. She's the warden, yeah.” (15:16) (On Hedda being both prisoner and jailer of her own life)
  • "I was wrestling with Hedda, like, in the mud, like rain falling lightning." (04:34)
  • “You can never go back… Hedda's learning that as well. You can only go forward.” (10:03)
• Tessa Thompson (Actor/Producer):
  • “Her beauty was a part of her power... but... you don’t have much else, it’s its own kind of prison.” (13:51)
  • “If she's manipulative, she is in the same way that a child might be.” (28:09)
  • “We miss opportunities for real connection when we're afraid to be really vulnerable… we get just right there, and it's such a terrifying thing…” (30:12)
• Alison Stewart (Host):
  • “It's weird. You said she's in a prison, but she's sort of... sort of the head of her own prison.” (15:10)

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Suggested Scenes to Rewatch (from DaCosta and Thompson)

• The bedroom conversation between Hedda and Eileen: Noted for its “truths and lies, both conscious and unconscious,” deeply portraying the film’s thematic core. (29:32–30:10)
• Hedda’s final moments in the water: For its subtle expression of emotional transformation and possibility, inspired by DaCosta’s stage direction. (31:09)

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is lively, thoughtful, and candid—marked by deep mutual respect and artistic collaboration between Nia DaCosta and Tessa Thompson.
• Both guests balance humor with poignant reflections, often considering both creative intention and social context.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rich, nuanced discussion on reinventing a canonical character for a new era—intellectually ambitious, emotionally resonant, and visually striking. DaCosta and Thompson offer creative insights, candid industry observations, and passionate engagement with themes of autonomy, repression, identity, and the enduring relevance of classics.

For viewers of “Hedda” or those considering it, this conversation is a primer in what to look for, what lies beneath the surface, and why this adaptation matters now.

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Transcript

[A]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. I'm also grateful that we have the opportunity to make a huge difference in someone's life. WNYC is teaming up with the New York Blood center for a one day blood drive. It's happening on Tuesday, December 9th from 9:30 to 2pm Sign up to donate by going to nybc.org wnyc I've already signed up. I'll meet you downstairs in the green space at 44 Charlton street in Lower Manhattan. Again, that's Tuesday, December 9th. Sign up at nybc.org wnyc and you can save someone's life this holiday season. And thank you, that is in the future. Now let's get this hour started with Hedda. A striking new imagination of Henrik Gibson's classic play transforms Hedda Gabler into a one of charm, sexual fluidity and mischievousness. In director Nia Costa's film, we meet Hedda, played by Tessa Thompson, as she's being questioned by police after reports of shots being fired at a party at her estate the night before. And party it was an open bar, a live band, dancing, illicit drugs, even fireworks. Hedda's husband is hep for a promotion and his boss is invited. But her husband is not the only candidate. Hedda's former lover, the celebrated Eileen Lovborg, is competing for the same job and she is coming to the party as well. As the night spirals. Heddle will do whatever it takes to secure the future she wants with her husband while confronting the life she might have had. But her choices come with devastating consequences. A review in the Hollywood Reporter recalls the film calls the film, quote, delightful, sexy ride that reminds us that Thompson is a star and DaCosta has many more tricks up her sleeve. Hedda is now streaming on Amazon Prime. Joining me now is the film's director, Nia dacosta. Hi, Nia. Hi. And Tessa Thompson is joining us as well. Hi, Tessa.

[B]

Hi, Alison.

[A]

So, Nia, you've described this play, Hedda, as a revelation. When you think of what is at the core of Hedda, what is the central theme?

[C]

You know, for me, when I, when I first watched it, when I first read it and then I, and then I watched it, I was so struck by this, the enigma of this person. And so for me, when I think about it thematically, I'm really thinking about these questions around personhood and self knowing and power Bravery, cowardice, and how all those things are wrapped up in one's individual search for who you are. And this who Hedda is slightly terrifying, but I think because she's so confrontational and challenging, it makes those theme, those themes, even more resonant.

[A]

What did you think when you wrote. When you heard about Nia dacosta's version of Hedda?

