How COVID Changed Work

Summary

All Of It: How COVID Changed Work – Comprehensive Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Episode: How COVID Changed Work
• Release Date: March 12, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators in discussions about their work and its cultural impact.

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "How COVID Changed Work," host Alison Stewart delves into the profound transformations the COVID-19 pandemic has wrought on work culture and office dynamics. Marking the five-year anniversary of the World Health Organization's declaration of COVID-19 as a pandemic, the discussion reflects on the myriad ways the pandemic reshaped professional lives across various sectors.

Guest Introduction: Jessica Gross

Alison Stewart welcomes Jessica Gross, a New York Times opinion writer and author of several books, including Screaming on the Inside: The Sustainability of American Motherhood. Jessica brings her expertise to the conversation, focusing on the intersection of work, parenthood, and societal changes precipitated by the pandemic.

Impact of COVID on Work and Office Culture

Reassessing Work-Life Balance

At [03:26], Jessica Gross explains that the pandemic prompted Americans to "reassess many things in their lives", particularly the amount of time spent at work. This period highlighted issues like burnout, especially among parents, and demonstrated that remote work could maintain, and in some cases, enhance productivity.

Remote Work Productivity and Evolution

Jessica emphasizes that while remote work was thrust upon many, it was already a growing trend. At [03:57], she notes, "A lot of desk work, white collar work... can be done in multiple places," suggesting that the pandemic accelerated an inevitable shift towards flexible work environments.

Challenges of Remote Work

Communication and Overcommunication

At [05:28], Jessica discusses the necessity of "over communicating" in a distributed workplace. Effective remote work demands deliberate and frequent communication to compensate for the lack of in-person interactions.

Adaptation Across Industries

She observes that certain sectors, like the tech industry, were better prepared for the shift due to their existing practices and younger workforce, who were more accustomed to virtual interactions.

Impact on Young and Early-Career Workers

Mentorship and Skill Development

Jessica highlights that the pandemic "was toughest on [young workers] in a lot of ways," particularly concerning mentorship and learning industry norms, which are harder to facilitate remotely ([05:44]).

Career Progression Challenges

At [06:29], she points out that navigating career advancement became more complex, with factors like AI integration adding uncertainty to job roles and expectations.

Work-Life Balance and Parenthood

Struggles of Working Parents

Jessica shares personal anecdotes about balancing remote work with childcare, illustrating the overwhelming nature of managing professional responsibilities alongside familial duties during the pandemic ([07:07] - [08:43]).

Notable Quote:

“...having multiple tasks in every minute that I am trying to... do this and... want to... it was so much in those moments.”
— Jessica Gross [07:34]

Exacerbation of Gender Disparities

At [11:32], Jessica discusses how the pandemic "exacerbated issues that women were already facing," particularly the disproportionate burden of childcare and domestic responsibilities.

Notable Quote:

“...the imbalance of it all... pushed some people to the breaking point.”
— Jessica Gross [12:44]

Re-entry to the Office and Hybrid Work Models

Shift Towards Hybrid Models

Jessica examines the rising preference for hybrid work arrangements, which blend in-office and remote work to balance productivity and personal well-being ([20:53]).

Notable Quote:

“...the office is actually very distracting... having that mix for many roles is ideal.”
— Jessica Gross [21:42]

Resistance to Returning In-Person

The discussion also covers resistance from some workers against returning to the office full-time, with Jessica arguing for flexibility and outcome-based evaluations over traditional presence-based expectations ([19:52]).

Notable Quote:

“...hybrid and remote work is just as if not more productive than full time in person...”
— Jessica Gross [19:15]

Listener Experiences and Perspectives

Throughout the episode, several listeners call in to share their personal experiences navigating work during and after the pandemic:

1. Alex from Orange County shares the challenges of conducting virtual presentations while managing young children, reflecting the common struggle of maintaining professionalism amidst chaos ([12:44]).

2. Danielle from Watchung, New Jersey discusses how the pandemic improved her husband's work-life balance, leading him to reassess his career priorities ([17:29]).

   “...Covid changed all that. It gave them a relationship that they didn't have prior...”
   — Danielle [17:29]

3. Linda from Manhattan, an actor, talks about the shift to virtual auditions, highlighting both the conveniences and the loss of community interactions ([21:42]).

4. Naomi from Springfield, an 80-year-old cello teacher and cancer survivor, describes the transition to online teaching, appreciating the close-up interactions but noting a decline in student numbers ([24:02]).

