How to Bounce Back from Losing Your Job

Summary

Episode Title: How to Bounce Back from Losing Your Job
Host: Alison Stewart
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Podcast: All Of It by WNYC

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the profound impact that losing a job can have on one's personal identity and sense of self-worth. Featuring Samita Mukapadai, author of The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, the show explores the intricate relationship between work and identity, the challenges of career transitions, and the diverse ways individuals navigate the aftermath of job loss.

Guest Background: Samita Mukapadai

Samita Mukapadai is a writer and editor who experienced a life-altering job loss that propelled her into a deep personal and professional transformation. Her book, The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, examines how contemporary work culture shapes individual identities and the costs associated with relentless ambition. An excerpt from her book, titled "My Job Was My Life, Then I Got Fired," serves as the focal point of this episode, sparking insightful discussions and heartfelt listener stories.

The Intersection of Work and Identity

Samita Mukapadai opens up about her own journey, detailing how being fired from her role as an editor led to an intense identity crisis. At [03:10], she reflects:

“Work was something that I believed and valued above everything else and really just fundamentally thought that it came at the cost of having good health, a personal life, and having time for your family. And so to me, work was a great sacrifice that for the pride of knowing that you're good at your job.”

Her narrative underscores how deeply intertwined her sense of self was with her professional achievements. Mukapadai discusses the psychological turmoil that followed her dismissal, describing feelings of depression and anxiety as she grappled with her diminished self-worth.

At [06:09], she shares:

“I had a bit of an identity crisis. I went into a pretty deep depression. I started suffering from very intense anxiety attacks...when that was threatened, I didn't really have a foundation to stand on because I don't know that I necessarily believe that I was valuable without the kind of external validation.”

Listener Calls: Diverse Experiences of Job Loss

The episode features multiple listener calls, each sharing unique experiences of being fired or laid off and how these events redirected their life paths.

Christine from Long Island ([09:27]):
Christine recounts her unexpected layoff from a cardiology practice, which ultimately inspired her to specialize in diabetes and establish her own practice. She highlights a silver lining in her career shift:

“Had that not happened to me, I probably still would have been doing nuclear stress tests under cardiologists.”

Joanna from Dobbs Ferry ([13:00]):
Joanna shares her relief upon losing her job as a dental hygienist, which allowed her to find a more fulfilling position working for a dentist she admired:

“...one of the offices became corporate and they just put more and more stuff on, and I was trying to do my job...and I was like so happy in the end.”

Brian from the Upper West Side ([13:52]):
Brian discusses his strategic departure after being laid off, emphasizing resilience and the pursuit of personal happiness:

“I'm eight years into now having my own small business, doing exactly what I was doing, but making the money for myself...I've never been happier.”

Scott from Red Bank, New Jersey ([24:43]):
Scott contrasts his experience in the blue-collar trades with his friends in white-collar jobs, illustrating the varying impacts of layoffs across industries.

Emily from Brooklyn ([27:42]):
Emily reflects on her transition from a tech job to becoming a published novelist, underscoring the potential for creative reinvention following job loss:

“I shifted my view of work from this career-driven climb the ladder to more of a day job where I collect a paycheck and pursue what I actually love on the side.”

Insights from Samita Mukapadai

Throughout the episode, Mukapadai provides profound insights into the cultural constructs surrounding work and success:

1. The Valorization of Hard Work:
   At [07:31], Mukapadai critiques the societal emphasis on work as inherently virtuous, questioning whether this belief always serves our well-being:

   “We've convinced ourselves that work brings us more value and more good than it necessarily always does.”

2. The Importance of Boundaries:
   Reflecting on her tenure as an executive editor, Mukapadai emphasizes the need for setting personal boundaries to avoid over-identification with professional roles:

   “I would probably put a little distance between me and the overall success of any type of project I'm working on...because we can't take on every single thing that we're kind of managing in these environments.”

3. Generational Shifts in Work Perception:
   Discussing generational differences, Mukapadai notes how younger generations are redefining success and advocating for more equitable workplaces:

   “Younger generations aren't really putting up with that. And so you see that they're agitating a lot more for equitable workplaces...much more comfortable with the language of boundaries.”