[B]

Oh, goodness. I mean, you know, I'm sort of of the mind. I love the classics. I grew up reading them just as a fan. And then later I had the great privilege of getting to perform, you know, Shakespeare and the Greeks. And I came to Ibsen when I was 16 and really fell in love with him. I sort of think if you're gonna take one of these classics, you have to have skin in the game. You have to have a real reason that makes sense to you to put them on stage and certainly on screen, because they become immortalized. So when called me to say that she was wrestling with an adaptation, I was so interested because I'd follow her anywhere. I made her first film with her little woods, and I would really do anything with and for her, but I didn't know why. And it was really when she sent me the script and I understood what she wanted to do with the piece, to take it apart, to put it back together and to sort of make the piece sing. You know, Hedda is a fantastic, as Nia says, enigmatic character. She was never my. My Ibsen diva until Nia sort of took her apart and put her back together. And I thought, wow, now this is. This is a woman I'm really fascinated by.

[A]

What were you wrestling with? Nia said you were sort of wrestling with the script.

[C]

I was wrestling with Hedda, like, in the mud, like rain falling lightning. I'm like, what is happen? Who are you? You know? But the thing about that wrestling is that everyone does that with her. You know, I've spoken to three or four women who've played Hedda, and they all see her differently. And that's what I love about her. She's like a real person. And so the wrestling was really like, okay, what version of her do I wanna speak of and through? And what version of her do I wanna see Tessa take on? Because I knew when I was writing it that Tessa, in an ideal world, which is the world we're in, she'd be playing her.

[B]

Are we in an ideal world?

[A]

Whoa. In this room, we have an idea.

[C]

Of absolutely the darkest timeline, but ideally the world of my movie. Hedda.

[A]

Did you watch past Hedda's because I found myself. I watched the film and then I went down and I watched one from, like, 1950s. I said, yeah, it's so interesting to watch the different actresses take on Hedda.

[B]

It's amazing. I think that's the cool thing about doing any of this canonical work, is you're a part of a tradition. And I did. I watched many. I couldn't help myself because I had never seen. I hadn't had the Nia to see Hedda on stage. And so I was really fascinated. And also because I think we were breaking some of the rules of the piece, I wanted to understand the rules we were breaking. So I watched as many as I could get my hands on. And it was. It was such a pleasure.

[A]

Nia, you originally thought you might do this for the stage, is that right?

[C]

Yeah, I thought just because it's a play, I thought I'd do it as a play. And then filmic images kept coming to me. When I was thinking about it, especially in the gap between what I'd read and what I'd seen on stage, I was like, oh, no, that's not. I thought I saw this, I saw that. And so I also just wanted to sort of, like Desa was saying, break it apart a bit more.

[A]

What kind of filmic images came to your mind? That's interesting.

[C]

Well, so they. The first one centered around Hedda and the judge and that relationship and having it be more text than subtext. And this image I had of them secreted away somewhere. And from a distance, all you see is. Is Hedda's hand bracing herself on the corner of a wall and. But you don't see them. You just see her hand, like, as if you're around the corner. And that image, to me, really said a lot about that relationship about Hedda, about the public versus private spheres that I really felt in the play. And you can do that on stage. Absolutely. And I've seen it done beautifully, but it just became a movie in that moment.

[A]

Tessa, you are producing this through your production company, Viva Mod. First of all, what does Viva Maude stand for?

[B]

I'm a big fan of the film Harold and Maude, and most especially that character Maude, that I think sort of started a filmic trope. I think she's like one of the first occurrences of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, except she destroys the trope because she also happens to be in her 80s and has a death wish. So I've just always been in love with her. And it's just, you Know, Viva, the spirit of challenging and interesting protagonists and things that are both of their time and ahead of them all.

[A]

Right. Through Viva Mod, your production company, you're a producer on this film as well. What was interesting to you about being a producer?

[B]

I've had the chance to produce on other things. I made a film called Passing and technically I also produced first film Little Woods. But it's, you know, it's very different I think when you the sort of producing that I'm doing now, which is really, you know, in earnest. And I feel really grateful that Nia let me into that process. You know, there wasn't a lot of work to get the film set. I think we got really lucky in some ways. She wrote this incredible screenplay and Orion, mgm, our partners wanted to make it and wanted to make it exactly in the way that she imagined it so we didn't have to develop it like I've had to do with so many other projects. You know, you're sort of pushing something up a mountain.

[A]

That's an amazing thing.

[B]

It's an incredible gift. But I would say, you know, something that I really had to sharpen my kind of skills. That is seeing a film through the post production and, you know, wrestling with seeing yourself in all the frames many, many, many times because you make a movie again in the edit, for sure. So that's something that, yeah, I'm learning how to do.