5. Jim from Manhattan, a theatrical lighting designer, expresses relief at returning to work but misses the collaborative in-person interactions essential to his field ([25:45]).

Notable Quote from Jim:

“...there's nothing that replaces all being together in the room to work on the project...”
— Jim [25:48]

Isolation vs. Collaboration

Jessica acknowledges the increased isolation many experienced due to remote work but advocates for a balanced approach that incorporates both remote flexibility and in-person collaboration to maintain mental well-being and effective teamwork ([27:08]).

Notable Quote:

“I really do think that you need a mix... flexibility and treating workers like adults will go a long way...”
— Jessica Gross [27:08]

Final Thoughts and Conclusions

As the conversation wraps up, Jessica urges employers to focus on "outcomes rather than... how the work is being done," promoting flexibility and adaptability in work arrangements. She emphasizes that the pandemic has provided an opportunity to "reassess the way things had been done," advocating for a future where work environments are more accommodating to diverse needs and lifestyles ([27:57]).

Notable Quote:

“I would like employers... to focus more on outcomes... and just sort of arbitrarily say full remote, full hybrid, full in person...”
— Jessica Gross [27:57]

Conclusion

In this episode of All Of It, Alison Stewart and Jessica Gross explore the multifaceted ways in which the COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the landscape of work. From the acceleration of remote work and the rise of hybrid models to the persistent challenges faced by parents and young workers, the discussion encapsulates both the struggles and the adaptive strategies that have emerged. Listener call-ins further enrich the conversation, providing personal narratives that underscore the diverse impacts of these changes. Ultimately, the episode underscores the importance of flexibility, communication, and a redefined approach to productivity in navigating the new world of work post-pandemic.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states. Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you are here. Today on the show, we'll speak with actors Christian Slater, Calista Flockhart and Cooper Hoffman about the new production of Sam Shepard's play the Curse of the Starving Class. And if you have a graduation, wedding or event where you need to give.

[Jessica Gross]

A little speech and it might need.

[Alison Stewart]

To include a little humor, we have you will will speak with the authors of a new book called how to Write a Funny Speech. And we'll hear from writer Sandy Frazier, who spent 15 years walking around the Bronx getting to know the borough, its history and its people. His book based on those walks is called paradise the Life and Times of New York's Greatest Borough, which is now a finalist for the 2025 Gotham Booker Prize and and a preview of our march get lit book, Mothers and Sons, with its author, Adam Hayslett. That's the plan. So let's get this started with Covid's effect on work and office culture. This week marks the five year anniversary of the week the World Health organization declared COVID 19 a pandemic. And we're reflecting on how Covid changed every facet of our lives. Today we're examining how the pandemic reshaped the way we work. It was five years ago this week that Professor Robert Kelly was on the BBC remotely talking about very important things when his kids burst in live on his international interview, so many people understood the terror in his eyes. Our next guest coverage of the pandemic included reports on the challenges of working parents, especially moms, almost a million of whom ended up leaving the workforce entirely due to school closings. Joining us today to discuss it is Jessica Gross, who is an opinion writer at the New York Times. She's also published several books, most recently Screaming on the Inside the Sustainability of American Motherhood. Jessica, welcome to the studio.

[Jessica Gross]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners, we'd like for you to get in on this conversation. Were you a parent working during the pandemic? How did you balance remote work while your child was at home? How has your work life changed since. Since the pandemic? Have you returned to the office? Are you fully remote? What do you feels different about returning to work after the pandemic? That's for both parents and non parents. Our phone number is 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Can call in and share your thoughts or you can text to us at that number or you can hit us up on social media at Olive nyc. Jessica, how do you think the pandemic shaped how Americans think about work?

[Jessica Gross]

I think it made them reassess many things in their lives, the shape of their lives, how much time they were spending at work. I think we saw, especially among parents, a lot of burnout. A lot of burnout that I think still hasn't been ameliorated. But I think we also learned that people can be incredibly productive working from home.

How did you. Do you think these changes would have happened anyway over time or do you think they really were the result of the pandemic?

I think they would have happened anyway over time, just much, much more gradually. A lot of desk work, white collar work, however you wanna put it, can be done in multiple places. You were already seeing before the pandemic disparate offices. So you would be talking to the London office and you're in New York or you're talking to the Chicago office. Everyone's talking at the same time. So it was already obvious that people could do collaborative work in multiple places. But of course it was a hard natural experiment that we all live through willingly or not live through.

