How to Break Up With Your Pest Friend

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: "How to Break Up With Your Pest Friend"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Jim Fredricks, Entomologist & SVP, National Pest Management Association
Date: June 24, 2024

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Overview

This episode tackles a universal city dweller’s problem: how to say goodbye to the “pest friends” that invade our homes—mice, roaches, fruit flies, and more. With summer bringing increased pest activity, host Koosha Navadar invites listeners and expert entomologist Jim Fredricks to share stories, provide prevention tips, and debunk pest myths. Listeners call in with their own experiences—ranging from creative fruit fly traps to the eternal debate about cats as rodent control—making for an informative, practical, and at times humorous look at managing unwanted houseguests.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Most Common Urban Pests & Why They Love NYC

• Year-Round Roommates: Many pests thrive indoors regardless of season since “we give them food, shelter, and water…there’s no reason for them to leave.” (Jim, 04:33)

  • House mouse: Most common indoor rodent
  • German cockroach: Ubiquitous in cities worldwide
  • Bedbugs: Associate with travel and hotels, but can also become a household issue

• Seasonal Shifts: “About 20 million homes are invaded each year as the weather goes from warm to cool in the fall…rodents seek shelter indoors to overwinter.” (Jim, 05:45)

  • Outdoor summer threats: mosquitoes, ticks

2. Recognizing When You Have a Problem

• When to Worry: “An infestation is when the population begins to multiply… But if you see one or two [roaches], you probably ought to reach out to a professional.” (Jim, 07:06)
  • Infestation vs. isolated incident: populations, reproduction, visible increase in pests

3. Pest-Specific Tips & Prevention

• Carpenter Bees:
  • “Painting the wood is usually enough of a deterrent… seal up any holes where these bees might be entering from outside.” (Jim, 09:00)
• Black Flies vs. Gnats:
  • “Pest identification is key... it’s really hard to tell exactly what species we’re talking about.” (Jim, 10:44)

4. Fruit Flies and Gnats: Two-Pronged Approach

• Larissa (Caller, Chicago) on Fruit Fly Battle:

  • Adults: Trap with red wine + dish soap (“gnats are kind of luscious like that, like myself”—Larissa, 12:14)
  • Larvae: Remove/replace top layer of soil

• Zoe (Caller, Long Island City): Freeze compostable waste to avoid attracting flies: “I put the garbage directly into the freezer. And when the bag is full, I take it out.” (Zoe, 14:14)

• Expert Confirmation: “These are great tips...Finding the source of any fly infestation is key...Fruit flies are attracted to decaying fruit or vegetable matter.” (Jim, 15:04)

5. Rodents: Distinguishing and Dealing with Rats vs. Mice

• Rats vs. Mice:

  • “A rat...16 inches from nose to tail, weigh about 1 pound... House mouse… only needs a hole about the size of a dime to squeeze its body through.” (Jim, 18:05; 19:35)

• Essential Prevention Tactics:

  • Seal food in airtight containers (“Even the tiniest crumb is going to be a feast for a mouse”)
  • Inspect and seal holes: mice need only a dime-sized hole; rats need a quarter-sized
  • Droppings often reveal activity
  • “Call a pro in, because mice can reproduce quickly—20 offspring a year.” (Jim, 19:35)

• Neighbor’s Problem Becoming Yours:

  • “As the population increases, they will spread out. There won’t be an overabundance in one location...look underneath kitchen cabinets where the pipes come through.” (Jim, 20:54)

6. Cats, Dogs, and the Pest Control Myth

• Justina (Caller, Manhattan/Queens): “Cats have been my best protectors...” and plugs city rescue (21:41)

  • Expert’s Reality Check: “Cats are great, but not always the best protector. They might displace [rodents], but not eliminate...as soon as the cats left, the rats returned.” (Jim, 22:51)

• Roaches/Water Bugs/Palmetto Bugs:

  • “All the same thing—different species. Approach for control is the same.” (Jim, 24:16)

7. Home Remedies, Humane Trapping, and Supplies

• Steel Wool:

  • “Find those holes and stuff them with steel wool. Rodents… can’t chew through it.” (Eileen, 24:52)

• Humane Mouse Traps:

  • How far to relocate? “Home range for a house mouse...6 to 30 feet…Take it pretty far just to be on the safe side.” (Jim, 26:44)

• Essential Pest-Prevention Supplies:

  • Steel wool
  • Expanding foam
  • Caulk
  • Garage door seals/door sweeps (“If you can fit a pencil underneath the gap in your door, a mouse can squeeze its way through.” — Jim, 27:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you see one [roach], there’s going to be others close behind you.”
  — Jim Fredricks [07:06]

• “Give them some wine and some dish soap. Suck them into a party.”
  — Koosha Navadar, paraphrasing Larissa’s fruit fly trap [14:01]

• “A mouse only needs a hole about the size of a dime to squeeze its body through. A rat needs to hold [a hole] about the size of a quarter.”
  — Jim Fredricks [19:35]

• “Cats are great, but not always the best protector, even from rodents...”
  — Jim Fredricks [22:51]

