Caller (2:44)

Have you ever used ChatGPT to write an essay or finish a reading. Did you consider it cheating? If you're in school, call or text us now. You can use a fake name. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. If we have parents tuning in, tell us if your kids are using ChatGPT for if you had to deal with cheating accusations, do you discourage chatgpt for your kids or do you encourage it? Are there any educators out there? We'd like to hear from you as well. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. So, James, you spoke to one student who uses ChatGPT, and they told you, quote, I'm against copy and pasting. I'm against cheating and plagiarism, all of that. It's against the student handbook. But then she puts in a prompt that gives her an outline, an introduction, and a whole bunch that basically write her essay for her. Do students think of it as cheating?

James D. Walsh (3:42)

Sure. That was kind of the most fascinating part of my conversations with students is watching them work in real time to understand where their work ends and where AI begins. This is a student who truly, like she said, she prefaced our entire conversations and she wants to follow the student handbook, then thought, okay, my conversations with AI. AI is helping me. It's a tool, just as it would in the workforce. It's something that I have access to, so I might as well use it. But she's using it to generate the central arguments of her essay. And of course, that's a lot of the thinking that we need and we develop in college. That's the point of college. It's not just simply to construct sentences. She may not go on to become a writer or copy editor, but she'll use the kind of critical thinking she got out of the exercise of writing the paper.

Caller (4:35)

Ideally, how do people draw the distinction between cheating, not cheating, sort of cheating? Esque. Are there distinctions?

James D. Walsh (4:44)

Well, certainly, you know, professors have tried to flat out, you know, ban AI in their classroom or said in their instructions, okay, it's okay if you use AI, but only use it to have conversations before you dive in in earnest. Or they might say, go ahead, use AI, but provide a printout of your conversation with AI so I can sort of watch the thinking. There's a lot of different ad hoc ways you can go about it. A lot of the students I spoke to think of those rules, let's say, as guidelines rather than really hard rules. And the hardest Part for these professors is it's really hard to catch an AI cheater. I mean, it can be easy to identify AI, they think a lot of professors can say, I can spot AI writing from a mile away. But really proving the case kind of turns professors into the Perry Mason role, trying to catch an it, which is just really unpleasant for everybody.

Caller (5:41)

Well, what is ChatGPT good at and what is it not good at?

James D. Walsh (5:46)

Well, anything that it's not good at, it's getting better at for the most part. You know, there are some recent studies that show hallucinations, which is its, you know, proclivity to make up facts. Whole cloth might be getting a little worse, but in terms of writing, it's getting much better. And it can at least get you to a place where it doesn't take much editing to write it so that it sounds human. It is good at coding. However, your code will still have bugs. So it's important for students to know how to debug certain large formats of code. So it's far from a perfect tool, but it can certainly get you 80% of the way of your assignment.

Alison Stewart (6:32)

Let's talk to Anna, who is a college professor calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Anna, thank you so much for making the time to call. All of it. You're on the air.

Anna (6:42)

Thank you so much. Yeah, so a few semesters back, when ChatGPT kind of first came on the scene, I put my assignments, my writing assignments in my classes into it and realized that they were. The biggest problem, actually, is that the system would print out a fairly detailed outline, which then someone could put into their own words, really making it almost impossible to kind of uncover. So I reworked my assignments mostly by requiring them to listen or watch or read something that's not publicly available online, and then kind of the rest of the assignment responds to that so that they actually have to do some of their original work. I will say, I think as a teaching at the college level, I wish there was more support for instructors around this because it is kind of all left up, at least at the institution I teach at, left up to us individually. And as I think was just said by your guests, even if you suspect that something is AI generated and there are platforms where actually professors can upload papers, and it will tell you how likely is it that, you know, this was written by AI versus a person, proving it is next to impossible. And so kind of where does that leave us?

Caller (8:04)

Thank you so much. Anna.

Alison Stewart (8:05)

Did you want to respond?

