How Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson Navigated the Red Scare

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson Navigated the Red Scare"

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Howard Bryant, author of Kings and Pawns: Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America
Date: January 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the intertwined yet sharply divergent legacies of Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson, illuminating how both men navigated the highly charged era of McCarthyism and the Red Scare. Howard Bryant, a veteran journalist and sports historian, discusses his new book, which re-examines their roles as cultural and political symbols amid Cold War paranoia and America’s ongoing struggle with race.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Re-centering Paul Robeson’s Legacy

• *Robeson’s Multidimensional Talents:
  Bryant stresses Robeson’s towering achievements as an athlete, lawyer, opera singer, actor (notably as Othello on Broadway), and activist ([02:00]).

  “Paul Robeson himself, just a giant of an American, an unbelievable talent... one of the greatest college football players of all time, he played in the National Football League. He's also a lawyer, opera singer, all of the things. Othello. Othello, exactly.”
  — Howard Bryant [02:00]

• Integration Beyond Baseball:
  While Robinson famously broke the color barrier in MLB, Bryant notes Robeson was the first Black actor to lead a Broadway show with Othello in 1943, highlighting parallel but often underappreciated breakthroughs.

2. Generational & Geographic Context

• East vs. West Coast Upbringing:
  Robeson (East Coast, Princeton, under Woodrow Wilson’s segregated federal policies) and Robinson (West Coast) had different geographic and generational frames, shaping their attitudes towards America ([02:52], [04:13]).

  “The resentment that he had felt was always greatest when he had achieved and that he had known that he was expected to not compete, that white America did not expect to compete with us.”
  — Howard Bryant [05:38]

3. The Red Scare’s Impact on Black Leaders

• From International to Domestic Suspicions:
  Bryant draws parallels between mid-century anti-Communist fears and current-day rhetoric around enemies within ([06:23]).

  “This period is domestic. And this period sounds very much feels a little bit more like today, where we're talking about the enemy of the people. And the rhetoric back then was the enemy within, this idea of subversion, of domestic subversion. And that's where the country really turned against Robeson.”
  — Howard Bryant [06:23]

• Black Loyalty on Trial:
  The House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) sought to use Black leaders as political pawns, pitting Robinson as the acceptable loyalist against Robeson, the radical dissenter ([07:38]).

  “The idea of taking Robeson and Robinson and placing them in front of HUAC…the most notorious government bodies ever assembled, was really the idea of pitting, you know, finding that one black American to criticize the other.”
  — Howard Bryant [07:32]

4. Integration and the Double-Edged Sword for Black Athletes

• Robinson as Both Symbol and Pawn:
  Despite his immense symbolic value, Robinson was left largely isolated in MLB’s integration. By 1949, only a handful of Black players had followed him ([17:52]).

  “…on opening day 1949, there are seven Black players in the league, and five of them play for either the Brooklyn Dodgers or the Cleveland Indians. And so he's disillusioned that there's no progress...So you can start to see his own disillusionment as well.”
  — Howard Bryant [19:48]

• The Weight of Representation:
  Both men were weighed down by the expectation to represent, defend, or critique America in ways white counterparts were rarely asked to do ([21:23]).

5. Hidden Histories: The Baseball Owners Meeting & Missing Encounters

• Previously Unknown MLB Owners Meeting:
  Bryant reveals the importance of newly unearthed meeting minutes from 1943, detailing Robeson’s direct appeals to MLB’s all-white ownership about integration, and Branch Rickey’s pivotal role ([11:36]).

• Robeson & Robinson Never Met:
  Surprisingly, the two men never met face-to-face. Robeson’s son recounted that his father refused to seek Robinson’s autograph to avoid making Jackie’s position more precarious, given Robeson’s “toxic” reputation at the time ([14:44]).

  “How could these two giants, who were both in Harlem, they never met...because Robeson was so toxic at the time, and because the times were as dark, he said that he felt he would be making Jackie's job harder if he were to associate, to be seen with him.”
  — Howard Bryant [14:44–15:50]

6. The 1949 HUAC Testimony & Its Fallout

• Why Robinson Was Chosen:
  After Robeson’s (misquoted) Paris speech expressing skepticism that Black Americans would fight against the Soviet Union, Robinson was called to publicly counter him in front of Congress ([17:39]).

  “The black person who's willing to criticize another black person publicly will have a job for life. He's set up for this. Right? ... He felt a loyalty to Branch Rickey, who really is the one who put him up to it...He felt an obligation.”
  — Howard Bryant [17:52–18:48]

• Aftermath for Robeson & Robinson:
  While Robinson’s testimony didn’t ruin Robeson’s career (already under attack), it isolated him further, emboldening his enemies inside and outside the Black community ([20:10]). Violent retaliation followed—most notably, the Peekskill Riots, and the government’s seizure of Robeson’s passport.

• Long-Term Disillusionment:
  Robinson, who believed he was paving the way for others, ended his career frustrated by the slow pace of change and persistent accusations of disloyalty ([09:18]).

7. Legacies for Modern Athletes & Entertainers

• Continuity With Current Political Stakes:
  Bryant draws a direct line from Robinson and Robeson to figures like Muhammad Ali, Colin Kaepernick, and Bad Bunny, highlighting the persistent expectation that Black (and now Latino) celebrities take public political stances ([21:23]).

  "It's a continuum...this idea, once again, that the African American athlete has to take on this responsibility..."
  — Howard Bryant [21:23] “Malcolm X...would say this is not our role...these entertainers as puppets because it's so hard to be able to be asked to do something that is maybe beyond your skill set but wasn't beyond Paul Robeson's. He could do anything.”
  — Howard Bryant [22:11–22:34]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Paul Robeson himself, just a giant of an American, an unbelievable talent...”
  — Howard Bryant [02:00]

• “The Cold War is not black history. The Cold War is considered American history. And yet you have these two giants in the center of it.”
  — Howard Bryant [07:50]

• “I've done everything this country has asked me to do and now you're calling me a communist.”
  — Howard Bryant [09:18]

• “He felt a loyalty to Branch Rickey, who really is the one who put him up to it...[but] he was all by himself...”
  — Howard Bryant [17:52–19:48]

• “Robeson and Robinson, did they interact? … they never met.”
  — Host/Howard Bryant [14:41–14:58]

• “Malcolm X...would say this is not our role, that he would refer to these athletes and these entertainers as puppets...but [it] wasn't beyond Paul Robeson's [skill set]. He could do anything.”
  — Howard Bryant [22:11–22:34]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction to the book and guests — [00:31–01:48]
• Robeson’s legacy and accomplishments — [02:00–02:36]
• Segregation, radicalization, and generational divide — [02:52–05:55]
• The beginnings of the Red Scare and internal loyalty fears — [06:23–07:50]
• Integration as both symbol and burden for Robinson — [09:18–10:18]
• Robeson’s secret meeting with MLB owners — [11:13–14:41]
• The never-met revelation and why — [14:44–15:50]
• Robeson's status as "toxic" in the movement — [15:53–17:20]
• Details of the 1949 HUAC hearing and its cynicism — [17:39–19:59]
• Aftermath of testimony and further isolation of Robeson — [20:10–21:10]
• Linking past and present athlete activism — [21:23–22:11]

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Tone and Style

Bryant’s explanations are direct, clear, and blend historical detail with moral complexity. The episode maintains a reflective, analytical tone—sometimes somber, often urgent—emphasizing the stakes of history and its repeating patterns.

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For those who haven't listened, this episode is a deep exploration of the burdens shouldered by Black leaders during the Cold War, the mythologies that obscure their deeper stories, and the unresolved tensions in Black (and now broader) American leadership under scrutiny. Bryant’s book and this conversation provide vital context for today’s ongoing debates over who speaks for America—and at what cost.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The book titled Kings and Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America transports readers Back to the McCarthy era, politics, a brewing cold war and a racially segregated nation. Take Major League Baseball, which operated under a, quote, gentlemen's agreement barring black players from its teams. That is, until Jackie Robinson stepped onto the field. His ascent to fame after breaking the color barrier in America's most patriotic sport place him in an uncomfortable position with another great black American, Paul Robeson. Robeson was a lawyer, an actor and a political activist committed to pointing out America's flaws, even though, as we learn in the book, Paul Robeson had advocated for the inclusion of black players in the league just four years earlier. Kings and Pawns was written by Howard Bryant, the author of more than 10 books, and he served as NPR Weekend's edition sports correspondent. Publishers Weekly says the book astutely demonstrates personified black Americans internal conflict between patriotism and protest. Kings and Pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America is out now. And tonight there is a talk at the Jackie Robinson Museum not that far from here at 6:00pm welcome back to the show, Howard.

[Howard Bryant]

Alison, good to see you.

[Alison Stewart]

So when we're thinking about their legacies, these two men's legacies, what is often overshadowed or overlooked that you wanted to correct with this book?

[Howard Bryant]

Well, I think one of the things that I really wanted to highlight was Paul Robeson himself, just a giant of an American, an unbelievable talent, as you were saying, in addition to everything you said before, one of the greatest college football players of all time, he played in the National Football League. He's also a lawyer, opera singer, all of the things. Othello. Othello, exactly. And as we talk about Jackie Robinson integrating the major leagues in 1947, Paul Robeson integrated Broadway in 1943 with Othello and to this day, still a record 296 performance performances for a Shakespeare production.

[Alison Stewart]

Wow. So it's interesting, in reading part of your book, it hit me that Paul Robeson grew up on the east coast and Jackie Robinson on the West Coast. How did that affect the way they thought about America?

[Howard Bryant]

It's a great question, and I haven't really thought of it that way. In terms of it, I think the way that I really considered them was the generational connection, the generational that Robeson is 21 years older than Robinson and when you have this collision in 1949 where they are in their lives. Paul Robeson is at one point is the most famous black man in the world in terms of his reach. And Jackie Robinson in 1949 is the hope of what is possible in segregated society. But Robeson has already. I think one of the things that really had bothered me in terms of the narrative had been that Jackie Robinson had destroyed Paul Robeson's career. That was not true. Robeson had already coming out of World War II, this country was changing, getting deeper into the Cold War, into loyalty ills, all the things that sound very familiar today. Loyalty oaths, an attack on American patriotism and citizenship. Robeson had really begun to ratchet up his criticisms of the violence against black soldiers coming out of World War II. In addition, his politics were very much anti capitalist. They were very much socialist. He had been affiliated friends and had a lot of connections with the far left and Communist party and such. And this country turned on him.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's interesting that you said the 21 year difference, if you put that with the East Coastness of him growing up in Princeton. Right. Which is where they used to send the Southern sons up.

[Howard Bryant]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Host]

And everybody knows about Princeton. And how was it? It was Woodrow Wilson was the president and it resegregated everything in the federal government. Yeah. And that really affected him 100%.

[Howard Bryant]

And that is the thing people say, what radicalized you? Well, growing up in Princeton radicalized him. And Robeson was such a phenomenal character in that. I love the similarities between the two men because the question that I had asked when I was working on this with both of them was where did it come from? Where did that toughness come from with Robeson? Absolutely. He attributed it to his father. We backed down from no one. And growing up, when you think about his politics, the way he talked about growing up in Princeton and then of course later, Somerville, New Jersey. But in Princeton, it was very, very clear that the black class was supposed to be the permanent underclass. And even for all of his greatness and all of the school and Rutgers that he made famous, all of the things that he had done, one of the things that he had said in his phenomenal autobiography, Here I stand in 1959, that the resentment that he had felt was always greatest when he had achieved and that he had known that he was expected to not compete, that white America did not expect to compete with us. And when he did, even though he made everyone around him better, he could feel the resentment.

[Interviewer/Host]

The name of the book is Kings and Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. In the preface you write, America, in the summer of 1949, was consumed by fear, convinced it was being culturally and politically infiltrated by agents of the Soviet Union. Yet the sentiments of the McCarthy era had been building for years. So, Howard, how did the United States arrive at a moment when citizens were questioning one another's loyalty?

[Howard Bryant]

Yeah, it's really fascinating because as a. I mean, I consider myself of the Cold War generation. There's no question about that. But for me, the Cold War had always been international. It was the Olympics. It was the USA versus the Soviet Union. It was the 1980 hockey team, and it was the day after, and it was the missile gap and all of that. But this period. This period is domestic. And this period sounds very much feels a little bit more like today, where we're talking about the enemy of the people. And the rhetoric back then was the enemy within this idea of subversion, of domestic subversion. And that's where the country really turned against Robeson. And. And that's where you look at Jackie Robinson, who at that time is the most famous black American in the country, and this beacon, supposedly, of what was possible for black America and all Americans, even in a segregated society. And so the idea of taking Robeson and Robinson and placing them in front of huac, the House UN American Activities Committee, the most notorious government bodies ever assembled, was really the idea of pitting, you know, finding that one black American to criticize the other.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's interesting. Let's pull out for that for a second. What typically fell under suspicion for being unpatriotic, and how did these fears ripple through African American communities?

[Howard Bryant]

Liberal politics, mostly. And I think that we. You feel that the attack on universities, which sounds familiar, the attack on the arts, which sounds familiar. The idea that the Soviet Union is now your enemy coming out of World War II and after they were allies, this idea that your citizenship is in question if you are not 100% radicalized against the Soviet Union, whereas African Americans are concerned. One of the things that I really loved about working on this was we spend so much time talking about black history as if it's history over in the corner. And instead, the Cold War is not black history. The Cold War is considered American history. And yet you have these two giants in the center of it. And the real thing that brought the black story into this is integration. And it was fascinating to me working on this, how Jackie Robinson was asked to defend the United States, defend black loyalty, defend the virtues of this country. And then just a few years later, once you have Brown vs Board of Education and now black people are asking for rights, now they're the ones being called communists. It's the same labeling. And that was one of the things that really, really hurt Jackie. I've done everything this country has asked me to do and now you're calling me a communist.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. He wouldn't go to games after that for years.

[Howard Bryant]

That's right. And that was one of the real parts of the book that I was really sort of focusing on, which was how do you have this man who once again is considered one of the. He is one of the great symbols. And let's not forget, as much as we talk about sports, let's not forget baseball integrated before the military. Baseball integrated before corporate America. Baseball integrated before a lot of schools. So this is not a small thing. And how can he. And he stood up and was considered by many, many people told him not to testify in front of huac. And he felt an obligation to do it. He felt he had an obligation to black America to do it. How does he, by the end of his life feel so completely disillusioned? That was one of the things that I really wanted to get at because we spend so much time talking about April 15, 1947 as being this moment where everything changed. What did it do to him? What was the story? It made everybody else feel great, but what did it do to him in his day to day?

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about kings and pawns. Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. My guest is Howard Bryant. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.

[Interviewer/Host]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Howard Bryant.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's written a new book called Kings.

[Alison Stewart]

And Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ahead of his Talk tonight at 6pM the Jackie Robert Robinson Museum, you note in your book.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm going to read it from the book. You say for.

[Interviewer/Host]

For 73 years, the official minutes of the meeting between Paul Robeson and the owners of the 16 major league teams sat in the possession of the commissioner's office, leaving historians at the mercy of incomplete newspaper accounts offering second and third.

[Alison Stewart]

Hand speculation on what was actually said.

[Interviewer/Host]

Within the secret halls of power. In 2017, Major League Baseball donated the ledgers to The National Baseball hall of Fam and Museum in those letters was Paul Robeson's. A meeting Paul Roseman had with those 16 leaders.

[Alison Stewart]

What did he want to say to them?

[Howard Bryant]

It's such a wonderful. As a researcher, you just can't wait to find something like, wait a minute, this is available. And for years, these hadn't been available. And so there's this great ledger that's up in Cooperstown, and you open it up and you see all the old baseball names. We've all wondered for years what was said at that meeting and who was there and what took place. And it's so funny when you work on this title, this sort of double and triple entendre of a title, Kings and Pawns. Who's the pawn? Well, at this moment, the reason why Paul Robeson was brought to the winter meetings to meet with the baseball owners is because he's the famous Paul Robeson. Two months earlier, he's integrated Broadway with Othello. He's the hottest man in New York. But what's actually happening is the double V campaign the black press has engineered, the Victory Abroad, Victory at Home campaign, which was to say, we want our rights. And there was nobody who was more of a target for violence than a black person in uniform in 1943, 1944. And so the black press is planning a Protestant of the Major League Baseball owners to force them to integrate, to put pressure on them. So they bring Robeson. They bring Robeson into the meeting, sort of as a flanking maneuver. Not. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, he's the one being treated as the one who's protecting baseball's interests. And he gives a great speech, and he gets a standing ovation. And then by the end of the meeting, everyone wants to adjourn. And one voice in the meeting says, are we going to address what he just said? What he just said, what took place here? You know, this black delegation, which had never been, you know, had never addressed the owners before, and no one wanted to talk about it. And then this voice brought it up again. And that voice is Branch Rickey. And this is, you know, the president of the Brooklyn Dodgers, who eventually integrates the game with Jackie Robinson. It's the first moment where you can see that Ricky's up to something. And until those minutes were made available, we never quite knew. And that was one of the other things about writing this book that I interviewed, enjoyed so much, was the Branch Rickey version of the integration story is the only version that's ever been that we Followed, it's gone almost completely unchallenged. And this was a really wonderful opportunity to talk about the complexity, the fact that New York, Brooklyn especially, hotbed of labor, hotbed of progressive politics, real hotbed of progressivism. They were the ones really forcing Branch Rickey in Brooklyn. Even more so than the New York Giants who played up in Harlem, and more than the Yankees who played in the Bronx. It was Brooklyn where the real pressure was being placed. So as much as Branch Rickey, yes, wanted to integrate, because he had his moral, you know, his moral imperatives, he was really. He was being pressured by forces. And a lot of those forces were very much pro. Robeson did.

[Interviewer/Host]

Robeson and Robinson, did they interact?

[Howard Bryant]

That's the other piece of this that I just couldn't believe. And I have been sweating for the last four years to find something to the contrary. How could these two giants, who were both in Harlem, they never met.

[Interviewer/Host]

They never met.

[Howard Bryant]

They never met. And I was stunned by this. I mean, usually fame meets fame. Fame always crosses paths at some point. But the closest explanation was Paul's son, Paul Robeson Jr. Gave an interview to ESPN years ago where he had said he had asked his father for Jackie Robinson's autograph, and Paul Robeson refused. And because Robeson was so toxic at the time, and because the times were as dark, he said that he felt he would be making Jackie's job harder if he were to associate, to be seen with him. So by that account, it was on purpose. It was Paul Robeson protecting Jackie Robinson from any of the negative press that Robeson was getting at the time. But it's stunning to me that those two had never met.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why was Robeson, quote, unquote, toxic at the time?

[Howard Bryant]

Because of his progressive politics, because of his associations with the Communist Party, because he was not going to back down from those politics or from those associations, and also because he was at odds with the black establishment, with the Urban League and the NAACP that really wanted to be the only voice when it came to civil rights. Robeson and W.E.B. du Bois were on their own. Robeson, in 1946, met with President Truman to stop the lynching of black soldiers. And Truman essentially told him, oh, it's not really a good political time. And so. So you're dealing with a real forceful character here. So in addition to his international politics, he's also an extremely powerful voice domestically. And that really, in a lot of ways, put him at odds with a lot of the black leadership who felt that you can't conflate the two that Our allies, if we are associated with communism, if we are associated at all with the Soviet Union, the allies that we have for civil rights are going to abandon us. And a lot of the black leadership turned on him by saying, listen, you are hurting our movement by essentially being a pawn of the Soviet Union. And so it's really fascinating.

[Interviewer/Host]

He didn't care, though.

[Alison Stewart]

He gave a speech.

[Howard Bryant]

Gave a speech and didn't care.

[Interviewer/Host]

He didn't care.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Howard Bryant]

And what I loved about it was that this is a story of tactics. And then, of course, then you have Malcolm X years later, who comes in and says, no, the real pawn and this was the black establishment looking for a love and looking for a respect from people who were never going to give it to you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's talk about the 1949 hearing. Why was Jackie Robinson asked to testify at this time in front of houac?

[Howard Bryant]

Because Paul Robeson's voice was just too big.

[Interviewer/Host]

It was too big.

