Anthony Abraham Jack (3:53)

Thank you for having me, listeners.

Alison Stewart (3:55)

We want to hear from you. Were you in college when Campus shut down in 2020? What was that experience like for you? Were you someone whose challenges you faced trying to complete your school semester online? What school policies made your life easier or harder? Or parents? We want to hear from you. What did you not about your child's experience with college in the midst of COVID Give us a call, 2124-3396-9221-2433 WNYC. You can call or text to us at that number. Anthony, you tell a story from your own life about a time when you were a student at Amherst College over spring break and learning with dismay that the student dining hall was closed that week. Will you tell us what happened?

Anthony Abraham Jack (4:36)

Yeah, I start with there because when I got that email announcing that Harvard would close, knowing that other schools would be closing too, I thought back to my first spring break. When we got the notification, though, it was only like felt like hours before that all eateries would be closed. It's like they opened the gates to let us low income students in but forgot to keep the doors open. Because I learned over the time I researched that so many colleges just assume that students depart for fun in the sun during spring break. So they're like, oh, well we, well, most of our students just go home or they go camping or they go to Tulum or they go to someplace in Europe for backpacking, of course you're going to leave. Well, if you start inviting more lower income students, especially from Miami. I couldn't afford the tickets to go home, let alone during spring break, let alone any other time of the year. We stayed on campus and we made do. We made the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, lived off of ramen and I worked extra hours. But I'll never forget walking past the dining hall thinking that we still had access to something and the lights were out, but you could still see the trays that you normally would walk up to every day to get. But now there was a gate that was barring you from entry.

Alison Stewart (5:46)

Let's talk about your study. First of all, why did you decide to study the students at Harvard?

Anthony Abraham Jack (5:53)

I was a professor there at the time, and I was very much interested in looking at how a school that brings students from the top 1% and the bottom 10% on campus together. How are we helping all of our students through the most tumultuous time of their life, through all of our lives? When you think about a school that has so much diversity from people from different backgrounds, whether it's race, whether it's class, whether it's region of country, I was able to interview 125Asian, Black, Latino, mixed and native students to understand how universities were ignoring the very inequalities that Covid exacerbated. And that was very, very important to me to make sure I got a whole bunch of students to tell their stories so that we can learn from them and that we can actually change policy that's directly informed by their experiences.

Alison Stewart (6:46)

But I want to, you know, around 3.5% of students who apply to Harvard get accepted. Make the case that Harvard actually represents the average college student because it is such an elite university.

Anthony Abraham Jack (6:58)

Yeah, I mean, there's. The thing is Harvard is highly selective. And I do study elite schools, but I study them for a reason. I studied selective schools because those are the schools that have these no long financial aid policies. These are the schools that saying that we're going to admit you and money will no longer be a barrier to entry. And I actually want to show that's just not the case. Because right now we think that if you get into Yale, you get into Amherst, you get into Williams, you get into Harvard, that you've got the golden ticket, that you've somehow made it, that all of your worries are somehow done. But that doesn't stop the bill collectors from calling. That doesn't stop the rent man from coming by, that doesn't stop the food, the kitchen being bare when people are hungry. There is a lot of things that students need beyond financial aid that universities are ignoring. It is true that a selective school has a much more selective group of students. But I also want people to realize that not everybody who goes to those schools come from money. Right, Right. Selective schools are Barbell campuses. They have a whole bunch of rich students, very few students from the middle class because the cost of education in this country is far too high. And then you have the lower income students who are growing in number as universities adopt no loan financial aid policies or these programs that give significant financial aid. And so I want to actually show that if this is happening at the schools that students are not worrying about tuition, are not worrying about loans. What do we think is happening across the country?

Alison Stewart (8:31)

My guest is Anthony Abram Jack. The name of his book is Class Dismissed. When Colleges Ignore Inequality and the Students Pay the Price. Listeners, were you in college when campuses shut down in 2020? What were some of the challenges you faced while trying to complete the semester online? What school policies made your life easier or harder? Parents of former students, you can weigh in too. Our number is 212-433-212-4433 wnyc. So, so many students took part in this interview process. First of all, why do you think they took part in it? Why do you think they wanted to be interviewed?