Exactly what were some of the challenges or particular quirks that came with working remotely?

At first, I think people really needed to learn how to communicate effectively in a distributed workplace. So I had worked on distributed teams, which is sort of the jargon for teams in different places for over a decade. So I was sort of used to it. And you almost have to over communicate when you are not in person, be extremely deliberate, have times where you are meeting altogether, even if it is remotely. You just need to sort of shift your practices a little bit. And again, some places and some workforces did this better than others. I think the tech industry was obviously incredibly poised to shift into that mode because they had been doing it already to some extent for gen zers who.

Were just entering the workforce. They're a big part of the workforce. This was all they knew. They just graduated from college, they were 21 years old, now they're 26 years old. What effect do you think did the COVID pandemic have on their careers.

I really think it was toughest on them in a lot of ways. A lot of the early years of work in any industry are just sort of learning the norms, how to behave, getting direct mentorship, and that is much more difficult to do remotely. Again, it's not impossible, but a lot of things that you need to learn, you won't see that you need to learn them unless you're witnessing them with your eyes. So again, good management of young people, especially people who are new to an industry, when done remotely, it can be done, but it just takes so much more effort and so much more intention. So I do think it was hardest on those younger workers.

And now that they're entering the workforce hybridly, we'll talk about that in a minute. What challenges have they faced?

I think communication is a really big one. And learning to sort of be proactive. Those are two major ones that I hear from people who are managing early career folks. I think figuring out how to move up the ladder. I think there's other factors that are happening now. I think AI and nobody kind of really knowing how that is going to impact multiple different industries in this moment might be making employers a little skittish about what they're teaching and how they're teaching the newest employees. So that isn't pandemic related, but I think is another complicating factor.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's say how did people, if you can put on your memory cap, how did people balance being at home but also being at work?

[Jessica Gross]

Not. Well, in the beginning it was really strange.

[Alison Stewart]

It was really odd.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, and this is my particular area of expertise, but I think if you had caregiving responsibilities of any kind and you immediately had the structure of help, whatever that looked like, removed. So if you had small children, that meant daycare disappeared, school disappeared. If you were caring for elderly family members, whatever extra help you had coming in that just went away overnight. And so, you know, figuring out how to get through every day, I think again, especially in those first six months, was really challenging, especially for single parents. I heard from them a lot. I at least had the luxury of having a husband who, even though he had a full time job, we could sort of split shifts with our kids who were three and seven at the time. But I think if you were a single parent, it just was incredibly challenging and there was zero break, zero slack in the system.

We're looking back at five years of COVID and discussing how the pandemic changed.

[Alison Stewart]

The way we work.

[Jessica Gross]

I'm joined by the New York Times opinion writer Jessica Gross.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners, we'd love for you to get.

[Jessica Gross]

In on this conversation. Were you a parent working during the pandemic? How did you balance remote work while your child was at home? 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. This is for everybody. How has your work life changed since the pandemic? Have you returned to the office? Are you fully remote?

[Alison Stewart]

Are you hybrid?

[Jessica Gross]

We want to hear how your office has changed as well. Call in and share your thoughts. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692 or you can reach out on social media at Olive nyc. Let's talk about when they close the schools.

[Alison Stewart]

Mayor Bill de Blasio at the time, he said the city would move towards.

[Jessica Gross]

A remote learning model for all school days until spring recess. Oh boy.

[Alison Stewart]

And that students will not report to.

[Jessica Gross]

School buildings for instruction until Monday, April 20, 2020 or longer if necessary. That makes give me the shivers a little bit.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think was the biggest.

[Jessica Gross]

Issue with having the kids at home while you were trying to work?

I mean, just getting the mental space to fully concentrate when there was so much sort of noise and just actual tasks to do. I mean, my 7 year old was remote learning. And God bless every elementary school teacher in the country. I think it every day because I was terrible at teaching. We were terrible at teaching second grade. So it was the noise, it was the, you know, everyone had to get fed. It was just having the, you know, multiple tasks in every minute. So I always think of a moment from the summer of 2020 when I was listening to a work call on my earbuds and I was moving the laundry from the washer to the dryer and my kids were whining because it was noon and they were hungry. And I was just like, there are too many things in this one minute that I am trying to, it's no one can do this. But I also want to be clear, you know, there are so many essential workers who obviously could not work from home and, you know, had to figure out childcare, whether it was given to them or, you know, some family situation. And so I always want to be mindful of that as well and how really, really challenging that was for that first year, especially for those who work in healthcare, really worried about their own health, bringing things home to their children. I remember interviewing people who would talk about bas wearing a hazmat suit into work and having to come home and undress in the garage and then take a shower immediately just because they were so concerned. It's hard to remember how little we knew at the beginning. And so I think if you were doing that and then you also had caretaking responsibilities that just it was so much in those moments.