4. Handling Anger and Resilience:
   Addressing the complex emotions following job loss, Mukapadai acknowledges the legitimacy of anger and the necessity of separating personal identity from professional setbacks:

   “I still get angry. I think that's okay. It's something that's deeply unfair...but once you start to remove yourself a little bit from how important that job is to your identity, you get less and less angry.”

Conclusion: Redefining Success Beyond Employment

As the episode wraps up, Samita Mukapadai reflects on the broader implications of job loss in contemporary society. She expresses concern over the potential for individuals, particularly women, to self-select out of opportunities due to systemic barriers and the emotional toll of workplace challenges. Mukapadai advocates for a cultural shift towards valuing personal well-being over relentless career advancement, encouraging listeners to seek fulfillment beyond their professional identities.

Her closing thoughts resonate with a call to action for listeners to redefine success on their own terms, fostering resilience and self-compassion in the face of career adversities.

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Notable Quotes

• Samita Mukapadai ([03:10]):
  “Work was something that I believed and valued above everything else...it was a great sacrifice that for the pride of knowing that you're good at your job.”

• Samita Mukapadai ([06:09]):
  “I had a bit of an identity crisis...I don't know that I necessarily believe that I was valuable without the kind of external validation.”

• Christine from Long Island ([09:27]):
  “Had that not happened to me, I probably still would have been doing nuclear stress tests under cardiologists.”

• Joanna from Dobbs Ferry ([13:00]):
  “...one of the offices became corporate and they just put more and more stuff on, and I was trying to do my job...and I was like so happy in the end.”

• Brian from the Upper West Side ([13:52]):
  “I'm eight years into now having my own small business...I've never been happier.”

• Samita Mukapadai ([07:31]):
  “We've convinced ourselves that work brings us more value and more good than it necessarily always does.”

• Samita Mukapadai ([21:46]):
  “I still get angry. I think that's okay. It's something that's deeply unfair...but once you start to remove yourself a little bit from how important that job is to your identity, you get less and less angry.”

Final Thoughts

All Of It masterfully weaves personal narratives with critical analysis, offering a multifaceted exploration of how job loss can serve as both a crisis and a catalyst for personal reinvention. Samita Mukapadai's candid discussions, combined with the diverse stories of listeners, provide a nuanced understanding of the complex emotions and societal pressures surrounding work and identity. This episode serves as both a mirror and a guide for anyone navigating the turbulent waters of career transitions and the quest for self-worth beyond professional achievements.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Potential savings will vary.

[Alison Stewart]

Not available in all states. Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Samita Mukapadai]

This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I am grateful that you are here. On today's show, we'll speak with Max Miller, creator of the YouTube channel called Tasting History, which is now a cookbook. It covers everything from Roman dinner etiquette to what passengers ate on the Titanic. While talk about it, we'll also learn about the history of New York City's Ward's island, which author Philip Yano says has been used as a, quote, institutional dumping ground. He's researched its history and he joins us to talk about it and we will take your calls. Plus, singer songwriter Samia will be here to perform live in WNYC Studio 5 and preview her new album which comes out next week. That's the plan. So let's get this hour started with the balance between your job and and your identity. Today we are talking about the F word. Fired food writer and, excuse me, writer and editor Samita Mukapadai was working on everything until one day she got fired. Afterwards, Samita felt lost, upset, even depressed. She realized how much of her identity and self worth were tied up in her job. She writes, I have long been in a prison of my own ambition, stuck without a narrative for moving forward. I'm slowly starting to find my way out, but it means accepting that success looks different than I thought it would. She writes about this experience in her book from 2024 called the Myth of Making It a Workplace Reckoning. The Cut published an excerpt that has been making the rounds. Writer and editor Sumita Mukhopadai joins me now. Hi Sumita.

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Hi Alison.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you been fired from a job? What experience? That teach you about your relationship to work? What got you through it? Did it set you down a different career path or even a better life path? How did your work life change after being fired? We want to hear from you. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. You can call or you can text that number. This is a no judgment zone by the way. Text 212-433-WNYC so your piece starts with a negative performance review. Now, before this performance review, how would you describe your relationship with work?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Work was something that I believed and valued above everything else and really just fundamentally thought that it came at the cost of having good health, a personal life, and having time for your family. And so to me, work was a great sacrifice that for the pride of knowing that you're good at your job.