• “All the same thing—different species... In the south, they call those American cockroaches palmetto bugs.”
  — Jim Fredricks [24:16]

• “If you can fit a pencil underneath the gap in your door, a mouse can squeeze its way through.”
  — Jim Fredricks [27:57]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:37] Show introduction and episode preview
• [04:04] Jim Fredricks joins; most common NYC pests
• [07:06] When to act on a pest sighting/infestation
• [08:31] Listener Peter’s carpenter bee dilemma
• [12:09] Larissa (Chicago) shares fruit fly/gnat plant strategy
• [14:14] Zoe (LIC) describes freezing compost; other tips
• [18:05] The big rat vs. little mouse conundrum
• [19:35] How to prevent and deal with rodents
• [21:39] Justina signals the “cat protector” solution
• [24:44] Roaches vs. water bugs explained
• [24:52] Steel wool for mice prevention (Eileen, Bernardsville)
• [26:07] Humane mouse trap questions (Jack, East Orange)
• [27:57] Must-have supplies for a pest-free apartment
• [29:11] Episode wrap-up

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Prevention is key: seal every gap, clean thoroughly, and keep food sealed.
• Identification matters: not all “bugs” are the same, so proper ID leads to proper control.
• DIY remedies can help, but infestations often require professional intervention.
• Pets may help, but are not a guaranteed solution for pests.
• For humane removal, distance is important—relocate far to avoid repeat visits.

Final Tip: "If you can fit a pencil underneath the gap in your door, a mouse can squeeze its way through." (Jim, 27:57)

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Guest info:
Jim Fredricks, Entomologist and Senior Vice President of Public Affairs, National Pest Management Association

Host:
Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)

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This summary distills the lively discussion on urban pest management with expert insights, hands-on tips from real listeners, and actionable advice for a pest-free summer.

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Jim Fredricks]

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[Koosha Navadar]

This is all of it. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Hey, thanks for spending part of your Monday with us. Thankfully, we have a brief respite from the 90 degree weather. Hope you're all staying cool out there. Here's what's coming up on today's show. A new ESPN 30 for 30 podcast tells the story of hockey sensation Hobie Baker, including his tragic death in World War I, and also evidence that suggests Baker's sexuality was more fluid than some may think. Plus, we'll talk about summer travel destinations with executive editor Nydia Chambers from Lonely Planet, and we'll speak with therapist Matt Lundquist about how to handle fomo. As you see other people's vacation photos. That's the plan. So let's get this started with how to say goodbye to pests. In a meeting last week, a producer on our show, Aki, told us he had an uninvited guest visit his apartment. Aki was cooking dinner, minding his own business, and then out of the corner of his eye on the kitchen floor, he saw a flash of two ears, gray hair and a tail crawl under his fridge. It was a mouse. He tried to catch it with a broom and dustpan, but the little guy scurried away right back where he came from. He might still be There, who knows? But what we do know is that Aki is not alone with his battle with mice and other pests. So that's why today we're talking about how to say bye to these pests. Or should I say our pest friends, listeners. What tips do you have for getting rid of pests like mice, roaches, or fruit flies? Do you have any natural remedies? How do you keep them away for good? Maybe you have some good prevention methods, too. Are there any pests that you have trouble keeping away right now? Which ones? What's the time that you saw something in your home that shouldn't be there that also happens to be a pest? Just to be clear, we want your stories. Give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Or you can hit us up on Instagram or X. We're at all of it, wnyc. And with us is Jim Fredricks, an entomologist and senior vice president, affairs at the National Pest Management Association. Jim, hey. Welcome to all of it.

[Jim Fredricks]

Hey, thank you so much for having me.

[Koosha Navadar]

Absolutely. Gotta ask, do you remember the last pest you had in your house?

[Jim Fredricks]

You know what? I just saw a mouse in the garage last night.

[Koosha Navadar]

Okay. Okay. So, Aki, you are not alone. I'm looking at Aki right here, right now. Let's dive into it then. What? You know, it sounds like mice are very common. What are some of the most common insects that, that residents have to deal with in and around their homes? Season, especially in New York City in the summer.

[Jim Fredricks]

Yeah. You know what? When it comes to summertime, people are often thinking about outside pests, but the pests that are indoors are typically going to stay indoors all year round because we create such a great environment for them. We give them food, we give them shelter, we give them water, and there's no reason for them to leave. And so inside apartments, inside condos, buildings, I think the things that people are most commonly going to see are the house mouse, definitely. It is the most commonly encountered indoor rodent across the United States. But then also the German cockroach, which is kind of a ubiquitous cosmopolitan cockroach that people see all over the world. And then also one that we sometimes will associate with summertime, the travel season, and that's bedbugs. And so that's another one that we ought to be on the lookout for because in each of these cases, populations can grow extremely quickly.

[Koosha Navadar]

And we're going to get into some of those specific ones that you mentioned later on in the show. I'm wondering, does this change by season, especially in New York City?