Anthony Abraham Jack (9:10)

I think like many of us, we miss connecting. You know, this wasn't my first study. And I remember just sitting with students before and it was like the joy that students, even during the hard times of being on campus, finding friends, going to a study group, watching. I remember watching Scandal every Thursday night during my time as a graduate student. They were missing that. You can only get so much through watching social media. You can only get so much, but the ability to have someone who was interested in your story, your experience in that moment, a lot of students just felt a moment of connection and just needed to talk to somebody who was not a parent and sometimes a person who was not a friend because they just need to vent and say what was on their mind without feeling judged because so many people were alone. Even if they were living in crowded houses, even if they were on group trips to Spain, they still was that sense of loneliness and being this isolated individual during that time, you're able to.

Alison Stewart (10:16)

Conduct the interviews virtually, which meant you got to see a lot of students in their home. What did you learn from that?

Anthony Abraham Jack (10:24)

I learned a lot because it wasn't even just the zoom interviews, Right There was that social media aspect where I had once where you hear stories or you see the videos of students who say that Covid was your invitation to writ an Italian castle. And then you see the video of 14 or 15 other girls getting out of a Mercedes Benz truck and a collage of pictures of them twerking on tables. Wearing helicopter hats and different things like that during COVID because they had the resources to go. And then I'm also sitting with a student who shares me on their computer that they had to move into the foyer of their house because there was no other space. Because when they went home and the family had just moved, there was no place for them. This person was literally living in the foyer where anytime someone went to go take out the trash, go to the grocery store, or even just go outside for some fresh air, they had to pass her. There were so many students who had those quite drastically different experiences. That's what you saw. And the beauty and the pain of doing the interviews virtually is I had to return to it when I was writing the story. And it allowed me to return to the mom coming in and offering some pupusas. It returned, which was really cool to. To see it, to see someone like, you know, interact with their mother in that way. But it also returned to just like the sadness that was in their hearts. Right? You saw it written all over their face because they were so isolated, they were so tired, they were so hard for them to navigate. Being a Harvard student at home because of the demands of home contradicted and conflicted with the new responsibilities of Harvard. And so many students feel that duality. It doesn't necessarily have to be Harvard. The new responsibilities of being a student often conflict with the old responsibilities of home. And I saw that, and I want to capture that in the retelling of student stories so that universities can learn that when students come to campus, it's not just them, it's families coming with them. It's the responsibilities, it's the roles, it's the rules that come with them nestled next to their extra long twin sheets that you got to find at Marshall's.

Alison Stewart (12:56)

What question got these students. What question did you ask the students that gave you insight into what they were thinking? What was the one question that surprised you?

Anthony Abraham Jack (13:11)

The question that got me, the question that most surprised me was when I asked student, what was your first job and what did Covid closures mean for earning money? And what came of that is I was able to show by students answers is there's actually a class segregated labor market on campus. Because what I heard from wealthy students is, oh, well, I was able to keep working because I was a teaching assistant or course assistant or some kind of life of the mind position where you were working with a faculty member. Wealthy students told me, oh, my professor needed extra help. So he called me and I said, yes, I can Be your teaching fellow. Lower income students said they were uncomfortable pursuing those positions because there were no applications for them. You had to network for them. You had to schmooze and kiss butt for them. They were more likely to be in janitorial or working as a barista or working in a job that, quite frankly, when Covid closed, it disappeared. They needed the money, if not to keep the refrigerator full, at least not empty. They talked about what they owe their families and why they work so much. That simple question of what did Covid mean for earning money? Revealed that so many middle class and upper middle class students were more likely to be working with faculty, were more likely to be in positions that, yes, paid a wage, but also gave access to letters, recommendation, introductions to headhunters for companies, while lower income students reported being more likely in positions that were surface positions or manual layer positions that not only disappeared, but that only paid a paycheck. Right. Universities are where students go to learn, but universities are also where students work. And the fact that we have this separate and unequal tier of jobs that are gatekept by, you know, practices of who's. Who's comfortable going to a person's office hours and smoothing with them, that shows that there are things that were existent long before COVID that were a problem on campus that I am not able to expose because Covid made it worse.

Alison Stewart (15:27)

Yeah. One of the things I thought was interesting was the idea that professors would reach out to students they'd worked with. Hey, how are you doing? What can I do for you? Do you want to talk?

Anthony Abraham Jack (15:37)

Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart (15:38)

And just that simple. That simple conversation. What a correspondence means with a professor can mean so much.