James D. Walsh (8:06)

Well, I mean, not only that, those AI detectors, whether, whether or not, you know, how effective they are is a matter of great debate. But even if they were 100% effective, like the caller just said, they're not going to be able to screen for the central arguments or themes that a robot could be producing. So it doesn't really prevent students from cheating in a way that really isn't helping them develop their critical thinking at all.

Caller (8:38)

Let's talk to Ann, who's calling in from Harlem. Hi, Ann, you're on the air.

Ann (8:43)

Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I teach and at the college level, and some of my colleagues have decided to forbid the use of any kind of AI like ChatGPT. And I think that's a losing game. My approach is to figure out how do we use it in a way that is pedagogically creative and still has integrity. So I ask my students if they're going to use it, that's fine, but tell me that you did and tell me how you did and cite it the way you would cite any outside source that you're drawing on. I've used it myself and I put together a brand new graduate seminar a couple of years ago, and I developed the syllabus. And it's very time consuming, it's creative, it's a good piece of work, you know. But then when it was done, I said, let me put versions of this into ChatGPT and some other AI tools and see what comes out. And it both confirmed some of the choices I'd already made. It also pointed me to material I didn't know anything about. So I was able to develop a stronger syllabus. But then it also hallucinated in some ways, which is what I also tell my students. If you're using ChatGPT or another AI and they tell you they make a claim, you must verify it and show me how you verified it. So the tool, they're going to use this tool. So our challenge as educators is to figure out how do we fold it in so that it's not cheating, but it's helping them learn and it's helping us figure out how can this be instructive? How can it be something that is worthwhile for them and for us, but is not just abdicating our obligations as educators? So, and I haven't figured all this out yet. And so it's changing so fast all the time that, you know, I think I've got it settled for one semester and by the start of the next semester I have to kind of begin again. But the point is, how do I communicate with my students so that I trust them and they trust me. And we figure this out collaboratively. And sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes it works beautifully. So it's catch as catch can still. But I'm kind, frankly, I'm kind of excited by these tools.

Caller (10:47)

Ann, thank you so much for calling in. What did educators tell you? James?

James D. Walsh (10:52)

I spoke to quite a few professors at the college level who were in sort of a state of despair. They felt kind of underwater with the sheer number of students who were clearly using AI and not citing it despite instructions to do so in their syllabus. You know, it says there's absolutely no AI or as similar to, you know, the caller, if you use AI, please cite it. And it just does not happen. And so they feel as if they're fighting this uphill battle where they're constantly confronted with and they have to make these decisions. For example, I spoke to one professor who said, you know, what do I do with basically a decent paper that was written with AI? I can tell it's robotic language. It's, you know, the grammar is perfect. This was an AI paper. And then I get this other paper that is barely literate. What grades do I give those people if I'm putting them on the same scale? It presents all of these really difficult problems.

Alison Stewart (11:53)

My guest is James Walsh. He reported on this story for the Intelligencer, New York magazine. It's called Everyone is Cheating Their Way Through College. Have you had an incidence with ChatGPT or AI? Did you use it? Are you a professor who's encountered it? Give us a call. 969-221-2433. WNYC. We'll have more of your calls and more with James after a quick break. This is all of It. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is James Walsh. He wrote a piece called Everyone is Cheating Their Way Through College. We're talking about generative AI. I wanted to ask you a very simple question. What? Did students tell you why they were using ChatGPT?

James D. Walsh (12:50)

Right. That's a very important question. Some of the students, I would say the kind of most techno optimist, forward thinking students had the approach that AI is here to stay and it's something that they are learning to use now so that they can use it effectively in the workplace. Many other students told me they use AI for the same reasons that, you know, I may have, may have peaked at Spark Notes or something, you know, when I was Wikipedia or something like that. Yeah, right. You know, that it was a way to cut a corner. It was a quick way to get something done more quickly just so that they had time to do something else. You know, when we talk about cheating, the research shows that cheating correlates with a lot of really big problems. It's a student's place of belonging. It can be socioeconomic. It can be, you know, all kinds of societal forces that push somebody to cheat. So it's a really big question about why students are going to AI. And I do think it's important that students learn how to use AI, especially college students, as they prepare for the workforce. The thing that what we don't want is to only learn how to do stuff that AI already knows how to do. Because then of course, they matriculate into the workforce and they're going to be the most replaceable people on the list. They're the first to go because AI can already do that job.

