Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode: How Do You Solve a Problem Like Penn Station?
Date: December 17, 2025
Host: David Fuerst (in for Alison Stewart)
Guests:

• Patrick McGeehan (Reporter, New York Times)
• Michael Kimmelman (Architecture Critic, New York Times)

Theme:
This episode dives into the perennial struggles and debates around New York City’s Penn Station — its failings both as a transit hub and as a civic gateway, why it remains broken despite countless proposals, the tangled web of agencies responsible, and what must happen to finally bring meaningful change.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What’s Wrong with Penn Station? (Starts at 02:20)

• Patrick McGeehan assesses Penn’s performance as “maybe three or a four on a scale of one to ten.”
  • "It's overcrowded. It's way beyond capacity, what it was built for. It's not very clean. It's not modern. ... It's underground is part of the problem." (02:47, McGeehan)
• Michael Kimmelman notes the loss of the original, grand Penn Station:
  • "Transit hubs are also the gateways. ... The previous Penn Station famously was one of the grandest buildings in New York, really one of the grandest buildings in America." (03:24, Kimmelman)
• The destruction of the original station galvanized the landmarks preservation movement, but the new (current) Penn has never met the city's needs or civic identity.

2. Commuter Experiences and “The Pit” (05:29)

• NJ Transit’s “Pit”: Crowding, confusion, and track assignment chaos.
  • "A lot of people call the area there the Pit, because ... it just becomes one big clot of people who would rather be almost anywhere else." (05:29, McGeehan)
• Amtrak vs. NJ Transit/LIRR:
  • Moynihan Train Hall is an improvement, but it's "mostly ornamental" since it serves mainly Amtrak. Most Penn users endure the older, inferior facilities.
    • "It's a beautiful train hall, but most of the commuters aren't going through it at all. They're still going through the old Penn Station, which is sort of the brunt of the problem." (07:03, McGeehan)
• Listener feedback:
  • Many call Penn Station “depressing” and lament the decision to construct Madison Square Garden above it—a move some see as irredeemable short of total reconstruction.

3. Why Is It So Hard to Fix? The Governance Maze (10:29)

• Complex Ownership and Control:
  • Amtrak owns the building but is only responsible for a fraction of the users.
    • "So the main users of the station are two other railroads, ... but they're tenants of Amtrak... and there's been very little cooperation among those railroads, just essentially the bare minimum to keep the thing operating." (10:44, McGeehan)
• Multiple bodies (Amtrak, NJ Transit, Long Island Rail Road, MTA, MSG) make coordinated action nearly impossible.
• Federal role:
  • Recent federal involvement hasn't yet broken the gridlock.
    • "They can just crack heads, right? ... They can take control. But as Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, has said to them, okay, if you're in charge, let me know when you've built me a new train station." (12:03, McGeehan)

4. The Role of Aesthetics vs. Function (15:44)

• Kimmelman on civic value:
  • "One can't really separate out the aesthetics from the rest of the conversation. ... Grand Central is an example ... the arrival in Grand Central says something about us and about ... the aspirations of the city." (15:58, Kimmelman)
• Beauty and efficiency should not be mutually exclusive and signal the city’s values.

5. Accessibility and Safety: A Daily Struggle (17:35)

• Disability perspective (Listener Maria):
  • Using the station with mobility aids is “terrifying.” Rush to trains is unsafe; elevators are insufficient.
• Patrick McGeehan:
  • "She’s right. There’s all kinds of accessibility issues at Penn Station. It’s not a modern building in any way. ... It’s sort of survival of the fittest on a daily basis there." (18:26, McGeehan)
• Red Cap Service:
  • Listeners mention a valuable but underpublicized Amtrak service for those with mobility needs; not replicated for NJ Transit.