[A]

What have you learned about being a producer that you wouldn't know about being a producer until you're a producer?

[B]

You know, I think I have been making movies for almost two decades, which is crazy to admit, and that I can't believe time FL when you're having fun. But I've learned so much more about all of the departments and what people do. You know, movies are incredibly collaborative and actors typically come, you know, in right at the end. In some ways we're like the least essential, even though we, you know, get immortalized. But I. So I think it's just been a process of really leaning in and learning so so much about the process of making a movie and really what it takes to prettisorily see a filmmaker's vision through, you know, all of the fights and mini concessions and things that you do to. To make a thing.

[A]

Nia, you took the script from 1890s Norway to 1950s England in this giant manner. Tell us why this time period and place felt interesting for this adaptation.

[C]

Yeah, I really wanted to because I was changing certain aspects of the relationships in the play and I was changing Eilert Love Borg to Eileen Loveborg. And then Hedda would be queer. And I was making these changes. I wanted to situate it in a place that was familiar to us as a repressive, conformist time and place. And I think the 1950s, when we think about that from a cultural and a pop cultural point of view, if I said, oh, 1950s repression, everyone's like, yeah, for sure. That makes sense. England and repression go hand in hand with love. I say that. And so I just thought 1950s England would be perfect. But also it's. It's a time of manners, it's a time of pretending. And so much of Hedda is about pretending. And I think the reason why the 1950s were a time of pretending and conformity was post World War II trauma and trying to figure out how do we put society back together the way it was? But you can never go back to the way something was, which I think a lot of people, as a trauma response, just think, I need to go back to how I was before. But you can't. And I think Hedda's learning that as well. You can only go forward. So the time period, I think it spoke a lot to what I wanted to. To talk about with Hedda as well.

[A]

A new adaptation of Henrik Ibsen's play. Hedda follows newlywed Hedda, as she's played by Tessa Thompson, as she schemes her way to get her husband's promotion at work. Its director, Nia DaCosta. It is streaming now on Prime Video. So we see Hedda, she's doing her Virginia Woolf thing.

[C]

I love that everyone picked up on.

[A]

That right away, but she changes her mind. She turns around at that moment. What does Hedda want?

[B]

She. So in the original piece, spoiler alert. If people haven't read the play, Hedda Gabler shoots herself at the end of the play. I think our portrait of Hedda is a woman who is dying to live. And she hears Eileen's name, and that's as good a reason as any. So I think what she wants in that moment is to see if a choice that she wasn't brave enough to make in the past might be possible in some way now. And I think it sort of animates and energizes her.

[A]

That scene when she comes out of the water and she's walking up to take the phone call from her lover, and we see her feet and her imprints on the floor and there's a. Behind a screen, we see her profile. Tell me a little bit about the decision to take that call. And we don't see her take it initially, but we just see her profile behind kind of a old fashioned glass.

[C]

Yeah, I wanted to. I didn't want the audience to immediately be inside of Hedda's experience. I wanted the context of her world to. To take the forefront. Because the first time we get a close up of Hedda, it's at the end of this long sort of you seeing her house, you see her prepare for this party, you seeing all the trappings of her life, you see her out of focus in the background. I wanted it to be a journey to get to the woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And by the time you get to the woman, by the time you're like, oh, here she is, you've experienced her world in a way. One, that she's very unhappy with it, Two, what that world is and then. And then herself. So that's why I wanted. I wanted to do that way.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting to see Hedda because she looks gorgeous in all these outfits. I'm curious though, what is it like for you to put on the suit to go to work? I mean, that's what actors are doing, they're putting on their costumes. But it's. It's a suit of sorts.

[B]

Yeah, it's a. It completely is a suit. I mean, in this case, I think also Hedda is a woman herself who's putting on sort of a suit, who has kind of armor and has a kind of construction of self. And I also think it's very emblematic of women during that time. You know, I look at photographs of my grandmothers and one of them who's still alive, you know, is in her 80s and, you know, every single day. I mean, she struggles with dementia and Alzheimer's, but she never forgets to put on her red lipstick. You know, remarkably, it's so incredibly linked to her identity is that, you know, her beauty was a part of her power. And I think Hedda is a woman who is really trapped inside of that way of thinking as well, which is both a blessing and a curse, I think, to feel like you have that at your veil as a woman, but to feel like you don't have much else is its own kind of prison. So, you know, I always think that what you wear inside of a character also always informs work. I think in this case, this green dress that allows her to be mercurial, to blend in with her background and also that really kind of hems her in the sort of boning of the time. It's not the most comfortable thing to Wear it. Informed a lot. Certainly.

