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Foreign.
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This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Today we're talking about some of the different ways that money can impact us at different stages of life. And one of those stages is the decision to buy a home. School districts are an incredibly important piece of that puzzle. The vibe of the neighborhood, the, the scenery. But in a changing climate, you also have to consider things like flood risk, fire risk, insurance rates, how much heating or cooling you'll need during the seasons. At either temperature extreme, there's a lot to consider. A pair of New York Times journalists have compiled a guide to everything you should know about the intersection of climate change and home ownership. And they recently sat down with my colleague David Furst to talk about it. They also took some listener questions. But since this is an encore presentation, we won't be able to take your call today. Here's David.
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It's the consensus of world scientists that fossil fuels are causing a climate crisis leading to increased heat, drought, wildfires, flooding, and other extreme weather across the globe. Earlier this year, the New York Times published an article titled how how to shop for a home that won't be upended by climate change. And our next guests, New York Times yous money columnist Ron Lieber and personal finance reporter Tara Siegel. Bernard compiled a list of questions that they say every current or prospective homeowner or renter should ask to mitigate their risk. Ron and Tara, welcome to all of it.
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C
Thanks for having us.
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A
Hello, Ron, you are the New York Times, you, money columnist. Tara is a personal finance reporter. What drew you both to write this piece about climate change Risks?
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Intense personal fear. I have been.
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Fear is a good motivator.
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D
Yeah. So I've been an apartment owner in Brooklyn and Park slope for over 20 years. And like many Americans lucky enough to be a homeowner, a pretty decent chunk of my net worth is in that Park Slope apartment. New York City is a part of the world that is climate exposed. Most places are these days. And so I got to wondering just how devastating it would be from a personal finance perspective if Sandy to the 10th plower came and knocked out all of New York City electricity for six months or took the subways down for a couple years, you know, who would want my apartment at that point? But if you start to think about, you know, how to diversify your risk, you're wondering, well, where should I go next? And what I found was that there were not nowhere was there a comprehensive list of questions or some answers that could help you find out the answer to the question of Where I might go next, that's safest. So, you know, that idea sat around for a couple of years. And then when the fires happened in California earlier this year, I came to work and Tara and I huddled, as we often do, and we decided we were going to start asking some questions and getting some answers.
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Well, Tara, was that really a big part of what pushed you to work on this, the guide? You started working on this shortly after the fires in Los Angeles.
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Yes, but it's. It's been an area of coverage of ours for years. You know, I remember a mom, a story back during Hurricane Sandy where I went to visit a homeowner in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. And she took me through her home and, you know, just seeing the damage, you know, on this kind of stony street in Brooklyn, it kind of, you know, brought it all home and it made, you know, just interested in the, in the, in the topic. She had what she called a sacrificial space. Like she had to, you know, basically sacrificed the entire first floor of her home, you know, to get insured to, to ensure that this wouldn't happen again. So it's always been an area of interest.
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What does that mean? She had to sacrifice that space?
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Like, she had to basically kind of look like a garage, you know, like it was going to. Anything that you put there was almost as if, you know, the homes that you see built on stilts on, you.
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Know, this is now not livable space.
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Yes, exactly.
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Okay. That's their version of this is the house on stilts down there is not livable space anymore.
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Right.
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Well, Ron, you write in the article, you mentioned this. Everything is diversification and risk. What does that mean in this context? We can't all buy five houses and hope that one of them survives. What do you mean by that?
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Well, I guess it starts for everyone with assessing the risk where they are and trying to come up with some sort of personal measuring stick, a scorekeeping mechanism where you can begin to assess whether your risk, whatever it is, and it can be different by the block. Right. Whether your risk is simply too high. And if you want to do something to diversify that risk or lower it, taking your single dwelling unit that you have, selling it and moving someplace safer. How did it define safe? And you know which parameters to use?
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How do you define safe? Right. Which location is the safest is a. Is a tough question. Lorraine in Nyack. Welcome to all of it.
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Hi.
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My house is a little less than a half a mile from the Hudson river. And I've read that it's okay to live by a river because with global warming rivers are going to actually be going down. And then I read other reports that say all waterways are going to be dangerous for your home. So I was just wondering what it is.
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Yeah, that's a. Tara, do you want to try to tackle that?
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It's tough. It depends on where your home is. Is your home located on a floodplain? Can you, can you find where you are on the FEMA map? And you know, that might give you a general sense of, of your risk. The, the interesting thing, the scary part is that, you know, there's a large percentage of floods that happen to homes that aren't on the flood maps. So even that is not a fail safe. But that's probably the first place that you want to look, know, has, has, or, and, and the area around it. Also, if you look up your home on, even on like a, a, a Redfin or a Zillow or the homes around you that may be for sale, there's a lot of data that's actually baked into real estate listings these days and a lot of it's supplied by a company called first street. And, and that can also give you a general sense of, of your current risk. Ron, do you have anything else you wanted to add to that?