6. The Gateway Project & Capacity Challenges (20:10)

• Everyone agrees: Additional rail capacity is needed, especially for Hudson River crossings.
• Gateway Project:
  • New tunnels would double capacity, but the station itself currently can’t handle more traffic.
  • "The problem is... there's no place to put them ... you'd have to increase the number of tracks ... or change the way the trains run so that they pass through the city…” (21:03, McGeehan)
• Real progress will require cooperation among state agencies with little history of working together.

7. Structural Constraints (27:49)

• Madison Square Garden:
  • Steel support columns for the arena above create narrow, crowded platforms below.
    • "All those columns that break up and crowd the platforms were holding up Madison Square Garden ... people just get used to it." (28:03, McGeehan)
  • Most platforms can only accommodate one boarding or exiting train at a time, slowing everything.

8. Barriers to Change and Signs of Hope (29:08)

• Kimmelman’s Optimism (with caveats):
  • "We need to squint a lot, to be honest. ... It's part of a larger conversation that’s happening ... about these problems that have become endemic." (29:28, Kimmelman)
  • Recalled how even legendary projects like the Brooklyn Bridge seemed impossible and scandal-ridden during construction — but became icons after completion.
  • "If we remain vigilant as New Yorkers about following through and demanding it, who knows?" (31:17, Kimmelman)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "It's overcrowded. It's way beyond capacity, what it was built for. ... It's underground is part of the problem."
  — Patrick McGeehan (02:47)

• "Transit hubs are also the gateways. ... The previous Penn Station famously was one of the grandest buildings in New York, really one of the grandest buildings in America."
  — Michael Kimmelman (03:24)

• "The truth is, they shouldn't be [separating functionality and aesthetics]. ... Grand Central is an example of this. Why do we value Grand Central? Because the arrival ... says something about us and about ... the aspirations of the city."
  —Michael Kimmelman (15:58)

• "It’s sort of survival of the fittest on a daily basis there.”
  —Patrick McGeehan (18:26)

• "All those columns that break up and crowd the platforms were holding up Madison Square Garden... people just get used to it."
  —Patrick McGeehan (28:03)

• "We need to squint a lot, to be honest. ... If we remain vigilant ... who knows?"
  —Michael Kimmelman (29:28)

Important Timestamped Segments

• 02:20 — What’s wrong with Penn Station? (Functional and aesthetic critiques)
• 05:29 — Commuter experiences: "The Pit" and track chaos for NJ Transit
• 07:03 — Moynihan Hall: improvements, but only for a few
• 10:29 — Governance maze explained: Who’s really in charge
• 12:03 — Federal government’s position and ongoing gridlock
• 15:44 — Grand Central vs. Penn: Why beauty and function matter
• 17:35 — Accessibility woes: Perspectives from commuters with disabilities
• 20:10 — Gateway Project: Future of rail capacity and through-running vs. terminal models
• 27:49 — How Madison Square Garden’s columns worsen crowding
• 29:08 — Signs of hope and reflections on big American infrastructure projects

Listener Perspectives and Broader Themes

• Large numbers of listeners called/texted in to vent frustrations, particularly around accessibility, lack of seating, inadequate restrooms, and the nighttime atmosphere.
• Callers and hosts referenced how Penn Station’s failings are now so legendary that they create a shared civic identity: almost so bad that New Yorkers love to hate it.
• Continual theme: Despite technical solutions existing, only political will and public cooperation can make change possible.
• Accessibility solutions (like Red Cap service) exist but are fragmented—and not extended to all users.

Summary

This lively episode exposes Penn Station as a symbol of New York’s infrastructural ambitions and failures. The discussion is honest about Penn’s daily indignities—filth, overcrowding, chaotic track assignments, and inaccessibility—while also detailing why decades of plans have yet to yield a real fix: overlapping authorities, the literal and political foundation of Madison Square Garden, and chronic underinvestment. Yet, as both reporters and callers emphasize, meaningful change requires not just money or vision, but consensus, clear authority, and civic will. The episode ends with a note of hard-won optimism: while the Penn Station saga is a national cautionary tale, it also holds the potential to become a model for renewal—if New Yorkers collectively demand, and stick with, that transformation.