[A]

It's weird. You said she's in a prison, but she's sort of. Sort of the head of her own prison.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

At the same time.

[C]

She's the warden. She's the warden, yeah.

[A]

Tell me where this was filmed, Nia.

[C]

It was filmed in the Midlands at a place called Flintam hall, owned by Sir Robert Hildeard, who so wonderfully let us just, you know, do whatever we wanted in there, except for eat or drink water. But we definitely were given freedom.

[A]

Wait a minute.

[B]

Okay, so you had to shoot a.

[A]

Party, first of all?

[C]

Yes. Yeah. So basically we had to find a place that would let us shoot a gun off the roof.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Shoot fireworks at night and annoy all the neighbors. Smash a chandelier inside.

[B]

A very big chandelier inside of a glass room.

[C]

Yeah. Like, we had to find someone who would let us do that. And he did. But I think he also was like, okay, these books are hundreds of years old. This fireplace is like original, antique. The floor is like, do not eat or drink.

[B]

Which, by the way, at the time I was challenging. I'm actually very glad because I am really prone to spilling things. I definitely.

[C]

I would have to.

[B]

Yeah, I would have. I'm so. I'm glad. It was a rule. It was very smart.

[C]

Yeah. Because it's so easy when you film. Like, I would never let anyone film in my house. Filming is. And we, you know, we always restore it back to the way it should be, but, like, it's just so many people, so much can happen. And I'm really proud of us because, honestly, like, we did. We did protect that house, but. And also anything that we didn't protect, like, it went back the way it was. But, for example, the chandelier scene, when the chandelier has to smash, we had to protect the floor. So we built a floor in that room. Like, everyone steps up into the conservatory or the conservatory in that movie, but actually you don't normally do that. We had to build up a floor, protect the glass. Like, we took a lot of precautions to make sure that this beautiful home wasn't damaged.

[A]

Did you have non negotiables, things that had to happen? I mean, obviously the chandelier had to fall, but things that had to happen for this to be the location.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. The lake.

[B]

The lake, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of extraordinary. It's sort of extraordinary that we found this house. You know, it just had everything that we needed and wanted. And also it's very, very rare, especially These days to shoot a movie all in one location like that. And I really do think. I mean, people often say this, but I think it really is true in our film, which is that this location, this house, becomes a character in the movie. You know, it plays a profound sort of role in Hedda and the choices that she's made. And the fact that we had access to it in that way is really an extraordinary gift, but rare to find a location that just is everything you need and want.

[A]

Was it challenging to shoot in a house?

[C]

I like shooting inside real places just because I think what most people would see as challenges are actually, like, opportunities kind of opportunities, but also, like, it makes the audience feel like we're in a real place as opposed to, like, if you're like, shooting through a wall, you know, you can feel when it. I always want people to feel like they're in the place with the characters. There were definitely restrictions, for sure, but I think you just figure them out with the team. Like, that's like the. That's what prop's for, really. And then you figure them out with the team. We didn't have to lose anything, I don't think, because of the house.

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm speaking with director Nia DaCosta and actor Tessa Thompson. We're talking about Hedda. It's now streaming on Prime Video. Her new flame, her old flame, Eileen Loveberg, comes to this party. Describe Eileen for me.

[C]

Oh, Eileen. I love Eileen so much. Eileen Loveborg is an academic. She's brilliant. She's troubled. She's an addict, she's an alcoholic. And she really struggles. Like, she really struggles. But she's on. When we meet her, she's been on the straight and narrow for a few months. She's met someone new who makes her feel like she can get through this life and be good in the way that she thinks she should be good. And she's incredibly ambitious, and she believes that her intellectual is her power and that will save her from everything else. She's also not so openly, but openly, but like, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, queer. And in the way that some women were able to sort of, you know, do it in that time. But that, you know, all that together creates this really compelling, empathetic, but also troubled woman.

[A]

Tessa. Hedda chooses George to marry rather than continue her relationship with Eileen. Why does she choose George?