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Yeah. Ron, are there any other resources that might be useful for Lorraine?
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Sure. I mean the interesting thing about first street is that they claim to be pulling in more data and coming up with predictions for future floods that are more accurate than what FEMA is able to do. Many of the flooded areas in recent storms and hurricanes have not been on FEMA's maps at all. And FEMA, which is part of the federal government, government says straight up that the maps are not necessarily always predictive. Given the cuts in Washington, who knows what's going to become of fema? One thing we should mention is that anybody who thinks they even remotely have some risk related to flood should look at getting federal flood insurance or even private flood insurance where it exists. It may not be perfect, it may be expensive, but buying the insurance as a whole, whole lot cheaper than packing up and moving someplace else.
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And Tara, this article features over 60 questions with answers related to climate change risk. What was your methodology? How did you come up with the questions and who did you speak to to research these answers?
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Well, I guess we kind of approached it as you would any reporting exercise, but I guess we kind of viewed this through the lens of buying a home, relocating and just starting from the very beginning and walking through each Step of the way, you know, location, location, location, and then moving along to the structure itself and the risks that could lie there. And you know, what you need to complete the purchase in order to buy a home, most people need a mortgage. If you need a mortgage, you need homeowners insurance. If you can't get homeowners insurance, then you can't get the mortgage. So there's a lot of. We just kind of took that natural progression and, and, you know, tried to fill in the blanks and just kind of brainstorm. Ron and I brainstormed with, you know, these dozens of questions that ended up, you know, to answer them required, I think, 10,000 words. Right, Ron? So, so that was our initial exercise.
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Well, let's get to more questions. There's more than just those 60 questions. We have questions coming in right now. And let's hear from Alex in Long Island City. Welcome.
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Hi, how are you? First big question is, thank you very much. And then I was wondering where your article is published. And then my question is, how about, like, now, I've been reading, I've been looking at, like, possible southern Vermont, but I've been hearing that they have so many dry spells now, their wells are drying out. So on the flip side of not having enough water, does that seem like something also to be, I guess, really concerned about?
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Thanks, Alex. This is Ron. If you do a search online for the headline how to Shop for a home that Won't be upended by Climate Change, you should be able to find it right quick. I'll tackle your water questions because I tackled the water questions in the story. This all begins with the question, well, where does the water from my home come from in New York City? We don't really have to worry about it about this much. You know, it comes from, you know, upstate a bit. And, you know, we've got some of the best drinking water in America. We don't have to worry so much or we haven't traditionally about droughts. Droughts and the faucets running dry. If you're in Vermont, there's a decent chance your water may come from a well. And so if you're looking at a property, you're going to want to ask for the most recent inspection papers from the well. You're going to want talk to neighbors about whether they've had issues with their wells. And yeah, you're going to want to think about how drought or potential drought could affect your water supply. You know, if the water happens to be from a municipal source, well, you know, what are the Long term projections for its quality and its quantity. What's the potential for neighbors, you know, industrial, agricultural or otherwise to pollute the water? What's the potential for neighbors to deplete the water? Right. You know, a data center moves in and it needs a bunch of water to, you know, for various cooling mechanisms, you know, and there are other questions. So, you know, in our story, we have a whole list of resources and links of places you could go. I get that this sounds exhausting.
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I was just going to say, you know, thinking of looking at buying a house and oh, hey, can you make sure that those bricks are fixed on the top of the chimney? And now let me research the future of water in the region for the next hundred years. That it's a lot.
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It's a lot. And we spent a lot of time and killed a lot of brain cells. Figure out how to point people to the, you know, to decent answers. But I mean, you know, this may well be the biggest investment you will ever make. You know, a home, if you own one, in many instances, is the biggest chunk of your net worth. And so how can you not ask the questions that you are already clearly inclined to ask? And you should ask a lot of questions. And if the real estate agent or the owner is squirrely or defensive, then, you know, all the more reason to double down on your questions.
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Tara, this, this is not just guidance for homeowners. Right. This is useful for renters as well. In fact, the article at some point says that renting may ultimately be the smartest long term play. Is that right?
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Yeah, I mean, if you're not responsible for the structure of the home, that's a big load off. But you know, as a renter, you still need to consider, you know, your risks. And for renters, it's going to be your belongings. But like most homeowners policies, renters insurance policies also may not cover all of the perils that you may be exposed to. So, you know, like with a homeowner's policy, renters policies often mirror that and won't cover floods. So you may need to get, you know, additional coverage or a special rider for that, for example. So it's, it requires a bit of research, but you can protect yourself with a rental policy, which is a lot easier than having to repair a home or in worst case scenario, rebuild a home.
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Right, Exactly. Okay, Tara, I have another question for you here. This is another text. Hi. My wife and I are considering buying a house on the south shore of Long island that is in a high risk flood zone. But is priced reasonably. So we're trying to weigh the risks. Is there a chance that we're going to not be able to acquire flood insurance?
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That is a distinct possibility. Or it's, it's just really expensive, so you need to find out. Well, the best way to go about it is to find an independent real estate, an independent insurance agents, because the market changes so quickly. It's so fluid. You know, carriers move in and out of markets, you know, depending on how much risk they're willing to carry at a particular moment of time. If they just took, you know, a ton of losses, you'll, you might see some even, you know, major carriers we've seen in California and other states kind of move in and out. So it's best to kind of pair with an independent agent who can kind of survey the marketplace, who really knows who is moving in and out at that particular moment and who might be able to find a policy for you. I haven't heard the reporting. Didn't, our reporting didn't really find as many people not getting insurance in New York as opposed to a place like the wildfire country in California or somewhere in flood country in Louisiana. But it is still really difficult. It might be more expensive.
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Ron, the first question in your guide is this one. Are there rules that dictate what I have to be told about climate risk or about a property's history? So tell us, are there, you know, do you have to be told about, for example, flood risk, flood history on a property?
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So this was an area of reporting that Tara tackled. I will preview this by saying that there are five states, New York is not one of them, that have a sort of buyer beware policy where sellers are not required to disclose all defects. You know, then the rules in, you know, quote unquote, safer states sort of depend on the jurisdiction. But Tara, do you want to weigh in further on that?
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Right. Yeah. Most home sellers generally disclose, you know, all their known material defects and anything else that might affect the value of the property, whether that's structural, mechanical, and a majority of states require them to disclose flood risks. But, you know, it's something that in working with a seasoned real estate agent, they might, you know, be able to tell you what the rules are in your area and, you know, what, what to look for, what questions to ask and, you know, make that list of, of questions and think it through.
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I mean, it does seem overwhelming, right, Ron? I know we, and just to wrap up here, Ron and Tara, let me ask you this question. According to your research, where you know, tell us where to go. Where are the least risky places to live as you try to plan for a future amid the reality of climate change? Tara, do you want to go first?
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Sure. Well, the Midwest, as Ron was saying earlier, Western Massachusetts. And you know, even in these high risk areas, you know, everybody's, a lot of people are, are attracted because of, you know, the, these spots where you're close to the city and, but you're also really close to nature. And it's, it's just a, it's a risk that you really have to weigh heavily. And you know, maybe you, the urban interface, the actual word is escaping me at the mom moment. But it's, you know, it's really popular in, in California, but those are the, the highest, you know, risk where, you know, you may not quite be all the way there. But yes, Detroit, I've, I've seen on many lists western Massachusetts. Ron, what do you have to add to that list?
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Interior Maine, you know, parts of upstate New York. But, you know, I guess one of the questions people have to ask themselves is what actually scares you most, right? There is an emotional component to this. You know, if you just can't stand the heat, like, I am just not a hot weather person, so, you know, that would personally play into it for me. You know, there's like a misery index element of this as much as a, you know, sort of catastrophic risk. You know, if you've had experiences of water scarcity and that's the thing that's most important to you emotionally, then you might want to be, you know, near one of the Great Lakes or, you know, some other place where there is abundant water and, you know, zero chance that anybody around you is going to, you know, SAP it in some way, shape or form. So, you know, much depends on the risk that you're looking to avoid. But, you know, one clear conclusion of the reporting is that there really isn't Anywhere that is 100% safe, but you may be able to get a lot safer than you are right now.
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That was our conversation with New York Times journalists Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Benard. Their recent guide is headlined how to Shop for a Home that Won't be Upended by Climate Change. And that is all of it for today. All of it is produced by Andrea Duncan Mao, Kate Hines, Jordan Loff, Simon Close Elle, Malik Anderson and Luke Green. Our intern is India Rice. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda, Jason Isaac and Amber Bruce. Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, catch up by listening to our podcast, available on your podcast platform of choice. If you like what you hear, please leave us a great rating. It helps people find the show. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here next time.
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A problem, you could say, just my luck.
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But you should say, like a good.
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Neighbor, State Farm is there and we'll help get you back in business. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.