[Alison Stewart]

We'll talk about that Friday.

[Jessica Gross]

Oh, great. Essential workers.

[Alison Stewart]

A big, big important part of the story I'm curious about. You write about motherhood, you write about work. How did the pandemic experience exacerbate issues that women were already facing?

[Jessica Gross]

I think things like the mental load and the emotional labor that you're doing from home every day, but then just all of the sort of domestic work that women disproportionately do. I think it just was so glaring in those years when there was no way to get additional help, whether from family, friends, whatever, and the imbalance of it all. But actually a bright note, which I plan to write about in the next couple weeks, men really are doing more childcare since 2020, and that has maintained, and we don't know exactly why. When you look at time use studies, they have maintained. My optimistic loss on it is they spent a lot more time with their kids in 2020 and 2021, and they realized how great it was and how much they liked it because hanging out with your kids is actually awesome. So, you know, that's my optimistic look at it. But still, disproportionately, women still doing more childcare, even with men doing more. And in heterosexual relationships, I think just the sheer amount of things to do every day increased exponentially and really pushed some people to the breaking point.

All right, let's take a call. This is Alex calling in from Orange County.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi, Alex, you're on the air.

[Alex]

Hi, how you doing? Thanks for taking my call. So I was just saying, similar to what you guys have been discussing, I do presentations. I teach emergency preparedness. And during COVID we had to do most of it online virtually to schools and different organizations and sometimes actually with elected officials. And I remember having to do these presentations with kids who were at that time maybe three and four year olds, and my wife constantly chasing them around. And I was always terrified of somebody kind of like busting through the door, similar to that guy on tv. But we would always wonder, do you think they heard the kids screaming or you screaming? And then to be quiet on the recordings all the time, you would always wonder that. So it's kind of funny listening to you guys talk about it. It definite brings back those memories.

[Jessica Gross]

Thanks, Alex, for Calling. There was something about that clip about Robert Kelly speaking so profoundly and having his kids barge through the door that really spoke to people. What was it about that clip?

I think it was just so relatable. I mean, our kids are beautiful chaos monsters. And so I do think one aspect of the early pandemic at least, was a real understanding from many workplaces that their employees had lives, lives outside of work. And even though I do think in the past year we've seen sort of pushback from management against all this in ways that I find pretty depressing and are not actually data based, I think overall we have seen more understanding and embrace of people, sort of full lives. And the idea that, yes, sometimes you're gonna have an emergency with your children, and that's just part of being a human being.

I wanted to ask you about women leaving the workforce. That was a big issue between February and September of 2020. Something like 3% decline in women leaving the workforce more than men. What has happened to this segment of the population? Have they gone back to work? Have they not? Are they staying home with their kids? What's going on?

By and large, they have gone back a lot of. And that happened actually pretty quickly. The downside is a lot of them were going back without adequate childcare. So we're still not seeing child care at the levels that we did pre pandemic. There's not as many staffers. There's a lot of different reasons for that. Obviously, the pay is low. You know, childcare is a broken industry in many different ways. So, you know, the big X factor in which I think we need more research, is what was happening to their kids when they were coming back to work. And there was sort of an under investment and under resourcing in childcare that was worse than pre pandemic. And I did some reporting around that. And, you know, honestly, it was a lot of patching things together, leaving kids with neighbors, putting kids in daycare, situations that parents did not feel great or safe about. It was not so, you know, if you look at it one way, it's, you know, good that people are able to earn the money to support their families. But, you know, when you kind of peel back the surface of those, you know, statistics, which can be a little sterile, it was more of a mixed picture because, you know, it's childcare still, you know, and I don't have the latest numbers on it, but it didn't come back as quickly as women went back to work.

My guest is New York Times opinion writer Jessica Gross. We're looking back at five years of COVID how the pandemic changed the way we work. Do you work at home? Do you work at home now because of the pandemic? Or maybe you've returned to the office. We want to hear from you. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. How do you feel the pandemic changed the way you work? Call in and share your thoughts. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. We'll have more after a quick break. This is ALL OF it.