[B]

I think she chooses George because he is really the only viable option in her estimation. You know, never mind that she is a woman who wants a certain amount of access to privilege and resource in society during that time. But she's also, you know, a woman of color who is really, I think, limited in terms of choices that she can make during that time in a real way. In the 50s, during that time, there were a lot of arrests that were happening for people that were suspected of homosexuality. There was real danger at that time for being out funnily, or I don't know if it's funny, but women were actually not being arrested in the same way as men because there was this idea that our sexual sexuality didn't even really matter and it wasn't important enough to litigate. But even still, I think it was something that was still hugely stigmatized. And also, you know, when Eileen and Hedda, I always imagine, had their time together, which they sort of talk about in some of their scenes, they were not. It was a troublesome match. I mean, I don't know that either of them would have gotten out alive. And certainly I don't know that they would have been able to pay their bills. You know what I mean? So I think she makes a choice that, that, that makes sense to her. And I think she frankly makes a choice that a lot of people make, which is they make they, you know, they get into marriages or relationships out of some, you know, pragmatic desire, and then they find themselves in lives that don't fit too squarely on them.

[A]

We're discussing Hedda with Nia dacosta and Tessa Thompson. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all. You're listening to, all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are director Nia Costa and actor Tessa Thompson. We're talking about Hedda, their new film now streaming on Prime Video. It's interesting because a central part of Ibsen's play is agency. That's a big part of it. How does the story change when you consider that Hedda is a mixed race bisexual? The 1950s.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, so knowing that I was writing with Tessa in mind, well, I also always knew I was just like, at the time I was writing it, I wanted all my leads to be black. Like, that was just really important to me. I was just like black women in particular. And then thinking about Tessa, I was like, okay, Tessa, someone in this body is now going to be Hedda. So. So I just thought about what that meant at the time, what opportunities that offered for the story, you know, especially with like, General Gobbler, who in the original is such an intense presence. And then you think about him being her White parent and that we never hear about her mother or black mother. You know, it's like, I found that really dynamic and interesting, and I think that says a lot if, you know, did listen, you know, her being a queer woman, I also found really interesting because, like, something I felt a lot growing up actually was like, I think when I realized, oh, people can be gay, like, I was like, there's so many, like, why don't we ever talk about it? I don't understand. Like, because I'm like, that's not a big deal. No one in my family thought it was a big deal. So, like, why don't. And so I just imagine, especially in period pieces, they're so heteronormative, like, I want to speak to that experience in that way. So for me, it just ended up making Hedda even more compelling, frankly.

[A]

Tessa, how about for you? How does race and sexuality show up in Hedda's ability to be fully autonomous in the society?

[B]

Yeah, I would say it's always a choice, right? I mean, there were certainly instances, I'm sure, of women that were, you know, like Hedda, who had constraints at the time in the bodies that they existed in and still decided to make brave choices and to live with real autonomy. But I certainly think it really. It stands to challenge her ability to really find a real pathway to personhood. And I think the thing that's really interesting that you sort of see played out a little bit in some of these conversations between Eileen and Hedda. You know, they're both women of their time, understand the constraints of their time, but they are not the same. You know, Eileen doesn't have the same struggles that Hedda has and can't. She's not really capable of seeing that and having real empathy and understanding for that. And I certainly have been in situations, you know, where I'm talking to another woman and we're, you know, talking about our shared experiences. But also there's nuance. There's intersectional nuance to mine, and that takes real, you know, listening and humility. And it always sort of felt kind of sad to me that they can't completely find that in each other.

[A]

How did you decide on Hedda's voice?

[C]

Oh, this is so fun.

[B]

I sort of thought that there's. When I was sort of doing digging and listening to actual samples of voices during that time, particularly people in the aristocracy, I kind of couldn't believe, with all due respect, how silly some of voices were. Just this idea that sort of the. The more wealth that you had and More power that you had, the less you have to even open your mouth, you know, to speak. And I just thought there were such sort of interesting ways that people use their voices and. And. And just a, you know, fascinating thing about how mannered some of this speech felt and was. And. And I just thought it was really interesting if there was a part of. Of Hedda that felt like she's kind of reaching for something that isn't entirely authentic to her. I mean, I think we see that for all of us, to varying degrees, this idea of sort of code switching. But I sort of found it interesting, someone that has switched completely, they have, like, one mode of existing and that gets expressed kind of in. Yeah. In the voice.

[A]

Well, let's listen to a clip so people can hear what we're talking about. This is Hedda telling her husband, George, that Eileen, her former lover, is also applying for the same position. This is from Hedda.

[D]

I'll get this position and begin paying.

[B]

Eileen Lovborg is applying for your position at the university. George endowment and all.

[C]

What?

[D]

She's asked to be considered. I'm in competition with that woman. She codes it up to press a green. Him or his wife, George, what she gets up to?

[B]

What does she get up to?

[D]

I'm sure you've heard the rumors.

[B]

I thought she's reformed. Changed away, stopped drinking, apparently.

[D]

Really?

[B]

While she was at the innocent.

[D]

What does that matter? We got married, we borrowed money, we went into debt because the position was virtually mine. That was before the reappearance of Eileen Lovel.

[B]

Don't be afraid of competition, Desmond.

[D]

This isn't the game. Do you even care?

[B]

I care deeply, my love. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

[A]

That's from Hedda. In so many descriptions of Hedda Gabler, she's described as manipulative. Do you think she's manipulative?

[C]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. But I think that, you know, she's learned what tools work for her, and I think she's brilliant and she's chosen to use her brilliance in ways that she feels she has access to. And I think that does result in manipulations, you know, with no judgment about whether or not that's a good or bad thing. But. Yeah.

[A]

Do you consider Hedda to be a bit manipulative?

[B]

No.

[A]

You've got a yes. You've got a no.

[B]

Not personally. I mean, in the same way. In the same way, like, children are manipulative. Yeah, they are, hugely. But they're also innocent, you know. Oh, there's this presumption of innocence. But children can be incredibly manipulative and maniacal and violent and, you know, act out on all sorts of unsavory impulses. And that's the way that I understood. Understood Hedda. I think children are capable of all sorts of things before they've been socialized, before they understand. And I think that socialization is necessary. It's necessary for us to say to children, you need to share with your friend. It's not okay to hit. It's not okay to act out or pretend to cry to get something that you want. And I think that in some ways, the way that we socialize, people also inhibit the best of us, you know, and that's sort of how I see her. So if she's manipulative, she is in the same way that a child might be.

[A]

Okay, my last question is because of streaming, which is great often, because you can go back again, you can rewatch a scene several times. What's a scene in the film that you would like people to pay special attention to or maybe to watch again?

[C]

Oh, that's a great question. I think the scene in the bedroom between Eileen and Hedda. There's a lot going on in that scene. Just in terms of interesting. You talk about this question of manipulative or not. I think a lot about when Hedda's being truthful. And I think there's so much truth in that scene for Hedda and for Eileen. But there's also lies in that scene for both of them. And I think some of them are conscious and some of them are unconscious. And I think the work that Tessa and Nina do, Nina Haas, who plays Eileen do in that scene, is remarkable. So that would be a really fun scene for people to rewatch.

[A]

How about for you, Tessa?

[B]

Oh, I like that scene too. I think that's a good one. Because I think something that you sort of see happen in that scene and something that I think happens to a lot of people, of us, oftentimes as humans, is the way that we miss each other and we miss opportunities for real connection when we're afraid to be really vulnerable. You know, we get just right there, and it's such a terrifying thing, but it really is the only way that we find real connection, not just to other people, but to ourselves. And, you know, if they were right, they were almost right there. So I think that's such a tender thing to watch and to unpack the moments that we've maybe been guilty of that ourselves. You know, we almost could have had that, you know, real moment of honesty with ourselves and with someone else to really be seen.

[A]

I love it in the water, the way your face changes at the end.

[C]

Yeah, it's just.

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

Well, Nia DaCosta wrote the most beautiful piece of stage direction that I have ever read in my entire life that almost got tattooed on my brain. And the way that she writes the end of the movie is Hedda, caught between dark finality and dark possibility, can do nothing, nothing but break out into a wild wanting, wicked wild wanting and wicked smile. And I just thought, this is how will I ever do it? But, God, I'm so lucky I get to.

[C]

She did it.

[A]

The name of the film is Hedda. It's streaming now on Prime Video. My guests have been director Nia DaCosta and writer and Tessa Thompson, actor. Thanks for coming in.

[B]

Thank you so much for having us.

[E]

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