Alison Stewart (14:17)

How have these generative chatbots challenge us to think about the purpose of higher education?

James D. Walsh (14:25)

That is kind of the most fascinating part of this whole thing that we have this magic tool, as we've called it, that can do all of these assignments. So it's forced both students and professors to question the assignments to begin with on a kind of granular level. Why are we here? Why are we doing this assignment? Why are we enrolled in this class? Why are we then trying to get this degree? Is it to acquire a skill that's going to help us in the workplace? Is it to found the next big Silicon Valley unicorn? Or is it to be kind of well rounded people and deep thinking people and to learn more about our own cultures and other cultures? And that is the question that AI is forcing upon both students, professors, and the people who are running these schools.

Caller (15:12)

Let's take some more calls. George is calling in from Montclair. Hi, George, thank you so much for calling all of it. You are on the air.

George (15:20)

Good afternoon. Thank you. Good discussion. I've been dealing. I teach. I used to, until recently. I taught English in a community college and I teach philosophy in a private college. And it's very interesting. The working class kids did not really know how to use it. So it didn't. I was teaching writing too, and so I didn't have that much of a problem, but I had to deal with plagiarism. You know, there's a lot of bad habits, especially during COVID you know, when people weren't watching them. And one of your respondents said, I do this, I keep everything as contemporary. All of my Models as contemporary as possible so that they can't look it up on Spark notes. But the other thing that I wanted to say is you really can't tell. We do have software that gives us a probability. And so in my philosophy class, I've stopped. It's so funny. I've stopped. I've pulled back from essay questions and gone to short answer questions just to make sure that they've read the text. So in other words, I used to expect them to read the test text and analyze it themselves. Now I'm just getting them to reading it and I'll just try to add the analysis. So.

Caller (16:41)

Yeah, last thing and then want to dive in.

George (16:44)

And one quick story. My grandson uses AI to write code with. And so I was talking to him about it and talking, this is just last year. And I showed him some essays that were definitely, you know, as one of the respondents said, hallucination. You know, hallucinations. The chatbot had not read the essay at all. It was an essay about, oh God. Amanda Gorman tried to get a job for Lion King. And the chatbot, the writing bot, assumed that she was a poor black girl trying to struggle through life.

Alison Stewart (17:23)

Definitely not what you want to assume about Amanda Gorman. He said something interesting there about COVID Did Covid play a role in this?

James D. Walsh (17:31)

Well, of course, ChatGPT went live in November of 2022, and in a way, this sort of cheating epidemic on college campuses started during COVID Schools saw a spike in cheating because of remote learning, essentially. Not only were students kind of unsupervised during remote Lear, they also had access to all these websites like CourseHero and Chegg, which provided on demand answers to questions. You could just throw in a question and Chegg would say, we guarantee if you're a paying subscriber within 30 minutes, a thorough answer to whatever question you want. And so cases of cheating and honor code violations at schools across the country in some cases doubled or tripled during.

Alison Stewart (18:23)

COVID One of our texts asked, I'd like to know how James has seen ChatGPT and other AI tools used by journalists.

James D. Walsh (18:30)

Sure, certainly. I mean, it is a very effective tool. I think journalists probably use it much the same way a lot of other people use it to help synthesize, analyze, summarize. Journalists, I think everywhere are extremely grateful to ChatGPT for, for interview transcriptions. That's been a huge thing for us. But, you know, I certainly do not rely on it in any sort of way for anything factual, anything writing that is all off, off AI.

Alison Stewart (19:07)

This says I have something to say about ChatGPT. I'm a student and I've never used it, but I don't consider it cheating. I use other AI apps for helping with math. A lot of people just thinks it gives answers, but it also gives me an explanation that's interesting. Let's talk to Emmy. Hi, Emmy, thanks for calling all of it.