[Samita Mukapadai]

What did being successful look like to you at this point?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

For me, you know, it was less about money because I think that's often, you know, when people talk about I want to be successful, they're talking about high paying jobs. For me, it really what mattered the most was doing work that felt really impactful, that felt like it was aligned with my values and what I believed in, and that I was getting to manage a team and be part of a bigger conversation. And that was what excited me at the time.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Up until this point. If someone had asked you how much do you think your identity is wrapped up in your job? What would you have said?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

My work was who I was, or I had completely bought into the idea that if you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life. And so it wasn't even that I would, I didn't even see a differentiation. I was a feminist writer and I was personally, you know, just that, the embodiment of that person. So however that looked in the workplace, it was a, you know, I took a lot of pride in what I did. I very much identified personally with my own journey, with the obstacles that I had overcome. And, you know, and it's a very seductive narrative, right, to say that I, you know, overcome all the, all these obstacles. I was told I couldn't do this, and look at me, I could.

[Samita Mukapadai]

So let's go back to that negative performance review. First of all, how did you think you were doing in your job?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

You know, I kind of knew something was off. I think we often know, right? Like we have a sense that something, something's not, not, not fully landing. But, you know, I was working in an environment that didn't have a lot of transparency. So I didn't have a really clear line into how, how I was doing. I hadn't gotten a ton of feedback prior to. And I'm just one of those people that really prides herself in being liked, which is another trap that a lot of women fall into in the workplace. And so not only did I feel that I was effective and I was good at what I did, but that people liked me. And so if people like me, why would they ever give you a bad performance review? They like you. Right? So I, you know, I knew something wasn't right and I could sense that the company was going through transition, but I don't think I fully understood where I sat in all of that. I kind of assumed because I was so self sacrificing, I would be sacrificed.

[Samita Mukapadai]

You took a few weeks off of work after this negative performance review. What were you thinking about during this time?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

It wasn't a great time for me. I, you know, had a bit of an identity crisis. I went into a pretty deep depression. I started suffering from very intense anxiety attack. And you know, as, as I write in the essay, I had some pretty negative thoughts about, you know, my own future on this planet, I guess we could say. And you know, and I, and I think some of that was a result of how hard I had been working, that I was deeply burned out and that so much of my identity was caught up in this idea of being successful in this job and being valued. And so much of my self perception was in that value that when that was threatened, I didn't really have a foundation to stand on because I don't know that I necessarily believe that I was valuable without the kind of external validation. And so, yeah, I definitely went through a pretty dark period where I didn't know what was going to come next for me. I didn't know where I was going. I didn't really know how I would recover or really show my face. A lot of shame came up, which I think a lot of people experience when they have basically, you know, lost something that they really value.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Why do you think many people tend to place so much significance on their jobs?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

I think it's a neat little trick that's been played on us. We have to work, right to survive. There's very few people that don't have to work. You know, most of us have to figure out how to survive in some capacity. And I do think that, you know, in the last like 30 or 40 years we've really been sold this idea that work is a net good. Working hard is valuable. And I'm saying this, and I don't necessarily disagree with it either. I do think hard work is valuable and I do think that, you know, getting invested in things you care about is a, is part of having a meaningful life. But I do think that we've convinced ourselves that work brings us more value and more good than it necessarily always does. I think the tide is changing on this and so we've kind of, you know, had to talk ourselves into loving what we do. How else could you sacrifice so much? Right? How else can you take that call after, you know, putting the kids to bed and have, you know, cleaning up after dinner? How else could you convince yourself to wake up at 6am to answer those emails before the morning rush other than to genuinely believe that you're doing something that's good and you're doing something that's right.

[Samita Mukapadai]

My guest is Samita Mukapadai. We are discussing her piece in the Cut called My Job Was My Life, Then I Got Fired. It's an excerpt from her book the Myth of Making It A Workplace Reckoning. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you been fired from a job? What did the experience teach you about your relationship to work? 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. Did it set you down a different career path or life path? How did your work life change after being fired? 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air or you can text us at that number. By the way, this is a judgment free zone. Let's talk to Christine from Long Island. Hi, Christine, thank you so much for making the time to call all of it. You're on the air.