[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to ALL OF IT on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In studio with me is New York Times opinion writer Jessica Gross. We are looking back at five years of COVID and discussing how the pandemic changed the way we work. Let's talk to Danielle from Watchung, New Jersey. Hi, Danielle. Thanks for calling all of it.

[Danielle]

Hi, thanks for having me. I just wanted to comment on the point that was made a moment ago about hoping that men enjoyed spending more time with families during COVID and that has perhaps changed how much parenting they do and say that that was the case for my family. My daughter was 3 when Covid happened. And prior to that, my husband would leave for his choice, but just the career that he had chosen. He left for work before she got up in the morning and would often come home before, after she went to bed. And Covid changed all that. It it gave them a relationship that they didn't have prior because of his work life. And he has since reset his career goals and his priorities in order to, you know, in order to keep up the parenting and the relationship that he developed during COVID And, you know, it has changed his life.

[Jessica Gross]

That's lovely.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

I was gonna get your thoughts on that.

Yeah. I mean, I think people really reassessed in a major way. It gave them a moment to say, is my life working for me? Is my balance of work and family working for me? And, you know, a lot of people moved. A lot of people moved to be closer to family. And remote work enabled that. Again, I am sad to see so many companies in our federal government say we need to be 100% in office when. And all the data I have looked at show that hybrid and remote work is just as if not more productive than full time in person because a lot of people really reorganize their lives in a way that was more sustainable for them.

We've got somebody who pushes back on that, this comment says once the height of COVID passed, I was disturbed by continued complaints that employers had the nerve to ask us to return to the office again, even though once Covid dangers had generally waned. Fact is, we enter into agreements when we take a job. They give us a salary and benefits in return. And what do they ask of us? Sure, employers can learn to give workers more flexibility, but there's nothing wrong with employers expecting us to be at our place of employment. We have been doing it this way for decades. Without thinking it cruel of employers to.

[Alison Stewart]

Expect this of us.

[Jessica Gross]

I guess I would say we've been doing it for decades isn't necessarily a good reason to do anything. If by that logic we would still be using typewriters and I would still be, you know, we'd have a whole department at the New York Times where people were cutting out pieces of paper and you know, things evolve, the technology evolves that allows workers more flexibility. Now, again, every job is different. Every workplace is different. There are absolutely kinds of work that need to be done in person. There are occasional in person touch points that absolutely need to happen even in full remote offices. I think there is real value to being in person together at some points. But butts in chairs nine to five, well now it's usually like eight to seven, five days a week.

Why you've spoken with several people who believe in the hybrid work week that this spending a few days in the office. Why does the hybrid model seem to be seem to be the preferred one?

I think because it gives you that mix when those in person touch points, meetings, things that just get done better and faster because they are done in person, you can have those happening, but you can still cut out a commute a couple days a week and get those hours back to yourself. But also to do work more productively. I've heard from so many people that the office is actually very distracting. You have people interrupting you, you have meetings that could have been an email sometimes to do serious concentrated work. Being in a quiet, protected environment is actually allows for greater efficiency. So I think having that mix for many roles is ideal.

Let's talk to Linda, who's calling in from Manhattan. Hi Linda, thanks so much for calling all of it.

[Linda]

Hi. It's an interesting conversation. I'm an actor and Covid completely changed the way that we get work. Our admission process completely shifted to taping yourself in your apartment with your own camera and your own backdrop. We no longer go in person. And the upside is that, you know, you can do the audition on your own time and do it as many times as you want to, like what you're sending in. But the downside is we just don't get the feedback we used to get from the casting directors. We don't get the same community of seeing each other in the rooms that we used to see each other in. But it's something that's, I think, made life easier for them. And I don't think the in person auditions are going to come back. So it really shifted everything.

[Jessica Gross]

This text says I'm a pediatric speech pathologist and I saw all my kids remotely while my first grader did her schoolwork upstairs. And my two year old played at my feet. A little piece of me died when she asked why I was being so nice to the kids on the screen. The silver lining is that my husband was home because he works at a theater and was unemployed. Having all that family time was really kind of amazing. Thank you, Karen, for writing in. You know, as we're talking about office culture and people sort of coming back, how is it reorganizing itself? Cause it doesn't quite look the same to me. Five years later. The office isn't quite the same.