[Howard Bryant]

Enormous. Well, he gives a speech in Paris and he's misquoted by the Associated Press. But. But what comes across to the United States on April 20, 1949, was Robeson being quoted as saying, it's unthinkable that the negro people would fight against the Soviet Union in the event of a conflict, in the event of a war between the two. And so the right wing forces here, the House and American Activities Committee, immediately, they're like, that voice needs to be parried. Whose voice could actually match the same. Who's got the same stature of a Paul Robeson? And it was Jackie Robinson. And of course, it had to be somebody black. And so, so cynical. So cynical. And at that. But once again, and we say the same thing today. I mean, I've been saying this, you know, the black person who's willing to criticize another black person publicly will have a job for life. He's set up for this. Right? And so. But here's the thing about Jackie as much, and people implored him not to do this, that Huck was a bad people. You know, it's really the UN American Activities Committee. It's not. You don't want to be associated with these folks. He felt implored to do it. He felt a loyalty to Branch Rickey, who really is the one who put him up to it. He would later say in his memoirs that he felt that if white people believed that blacks were disloyal, then we would lose our support and it would set the movement back. So he felt an obligation. But here's the thing about Jackie Robinson in 1949, it's four years after Branch Rickey has signed him in his own sport. Baseball has really not integrated. He's all by himself, and he's supposed to be this beacon. And yet on opening day 1949, there are seven Black players in the league, and five of them play for either the Brooklyn Dodgers or the Cleveland Indians. And so he's disillusioned that there's no progress. You brought me here. I'm supposed to be the first of many, and yet here I am by myself. So you can start to see his own disillusionment as well. And by the time he retires after the 1956 season, three baseball teams still haven't integrated. The Detroit Tigers, the Philadelphia Phillies and the Boston Red Sox.

[Alison Stewart]

Never mind any black managers.

[Howard Bryant]

Black managers would come three years after he died.

[Alison Stewart]

What happened in those days after he testified?

[Howard Bryant]

Well, one thing that has been very, very clear is that Jackie Robinson did not destroy Paul Robeson's career. Paul Robeson's career was already on the downside the previous years. I mean, he'd lost a lot of concert dates. But what Jackie's testimony did do was it unleashed the forces, the negative forces that were already against him. Felt very much emboldened now, and especially because you had another black person and you had the NAACP also abandoning Robeson now. It was sort of open season now. It wasn't a racial thing. It was like, even the black leadership is not going to defend him. So he was isolated. And what that did for five weeks, five and a half weeks after Jackie's testimony, you have two famous, infamous, bloody riots in Peekskill, New York. And then within a few months after that, the United States government refuses to issue Robeson a passport. And so they hold his passport. They essentially have him under house arrest for almost a decade.

[Alison Stewart]

As we wrap up here, what are the similarities in how you see black American athletes and entertainers navigating careers and their political stances today?

[Howard Bryant]

It's very similar, I feel. And it's really interesting, too, in 2026, because this is going to be the 10th anniversary of Muhammad Ali's death, who sounded very similar to what Paul Robeson was saying in the 1940s. It's a continuum, this idea, once again, that the African American athlete has to take on this responsibility than the athletes, the entertainer, the artist, has to take on this responsibility. It's the same continuum. It's going to be the 10th anniversary this year of Colin Kaepernick taking a knee in August. And so what has passed as prologue.

[Alison Stewart]

As you're saying that I'm also thinking to myself, I'm thinking of, well, it's Bad Bunny now.

[Howard Bryant]

Exactly.

[Alison Stewart]

Who's got to take that role? There's also other artists who are Latino who have to take that role currently.

[Howard Bryant]

Well, that's right. And everyone's watching. And the hard part is, and I sort of listened to what Malcolm X would say is he would say this is not our role, that he would refer to these athletes and these entertainers as puppets because it's so hard to be able to be asked to do something that is maybe beyond your skill set but wasn't beyond Paul Robeson's. He could do anything.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the book is Kings and Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. It is by Howard Bryant. He will have a Talk tonight at 6pm at the Jackie Robinson Museum. Thanks for coming in.

[Howard Bryant]

No, it's my pleasure. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

Coming up, we'll continue our full bio conversation with Amanda Vale, the author of Pride and the Schuyla Sisters in the Age of Revolution. Today's sister Angelica. She was intellectual, fiercely independent and unafraid to marry a man who her father disapproved of. That's next, right after the break.

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