Emmy (19:27)

Hi. I don't feel too friendly about the use of AI for student writing. I'm a college professor. I teach English and I teach a meat and potatoes course that is required that involves a lot of writing and close textual reading. I mainly want to say that at our institution, students say again and again when asked. They want to sound more professional. And in fact, in the fall, I want to show them paragraphs from an A paper that are not perfect, B paper that are good but not perfect, and show them AI so they can see what the difference is in the writing. AI is very general. It's rather sterile. There are a lot of traits that it has. And I just also wanted to throw out a couple of tips to instructors about how to catch it. I have to sit with certain students. And the other thing is, excuse me, we are now, it is now suggested to us that we do a lot more in class writing and have that count as part of the grade. And so I do that. And in order to bring a case against a student, which is very time consuming, but I do it. I give them a vocab test on writing they've submitted. Generally, they can't define any of the words they use in their own writing. And I also have to compare it to their in class writing. But the whole. Our phrase is that students should not use it because they gain unfair advantage and they are very anxious about grades. They want to get into certain programs like you're facing.

Caller (21:13)

I'm going to dive in there because you brought up something really interesting that students feel under pressure, that they feel under pressure for grades, about getting into colleges, about meeting standards. Can you talk about that a little bit?

James D. Walsh (21:26)

Yeah. I think, you know, we're long past the point where college is this ideal where somebody goes to further their horizons. For a long time now, we thought of school as kind of transactional, like, if I do this, then I can do this and I can earn this. And so of course, that puts pressure on students. We know that high school grades correlate to your income later in life. And so students are going to want to get better grades. They feel pressure to get better grades. And so if they have this tool in their back Pocket and seemingly no consequences for using it, then who can blame them for using means a better life?

Caller (22:10)

Is this something we should be thinking of as a tool?

James D. Walsh (22:14)

It is a tool. You know, right now it is a tool. It is a tool that we don't know what it's capable of and we don't know what the consequences of using it and depending on it so much.

Caller (22:25)

Should we be teaching kids how to use it? Maybe it's a tool that it needs instruction.

James D. Walsh (22:33)

Well, of course, you know, AI companies are certainly trying to capture younger and younger users. I think that makes me very, very nervous and should make a lot of people very, very nervous. I think we should be introducing AI to kids, but I think there needs to be guardrails. That's really important, especially for young kids.

Caller (22:54)

Steve, you got about 45 seconds. Go for it.

Steve (22:59)

Okay. My colleagues And I at CUNY have been facing this for the 19 years that I've been on the job. It's just gotten worse and worse. Most recently, the AI has taken the whole thing off the charts. We are increasingly depending on in class writing A, because if I have in my left hand a scrawled paragraph of not very good English and on my right hand something that looks like it was written by a rather boring PhD candidate, then I know, I recognize the problem. The teacher knows if you're using AI2, we are increasingly using the in class writing for just about everything. It's the only way you can assure that the students are thinking, writing, struggling with syntax and grammar and gives you that paper, gives you an indication of how you can properly help the students. Your screener asks me, does that increase my workload? I say that it decreases my workload because I'm not trying to catch cheaters.

Caller (23:55)

What is your response?

James D. Walsh (23:56)

Well, yeah, I wonder how it's going. I mean, what are you seeing on the page? Are you encouraged?

Steve (24:04)

I'm encouraged to use the in class writing more. Even students who can write, I know they can write because I have their in class writing. Even the ones who are good writers who are looking at an A are using it.

Caller (24:17)

Stephen, thank you so much for calling in. Anything else you wanted to add to this discussion as we wrap up?

James D. Walsh (24:24)

I think we've covered quite a bit. It's been great.

Caller (24:27)

You should read the article. It is called Everyone is Cheating their way Through College. It's with New York magazine, the Intelligencer. My guest has been James Walsh. Thank you for joining us and for taking our listeners calls.

James D. Walsh (24:41)

Thank you, Alison.

Caller (24:43)

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time and we will have one of the stars of the film Sinners. I'll see you back here tomorrow.

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