Anthony Abraham Jack (15:47)

Yes. I mean, let's say, for example, right when students are going to college, and this is to all the students who are starting in a couple of days, you know, we expect students to come to office hours, but we always say when office hours are. We never say what they are. We never really explain how to use them or why they are important. Yes, they are time that faculty members are sitting in their office waiting for you to come to with questions and to talk. But they are also a place where mentor, where professors become mentors and advisors, and also where professors can become employers. Because one science professor, for example, one physics professor, can hire 20 students to work in her lab. One sociology professor can hire five students to work on their project. There are opportunities that are afforded to you if you know the hidden curriculum, that system of unwritten rules and unset expectations. But if we continue to leave things unsaid universities will continue to privilege, privilege and punish those who are from poor backgrounds.

Alison Stewart (16:54)

We're discussing Class Dismissed. When Colleges Ignore Inequality and Students Pay the Price. We're going to get to your text after the break. We'll have more with Anthony Abraham Jack. This is all of it. This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm speaking with Professor Anthony Abraham Jack, faculty director of Boston University's Newbery center and associate professor of Higher Education leadership. We're talking about his new book, Class Dismissed. When Colleges Ignore Inequality and Students Pay the Price. We're talking specifically about COVID I do want to start with this text because someone's pushing back a little bit. Here we go. As the parent of a new freshman at an Ivy League school, I'll say that this does not ring true. The people who are pushed out are the middle class. The wealthy have no trouble paying for all of it. The economically disadvantaged receive full rides, all kinds of programs that are free to them, including special summer orientations, pre orientations, tutoring, et cetera, all of it fully paid for. So this is someone who's talking about the barbell that you were discussing. The very advantage and the least advantaged.

Anthony Abraham Jack (18:08)

Yeah, she's right.

Alison Stewart (18:09)

Yeah. But she's saying that the middle.

Anthony Abraham Jack (18:10)

I'm in agreement. The middle class, the middle, the core middle class, especially those, you know, those individuals who cannot pay full freight and definitely cannot pay and not and do not qualify for, for full rights, are not only. They're not necessarily. They're pushed out because it's hard to even get in. We are approaching a time where three universities in the Boston area alone have a full year cost of over $100,000. And that is a sad reality of higher education at this particular moment. And so I'm actually in agreement. The fact that universities like Stanford universities are saying if you make less than $125,000, you will qualify for our no loan initiative. Princeton and Harvard also up their no loan cap from what started originally like at 40,000, now it's at 80,000 to not only capture more lower income students, but also more middle class families that cannot afford. Now, I think the difference in what the caller is highlighting is middle class on a college campus like Harvard means something very different than a middle class. And how we think about it in common parlance, when you think about the people who are there who claim to be middle class, they are actually upper middle class or very privileged individuals. And so that is within the context of the school, then how people identify. But the person is Actually, the parent is actually correct. We do need not only we need greater resources both at individual universities and from the government to support middle class individuals to pursue higher education because the cost of higher education is getting way too high.

Alison Stewart (19:54)

Let's talk to Thomas from Brooklyn. Hi Thomas, thanks for calling all of it.

Thomas (19:59)

Yeah, definitely. So I just graduated from Cornell. I entered in fall 2020 and I'll say I am from middle class, Long island, went to a public school in Suffolk county. And I completely agree with that previous text message and the point before that. So basically this hidden curriculum idea is very true. There's a lot of things and ideas that I did not and process I didn't know about and left me behind. Whereas my peers that went to private schools and had friends and older siblings already in these schools, they already knew all about it and from the get go were able to get ahead. And on top of that, the middle class idea is also very true for me personally.

Christina (20:42)

I was able to qualify about half.

Thomas (20:43)

Tuition, but that means I have to take out private loans for the other half because my family still couldn't afford it. And now I have loans, you know, up to 10% interest rates and I have like, you know, about $100,000. So it's very, very expensive and it's almost like, is it worth it?

Alison Stewart (21:03)

So Thomas, thanks for calling in. We really do appreciate you being candid with us. Let's talk to Christina from South Orange. Hi Christina.

Christina (21:13)

Hello. I just wanted to call in and speak about my experience as a university student. Student during the pandemic. I went into Seton Hall University here in south in the fall of 2019 and I was a low income student as well. So it was already difficult adjusting. But then I remember going, starting the spring semester, going on spring break, and two days after coming back, everything was like shut down and everyone had to leave. And that was just very difficult because I didn't come back to campus in person until my junior year, essentially missing out on most of what my typical college experience would be. But the kicker here was that during my first semester I got very active in the student life and it was difficult because I had to go from being a freshman trying to understand what a college experience was supposed to be like and do that for my student organizations that were on campus. But now trying to figure out how to do that in a hybrid method and really keep student life active and engaged while they were at home so we would be prepared to come back in person. And when we finally did, it was even more difficult because I found that A lot of my classmates and I were trying to recreate that one college semester in person, college semester that we had. And it was just very difficult for us to connect with our underclassmen as now upperclassmen, as, you know, as our older peers had done when we came in as freshmen. So I just wanted to kind of share that story.