Yeah, I mean, I think different industries are handling it differently. I think some places are really trying to use a carrot effect and saying, oh, we're giving you these new amenities and these new, you know, rooms and food and whatever. And other places have not really adapted at all. Some places it's sort of. They're requiring people to come back, but they don't even have a place to sit, which doesn't seem like the best move. Like the best move. And it makes it seem sort of arbitrary. So I think we're sort of seeing all over the map.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Naomi, who's calling in from Springfield. Hi, Naomi. Thank you so much for calling all of us. It.

[Naomi]

Hello. I love your show.

[Jessica Gross]

Thank you.

[Naomi]

So I am a cello teacher and I had students that came to my house. But when Covid came, I decided to teach online through Facebook or Facebook video or not Zoom Too Complicated or FaceTime. And I had as many as 11 students, and now I have two. I lost a whole bunch of them, maybe four this year because they're now going to someone's house and the teacher comes to the house and she just teaches one after the other. And I'm a little bit sad about that, but I haven't made a big play. I'm 80 and I'm a cancer survivor and I love my students. I might get one More this week. And I love the ability to see them close up and to have a relationship with them where their parents don't have to drive them and wait on the couch and pick them up and all kinds of reasons for not having a lesson. So I love it. I love it. But I know, I know that. And I've gotten my kids into New Jersey Youth Symphony, and they're very talented. Some people say, well, if you don't have hands on, then you're not going to teach as well. Well, I haven't. I haven't had that experience. And I have a sister who was a symphony player and had as many as 55 students a week. And she likes teaching in person. And although I like it, there are definitely benefits to seeing a child's fingers close up on FaceTime.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Jim calling from Manhattan.

[Jessica Gross]

Hi, Jim, thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

[Jim]

Hi. Thank you very much. I'd like to follow up with what I guess it was Linda said. I'm a theatrical lighting designer. And for me, of course, I didn't work for two years. So the biggest change was that work came back, which was a blessing. I thought I might have to retire. That's the first change. And then second change is I feel that, well, of course, the audiences haven't come back nationally as well as in New York. And that's kind of threatening the, at least the American institutional theater now. And I find in preparing productions, we used to have production meetings in person and all gather together to plan the production. And now I find that we do much more of it on Zoom. And some of that is useful and economical and a good idea. But there's nothing that replaces all being together in the room to work on the project that you're working on. And so I miss that often in the preparation time, Jim, then we have to come together, of course, to do the work.

[Jessica Gross]

I appreciate you calling and I'm so glad you're working again. This text says at the same time as we talk about productivity from work, from home, we also need to talk about the dangers of increased isolation that Americans are experiencing. There's no collaboration better than in person interaction. What do you think about that?

I think that's right. I really do think that you need a mix. I think being alone in your house endlessly, obviously we saw that that was not great for a lot of people in 2020 and 2021. But again, I just do think overall flexibility and treating workers like adults will go a long way and is the best way to have a successful work environment, whatever that looks like. And it's hard to say hard and fast rules for every industry, since the tasks that need to be done and the way that they're done is so different.

If you had one thing you'd like people to keep in their minds as they head back into work remotely, whether it's hybrid or whatever your mixture is, what would you want them to keep in mind?

I would like employers, since they hold the cards, to focus more on outcomes than they do necessarily on how the work is being done. Because if you're seeing that the work is worse because people are not together, well, that's absolutely something to look like. But just to sort of arbitrarily say full remote, full hybrid, full in person, I just think, you know, if nothing else, I would hope that what happened in 2020 allowed us all to reassess the way things had been done.

Jessica Gross is a New York Times opinion writer. We've been discussing five years of COVID and how it affect affected the way we work. Thank you for coming to the studio. We really appreciate it.

My pleasure. I love being here.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

WNYC Studios is supported by Carnegie hall, which presents the Cleveland Orchestra with Franz Welsermust and soprano Asmit Gregorian performing works by Haydn, Strauss, Janacek and Puccini. March 18. [e-mail] Skipping cold and flu season is.

[Jessica Gross]

Plan A, but if you do get.

[Progressive Insurance Ad]

Sick, be prepared for Plan B with Kleenex lotion tissues. Kleenex lotion tissues moisturize skin, helping prevent the added discomfort of red, irritated skin on top of your cold and flu symptoms. So this cold and flu season, grab Kleenex lotion tissues. Visit kleenex.com to learn more and buy.

[Jessica Gross]

Now for whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex.