Podcast Summary
Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Episode: How American Education Can Better Serve Black Students
Date: September 4, 2024
Guest: Brian Rashad Fuller, author, educator, and Associate Provost at The New School.
Overview
This episode centers on the challenges and potential reforms needed to better serve Black students in American education. Host Alison Stewart is joined by Brian Rashad Fuller, whose new book—Being Black in America: A Student Educator Reformer’s Call for Change—blends personal memoir and policy critique. The conversation focuses on systemic inequities, the importance of inclusion, curricular reform, trauma awareness, and practical avenues for change at every level of educational practice.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Limitations of Diversity Initiatives
(03:14)
- Fuller applauds schools like Brearley for increasing student diversity via tuition support but warns inclusion must go far deeper:
“I think that’s just the first step… you need to make sure that all students feel included and welcome once they get there… my hope is that they're looking at their curriculum and their school designs… to ensure that it is an inclusive environment and all students feel like they belong.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (03:14)
2. The Book’s Genesis: Broadening the Lens Beyond Criminal Justice
(03:56-05:27)
- Inspired by the attention to racial inequity in the criminal justice system during the 2020 uprisings, Fuller sought to turn that critical eye on education:
“As a nation, we started to question our criminal justice system… But what about our American educational system? … I wanted us to start collectively having that conversation.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (04:10) - The book adopts a narrative approach to reach audiences beyond data and policy:
“Powerful storytelling… inspires people to action. …a story cuts through the noise of all of that.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (05:05)
3. "Blowing Up the Center": Beyond Tinkering
(05:35-09:28)
- Fuller discusses advice given by a veteran educator: tinkering around the edges has failed, and a radical overhaul is needed—what she called “blowing up the center.”
“The center for me is a white supremacist mentality and white supremacist designs that are upheld within our public education system. …We need to really just blow up the center and really rethink our designs… move away from the white centric, white supremacist mindset.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (07:05) - Practical examples:
- The new Black Studies curriculum in NYC, finally teaching Black history before slavery
- Rethinking discipline, assessment, gifted programs—all often entangled with racial bias
- Creating environments where every student’s brilliance is recognized
4. The Impact of Early Childhood Education ⏳ (09:28-12:15)
- It’s not just academically vital: early education is crucial for supporting identity formation and counteracting early racial trauma.
“Children have majority of their development from the ages of 0 to 5… for Black and Brown students… there’s racial stress trauma that is introduced… it is underreported but significantly plaguing Black and Brown youth…”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (09:53) - Early exposure to support, care, and identity-affirming curriculum can counteract these harms and raise later achievement.
5. Memoir: Personal Trauma in the Classroom ⏳ (12:15-15:40)
- Fuller recalls how a high school teacher singled him out with a news article on Black male incarceration and low life expectancy.
“He made a flippant joke saying… Black men should get a discount on their Social Security, because since you die so young. And he thought it was funny… As an adult I look at that and I just see how harmful that was and how violent that was towards me.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (13:40) - Such moments, normalized in the environment, leave lasting harm even if not immediately recognized as such by students.
6. Navigating Gifted Programs & Perceived Innocence ⏳ (15:40-18:19)
- Fuller experienced the International Baccalaureate (IB) program as both opportunity and alienation:
- Very few Black/Brown students among high-achieving peers
- White classmates received grace and innocence not extended to him
Memorable Story:- When a white classmate brought breakfast to class, it was ignored; Fuller notes he would’ve faced discipline for the same behavior (17:42-17:52).
7. The Need for New Teacher Training
(18:19-19:41)
- Beyond intention, educators bring biases into the classroom; conscious, ongoing professional development is essential.
“Many of us as educators, we're very well meaning, but at the same time, we all come with our biases. …Teacher education and teacher professional development is extremely important.”
— Brian Rashad Fuller (18:38) - Fuller is developing a companion PD guide with equity rubrics and self-reflection exercises.
8. Where Change Must Begin: Ground-Level Action ⏳ (19:41-21:50)
- Of all levels—federal, state/local, classroom—Fuller says real change starts with teacher-student interaction:
"I think this work is grassroots… even if they're banning diversity, equity, inclusion, banning books … we can still make sure that we empower our students in the classroom on the ground… We can do [this] on the ground. Right. To start making changes brick by brick."
— Brian Rashad Fuller (20:18 / 21:00)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On institutional tinkering:
"Tinkering around the edges is not gonna solve the problem with black children. We need to, quote, blow up the center and start fresh."
— Recalls a veteran educator’s words (05:35, paraphrased through Alison Stewart) -
On teacher impact:
"Sometimes we are... it's so normalized to dehumanize our students in the classroom, and especially our black and brown students, that even when they're experiencing it as I was, you just go on with your day."
— Brian Rashad Fuller (15:28) -
On educators’ responsibility:
"We all come with our biases. And so we need to be honest about that... professional development is extremely important."
— Brian Rashad Fuller (18:38) -
On bottom-up action:
"This work is grassroots... we can do on the ground... To start making changes brick by brick."
— Brian Rashad Fuller (21:00)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:14 — First reactions to Brearley's diversity initiative
- 04:10 — Why Fuller wrote the book; importance of educational critique
- 07:05 — “Blow up the center” explained
- 09:53 — Early childhood education and racial trauma
- 13:40 — High school teacher’s harmful behavior recounted
- 17:42 — IB program anecdote: double standards with breakfast
- 18:38 — The importance of addressing educator bias
- 20:18 / 21:00 — Why change starts in the classroom, not just policy
Conclusion
This episode blends personal narrative and expertise to argue that real, sustained change for Black students must move beyond surface gestures toward deep structural, curricular, and interpersonal transformation. While systemic change at all levels matters, Fuller insists that individual educators can—regardless of current policy climate—start honoring and humanizing Black students today.
Recommended for:
- Parents, teachers, and administrators seeking to understand and improve educational equity
- Anyone interested in the intersection of culture, race, and American institutions
Guest resource:
Being Black in America: A Student Educator Reformer’s Call for Change by Brian Rashad Fuller