Alison Stewart (22:56)

Thank you so much for sharing. Did you want to respond, Anthony?

Anthony Abraham Jack (22:59)

Yeah, I mean, these two. The comments about trying to recreate is just so important. And one thing that I highlight in the book is also how there were so many students who tried so valiantly to build community during COVID and also during racial unrest on campus that when they came back to campus as juniors, as juniors, they said, you know what, I'm tired. There were some people who withdrew from student groups or at least student leadership. I just highlight sometimes when we think about that, it's not only the building being connected, but it's also thinking about what is the consequence on students resumes for the students who would normally be on eboard, as many college students call the executive board of different student groups and being in student government. But they were so tired from trying to do it during Zoom, their resumes look very different from the classes before and after them. They're not going to have the same leadership. And so when companies and corporations who hire from these colleges look at their resumes, there can be questions about like, well, why isn't, you know, writing for the student newspaper or being president of this group or being part of this? Where are these normal things that we begin to see? I think we need to pay attention to the fact that we have to account or this gap as not being lazy as to. As not being lazy or not being interested, but actually just recovering from one of the most traumatic experiences of time. The first question, I think the reason why I do what I do is I will forever try to push universities to question what they take for granted about what students know and what students can afford. And yes, I want more financial aid to cover not only lower income students, but middle class students who are trying to make it in and with the rising costs, but also what we think students know. I always tell people, not only with office hours, but when you think about the word fellowship, there are some people who immediately think about going to Oxford or Cambridge or doing something like a residency. But then there are some people who think about church on a Sunday morning. The language in the academy is loaded and coded in ways that we must account for as we diversify our campus along class lines, especially Class lines. That's just something that's just very, very important to me because if we don't we're going to lose out on not just lower income students, but more and more middle class students whose parents did not have the same kind of residential experience that some of these campuses offer their children.

Alison Stewart (25:33)

Here's a text. I'm a college instructor and can attest that many of my students were a mess during COVID Those who are at home were largely disengaged and miserable. Those who are on campus were largely isolated and miserable. Extended several semesters past the height of things. I had many students withdraw from class last minute, request extensions based on their mental health status or fail classes altogether. There were students whose safety I was generally concerned about and I tried to support them as I could, but it was very challenging to do so. I would say it's only returned to quote, normal over the last year or so when students are worried about regular things like graduating with 100k in debt. How are students doing now? The students that you talk to.

Anthony Abraham Jack (26:17)

They'Re still struggling a bit and especially the students who are coming in. Because what I try to say in the book is that the inequalities that these students see from middle school to high school continue as they come to college. In some respects. I hope the book retires the metaphor of the college bubble and make universities realize that the connections to home remain. A lot of times students struggle, especially about mental health issues because of that tension that I talked about earlier between home and college. If we build out our resources to be able to help students, I think we will actually be able to Covid surface these things in a way that we could not ignore. I think now that we believe that we are far enough away from it now, it's like, okay, the worries about the specificness of COVID has declined and we are seeing like oh, what's my gpa? Am I going to get the right job? Am I going to graduate? But the things that still undercut the most vulnerable students experiences still remain. They may not be thinking about them in the same way, universities may not be thinking about them in the same way, but they're still there. And I think we need to make sure that we don't lose sight of what we learned about students home lives and especially their communities as we build out policy to support the new class of students.

Alison Stewart (27:39)

The name of the book is Class Dismissed. When Colleges Ignore Inequality and Students Pay the Price. It is by Professor Anthony Abraham. Jack, thank you for your time. A BetterHelp ad Louis Capaldi partnered with BetterHelp to get word out about how important therapy can be. I struggle most weeks to get myself up and ready and go to therapy or whatever. Even open the laptop to talk to my therapist. Sometimes can be really difficult, but I do it because I realise how important it is for me to continue to feel good.

Anthony Abraham Jack (28:13)

I felt the best I felt in.

Alison Stewart (28:15)

A long time through therapy. Learn more about online therapy@betterhelp.com Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.