[Alison Stewart]

Yes, hi. Thank you so much for giving me some time. I absolutely love this topic because it absolutely changed my life. When I lost my job in 2009, I was working as a brand new nurse practitioner right out of school for a cardiology practice on Long island. And I was doing about 15 to 20, maybe even 25 nuclear stress tests a day. And with the downturn in the economy in 2009, a lot of insurance companies were no longer reimbursing the cardiology practices at the same rate. So we went down to about 10 to 15 at best, stress tests a day. So I wasn't really worried about my job, but I think that's the reason why I lost it. I was one of two nurse practitioners and I was making a lot more money than the other nurse practitioner. So two of the cardiologists and the office manager came in to see me one day and said, we're going to have to let you go. And I was like, why? And they were like, well, we can't really discuss that, but you're doing a fine job. I knew it was because I was making a lot more money than the other nurse practitioner. So I found myself looking for another job. And although I did really love doing cardiology, it put me down the path for diabetes, which is a far, far more necessary specialty. So I ended up continuing on. I became certified in diabetes. I got my doctorate at Stony Brook University in diabetes Prevent. And in 2020, I opened up my own diabetes practice. So had that not happened to me, I probably still would have been doing nuclear stress tests under cardiologists.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Thank you so much for calling. Christine, you go. I have a question. Samita.

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Yep.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Being let go or being fired, did it matter to you?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

No, Technically, I was laid off. I mean, I wasn't even actually fired, but the way that I metabolized it, I was fired. I took it as a rejection of who I. The value I brought.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Yeah. Use the word failure a lot in the piece. What was your relationship to that word?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

You know, Alison, I had a good relationship to that word because I, I got. I failed a lot in my life. And I, you know, part of why, you know, I, I was a little bit of a late in life success story. I, I really struggled academically, I struggled to find my footing, to find what my career would ultimately be. And I didn't have things figured out until. Until, you know, I was a little bit older. And so I had a lot of anxiety around failure because I knew I associated it with an earlier time in my life that was much harder and much more confusing. And I thought I overcame that. You know, I'm not the girl that got the D in English class. I'm not the girl that, you know, I had turned my life around. And so I think failure is something that I take very personally. And, you know, that's not necessarily always fair because if you'll read any business book, any part of a successful person's journey is quite a bit of failure and an ability to be resilient in the face of that failure. And then I also think there's an additional pressure. You know, I am. My parents are from another country. They immigrated to the United States. And so the stakes felt a little higher in terms of they came here for me to be successful. And then what? Look at me. I'm not, Right. So what does that say about my ability to kind of live in their shadow and their ability to be successful in America?

[Samita Mukapadai]

Let's talk to Joanna, who is calling in from Dobbs Ferry. Hi, Joanna, thank you for calling, all of it. You are on the air.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you for having me. I got fired from three different jobs. I was a dental hygienist. I still am. And I was upset at the time, but in retrospect I was exceedingly pleased because now I have. Now I'm very, very happy. I'm 70 and I'm going to retire soon. But I found the best dentist to work for. I'm a dental hygienist. And I was just so tired of not being able to do my job properly and following protocol. One of the officers became corporate and they just put more and more and more and more stuff on and I was trying to do my job and I would just go in and go in and go in. And then I got fired and I was like so happy in the end.

[Samita Mukapadai]

We're going to stop you there. Thank you so much for calling Joanna. We wanted to get to Brian who's calling in from the Upper west side. Hi Brian, thanks for calling all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi Alison, thank you so much for this topic. It is a big one and I'm nearing my eight year anniversary of getting fired. I was laid off. Fired. Same thing to me. I left. But here's the thing. I was at the end of my I knew it was coming. You could sense when it's coming. I was like, I feel like all my allies were fired. My head was next on the block. My CEO flew up from Atlanta. He came to my office, we talked. He laid me off the last day of May. I got up, I hugged him. I said, thank you so much. I hate working here. I was like, I need a reason to leave. I said, can I leave right now? He said, yes. I said, really, I could leave right now. And he goes, yeah. I got up, grabbed my bag, walked out and went. Had a margarita. I loved it. And on the other side, I'm eight years into now having my own small business, doing exactly what I was doing, but making the money for myself, working with the clients that I want to work with to help people live healthier, happier lives. And I've never been happier. You just got to face the fear, go for it. And if you get fired, great for you. Collect your unemployment and take some time off.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Thank you so much for calling, Brian. We are talking about a piece that was in the cut called My Job Was My Life, Then I Got Fired. My guest is Sameita Muddapadai. She is the author of that article. She's also the author of the book the Myth of Making It A Workplace Reckoning. We'll take more of your calls and we'll talk to us more with Sameita after a quick break. This is all of you are listening to all of it on WNYC I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Sameita Mukhapadai. We are discussing her piece in the Cut. My job was my life. Then I got fired. It's an excerpt from her book, the Myth of Making It A Workplace Reckoning. All right, so you get a new job, you get a swanky new job, you become the executive editor at Teen Vogue. That's a big job. But you said you were never really good about setting boundaries at work. Looking back, what are some boundaries you wish you had set?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

You know, you would think that after I hit rock bottom from losing a job, I would walk into a new job with a sense of skepticism. And instead, as I write in the essay, I hit the ground running, like a rebound, you know, boyfriend. Where I hadn't really hailed from the breakup, but I just immersed myself completely into this new universe and environment and was exciting, right? It was a very exciting opportunity for me. And it was this new moment. It was the ultimate kind of, you know, revenge fantasy for, for anyone that looked over me in the past. And so I, if anything, I doubled down. And I think some of the things that I probably would have done differently is not internalize so much the success of a job or an organization based on my contribution to it. Right. That, you know, work comes and goes and we can always have profound impacts on the environments that we're in and the ways that we treat people. But I would probably put a little distance between me and the overall success of any type of project I'm working on or any type of kind of management position that I'm in because we can't take on every single thing that we're kind of managing in these environments. And so that's definitely something that I've learned.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Let's talk to Douglas, who's calling in from Rumsen. Hey, Douglas, thanks for calling, all of it. What's your story?

[Alison Stewart]

Hey, thank you for taking my call. Yeah, I was in tech for about 30 years and I got laid off from a behemoth technology company last January. January 24th. And I went back to something I did 30 years ago with my brother in D.C. and that is to restore bronze statues and objects. So last January 24th, I started my own company. I reached out to four world famous conservators in the United States and I basically wrote them. How would you like to hire a 64 year old intern? They all chuckled. Two of them took me up on it. One sent me to a job at the Supreme Court. The other one sent me to a project at Columbia University and Then last year I completed about seven of my own bronze statue conservation projects.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Congratulations, Douglas. Well done. Let's talk to Mary from Belford, New Jersey. Hi Mary, thanks for calling all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

Thanks. Thanks everybody. Your stories, the people I'm hearing are really inspiring. So I'm going to be retiring at the end of this year and it turns out we have new management and there's a chance I'm going to be fired, laid off, whatever you want to call it. And I don't want that to be my legacy. I'm having anxiety because of it, but hearing everybody else turn their lives around kind of inspires me. So thank you for the session.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Thank you so much for calling in. This is an interesting text me and I and I would love to get you respond. It said my friend just texted me to tune in. I just got laid off Tuesday, my six year anniversary. Reason? Budget cuts. Although I was doing above my job description, telling me it had nothing to do with my performance. I'm rated an exemplary employee. No warning yet if I resigned. I'm expected to give four weeks notice. I'm just angry about how it all went since they knew since February and they waited to the last minute. I wasn't valued being given a heads up. I'm three years away from full retirement age. How am I expected to start over? Especially at the salary that I feel that I am worth. Could you give this person some guidance, something from your experience you think might help them?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, I'm so sorry that that happened and I understand that feeling of absolute shock. And no matter how many times someone can tell you that it had nothing to do with you, obviously it did on some level because I was the chosen one and the other person wasn't. And you know, and so I don't, I'm not gonna, you know, share a bunch of phony, phony sayings that I think a lot of people do where it's like this is this huge opportunity. But you know, the thing that I've learned and you know, I, I'm in the middle of my career, not, not towards the end of it, is that there are so many opportunities. You get to reinvent yourself, find new types of work, find new ways to engage in issues or, you know, areas that you've never thought about before and to try and see it as a gift because I know that's like, I really struggled with that and I see other people, especially really ambitious women in my life struggle with this that like when they're given, when they Hit a wall when they lose their job, when they lose an opportunity, they don't as a chance to take care of themselves, to step back, to reconnect with their family, to re establish what their values are or what's important to them. And I think giving yourself that space to just heal a little bit will set you up better for whatever next opportunity might come your way, assuming that you're financially able to do that. Right. Like, obviously, for a lot of people, when they lose a job, they immediately need to start looking for a new job. And that was definitely true in the environment that I was working in. And for most, I think, you know, young employees in New York City, that is definitely the case. Right. But if you have the opportunity or if you have some severance and you have a little bit of time, you know, think about a hobby that you've never worked on before. Think about some way that you can nurture yourself to kind of get through this moment so you're in a better place mentally when the new opportunity comes along, which it will.

[Samita Mukapadai]

I'm sort of interested. And she said that she was really angry, and when I got fired, I was really mad. How did you get through the anger? That's a hard one.

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Great question. Yeah, I mean, I still get angry. If we keep talking, I might start getting angry right now, fully, honestly, you know, So I think that's a necessary and important piece of it because I, you know, and I. I appreciate the callers that have been saying, like, this was an opportunity and I got to redirect my life. I was not in that energy. Right. Like, I just was so angry, and I felt so deceived, and I felt so shut down by the experience. And I think that's okay. Like, I think it's okay to be angry about it because it is something that's deeply unfair. And yes, you can lay it out and say it's budget cuts or it's this. And it's true that people often have to make decisions that are really challenging and really hard to make. And I should also clarify, Allison. Like, I have been in a position where I've had to also help eliminate people, too. You know, so I've sat on both sides of it, and I know how awful those decisions are and what, you know, the consequences of them are going to be. And so I think it's normal to be really angry about it, and I think that's okay. And also, that's where the work around, like, I am not what my job is comes in, because once you start to Remove yourself a little bit from how important that job is to your identity. You get less and less angry because it is just another opportunity. And also, you know, this segment is really well timed in a moment where a lot of people are going through major transitions in terms of work and losing their jobs. And so, you know, we are in a moment that, like, none of us are alone in this right now. Like, a lot of people are experiencing this.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Let's talk to Christine, who's calling in from West Orange. Hi, Christine, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi, Allison, thanks for taking my call. The identical situations I have share with your guest and so many of the callers are ridiculous. I could spend an hour talking about how similar my situation was, but when I got fired from a job, it sent me into a terrible, terrible, deep depression. And it wasn't even that I loved my job. It was that as a child of immigrants, I was taught that work is everything, work is life. And you have to work and you have to earn a way through your life. And working in the tech world where I didn't love what I did but then got fired anyway, it sent me into this huge identity crisis because no one ever encouraged me to follow my bliss, do something you love and are passionate about. And it's, I'm still struggling with it, but I ended up stumbling into being, becoming a professional organizer. So I help other people declutter their homes. And it's been so fulfilling and satisfying. But I really wish that society had more empathy and grace for people and work. And it's like, you're not your job. If you lose it, it's okay. There's other things you can do and it doesn't mean you're worthless or lazy or any of those things. You know, people are so hard on people when they get fired and just it's not fair and it's not right. And I really appreciate the segment so much. Thank you.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Thanks for calling in. Let's talk to Scott, who's calling us from Red Bank, New Jersey. Hey, Scott, thank you so much for taking the time to call us.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi, Allison, thanks for taking my call.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm 59. I've lived in the Monmouth County, New Jersey all my life. And I work in the blue collar trades, but I have a lot of friends in the white collar trades. And I see them, my friends in their late 50s and early 60s getting laid off at this point and having a real struggle finding another job and then just mentally coming to the realization that you can't make your identity your job.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

So I'm very fortunate in the trade. We have the opposite problem. I'm 59, and I had worked at one shop for 35 years, got laid off. I got the. My boss was in his late 70s and sold the shop and they developed it into some apartments. I was a little nervous. I went to 10 different body shops. I got 10 different job offers.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Wow.

[Alison Stewart]

They're. They're just desperate for talented guys. And I'm not even the most talented guy. I'm just a hard worker, you know.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Who says you're not the most talented? That's what I want. Who says, thank you so much for calling, Scott. We're going to run out of time. And I did want to get a couple more questions into my guest, Samita Mukapadai. You talk about certain generations having certain expectations. You're a Gen X woman. I'm a Gen X woman. Do you think the generations have a different relationship with work?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Absolutely. I think that. Well, I think one thing that is probably universal right now is anxiety around the future of our economy and the future of all of our jobs. So I actually think that's kind of something we're all universally experiencing, from what I can understand. But I do think that Gen X and some elder millennials, we were very much indoctrinated into the work hard, play hard ethos, Right? So you sacrifice everything for work and you have that payday one day. Younger generations are seeing that payday isn't really coming, right? We're retiring older and older. Many of us, even our elders, are retiring without a lot of resources, without a lot of, you know, pensions or retirement accounts. And they're seeing that, and they're like, well, why did you do it? Or, you know, so many people my age who have worked for 20, 30 years and still can't afford a house, right? They still can't afford the. They still can't afford their daycare bills and all, all of those different things. So I think that that that kind of the dream that we had worked for for so long, going to college, owning a home, you know, having this type of life, this kind of nuclear family American life, there have been a lot of holes poked into that. It has become cost prohibitive for many, many Americans to do that. And I do think that younger generations aren't really putting up with that. And so you see that they're agitating a lot more for equitable workplaces. And you also see that they are much more comfortable with the language of boundaries, which can be Very challenging when you're a manager and you never had any and you're like, well, I worked really hard to get here. And they're looking at you and they're like, worked hard to get where?

[Samita Mukapadai]

Let's check in. I think this is going to be our last call. Emily from Brooklyn. Hi, Emily.

[Alison Stewart]

Hi, Alison. I love your show, Tamita. I love your work and your book. Thanks for having me. I got laid off in 2017 from a tech job. I was a computer engineering major and an mba and I used the opportunity to dive in and pursue kind of a new interest in creative writing. And eight years later, I just published my debut novel with HarperCollins. And since then I've really, I really shifted my view of work from this career driven climb the ladder, get my mba, all this stuff, to more of like a day job where I collect a paycheck and then pursue what I actually love on the side. And it was just. Yeah, I really appreciate this segment because that layoff was a big turning point for me.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Okay, Emily, what's the name of your debut novel?

[Alison Stewart]

It's called Nothing Serious by Emily J. Smith. Thanks for asking, Alison.

[Samita Mukapadai]

Samita, before we wrap up, what kinds of responses have you gotten to this piece?

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Overwhelming, Alison. Overwhelming. People have told me either that they feel, you know, that they decided to quit their job after reading it. And I almost, I'm out of here. Wait, wait.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

And I'm like, wait, wait, wait. Are you sure you should do that? Right. Because they are realizing that something's off or they're not being valued in their workplace. But really just a. I mean, and, and I, and every, I mean, similar to all of the colors today, from every type of industry and every walk of life you can imagine, from the creative fields to dental hygienists, to secretaries to nurses. I have gotten so much feedback from people that have, you know, just felt seen in terms of identifying all of the feelings that we're talking about in terms of being angry, feeling let down, feeling like a disappointment, realizing how much their job was their identity. And I really do think we are coming upon this time where people are starting to decouple this idea of success from their own kind of personal success, and they're redefining it. I think what scares me, and this is the thought that I'll leave you with is because it's unfortunate that overwhelmingly that's a lot of women who are kind of self selecting themselves out of further opportunity because they are tired of having, you know, the door shut in their face.

[Samita Mukapadai]

My guest has been Samita Mukapadai. The name of the piece was My Job Was My Life. Then I Got Fired. It was available via the Cut, or you can read her book, the Myth of Making It A Workplace Reckoning. Thanks for joining us, Samita.

[Sumita Mukhopadai]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Samita Mukapadai]

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first, first and foremost, with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.