[Jim Fredricks]

Well, the pests I just mentioned there are typically going to be indoors. And so they don't necessarily, they don't really change by season. But certainly seasons have a lot to do with pest pressures for the pests that are outside and want to find their way in. So a good example of that is, is actually the house mouse. We, we estimate that about 20 million homes are invaded each year as the weather goes from warm to cool in the fall, in the autumn. And that's because outdoor rodents are going to be seeking shelter indoors to overwinter. There are other pests that are especially active during the summer that would be mosquitoes and ticks, something that you don't necessarily think about indoors but really are so important as you, as the, when it's actually a little bit warm right now, but when people are really enjoying the outdoor temperatures, you know, getting out in the park or wherever, mosquitoes can be a real nuisance, but can also be a threat to your health.

[Koosha Navadar]

And a lot of people might spot, you know, let's say roaches, maybe one or two roaches or flies in their apartment every once in a while. How do you know when it's an actual problem or infestation? Like, at what point do you need to take action and then at what point do you need to take professional action?

[Jim Fredricks]

Well, an urban entomologist like myself would probably define an infestation as opposed to an occurrence as when the population begins to multiply, when the population begins to reproduce, you have a sustaining population that's an infestation. But honestly, it's very difficult to tell the difference between an infestation or just a one or two off occurrence. When it comes to a pest like a cockroach, typically if you see one, there's going to be others close behind you. Typically when, when populations are very low, you're not going to see all that many cockroaches. But when populations get larger, then these pests will be pushed out into the places that we frequent and you'll find them on the counter or you find them in the cabinets. And so my advice would be, if you see or two, you probably ought to reach out to a professional and get some help because these populations can really snowball very quickly.

[Koosha Navadar]

So it's the proliferation, like you said, if the population is growing, that's when it's time to seek help. Listeners, what tips do you have for Getting rid of your pests like mice, roaches, or fruit flies. Do you have any natural remedies? Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Peter in Nyack, you're on the line. Welcome to the show.

[Callers]

Hi. I have a wooden frame house, and every spring I get carpenter bees that fly around the roof line. And recently I've discovered evidence of the carpenter bees, as in sawdust on the floor of my attic.

[Koosha Navadar]

And do you have a question about it, Peter?

[Callers]

Well, what could I do about it?

[Koosha Navadar]

Okay, thank you so much. So we got carpenter bees there in a wood house. What do you think, Jim?

[Jim Fredricks]

Yeah, you know, carpenter bees, you often see this. So to describe what these bees are, they're large, robust bees, usually black and yellow. They can sometimes act a little bit aggressively, especially if you see them flying around the outside of the house. They'll sometimes dive bomb you. Carpenter bees, first of all, are not likely to sting. They're solitary bees. And what they do is they drill holes into wood. They're about a half inch, perfectly round holes into the wood that they will then lay an egg and then provision that egg with pollen. Now, that's great if the piece of wood is a log out in the park or in the woods, but when it comes to people's homes, it can actually destroy wood. And so advice for that situation, there are treatments that can be done in terms of prevention, painting the wood is usually enough of a deterrent to stop those carpenter bees from chewing into the wood. Now, if it's inside a wooden home, inside an attic, it's unlikely you're going to kind of, you know, paint all of the, all the wooden members in an attic. But you, you could very well seal up any holes where these bees might be entering from the outside. If that doesn't help, it's good to reach out to a pro who might be able to provide some solutions regarding carpenter bee control.

[Koosha Navadar]

We're getting a lot of texts coming in about bugs and insects. So I want, especially since you're an entomologist, I want to stay on that for a second. So first, Peter, thanks for calling for kicking us off with the bug segment. We have a text here that says, what about these big black flies that hang out in terraces and gardens? How to prevent big black flies outside? Could those be gnats or something else? What do you think, Jim?

[Jim Fredricks]

Well, if it's a gnats are typically going to be a small fly, right Real small. And there are a ton of different fly species that this could be. They range in size from a, from a tiny little fruit fly to kind of big horse flies. Now if you're seeing these, these large black flies kind of hanging out or maybe even on the surface hanging out on the walls, they could be, they could be house flies, which would be probably one of the most common flies that's going to be coming. They're going to be feeding on all kinds of decaying human food. They're often attracted to garbage or trash. They could also be a fly called a cluster. And cluster flies typically are going to see those in the spring or in the winter. And what they'll do is they'll seek harborage inside a building. So they'll find their way through a crack, get into that warm spot to spend the winter, and then when the, the spring sun starts to beat on the building, they'll emerge. Sometimes they'll emerge inside, sometimes they'll emerge outside. As with any of these, pest identification is key. So despite the fact that a big black fly sounds like a pretty good descriptor, it's really hard to tell exactly what species we're talking about. And so it's hard to determine exactly what the best course of action in that case would be.

[Koosha Navadar]

Got it. Let's move into fruit flies. We've got Larissa in Chicago. Hey, Larissa, welcome to the show.

[Callers]

Hi. Happy to be here.

[Koosha Navadar]

Great.

[Jim Fredricks]

Hi.

[Koosha Navadar]

Go ahead.

[Callers]

Hi. So when it comes to, you know, little fruit flies and gnats, I'm a tropical plant specialist. I've spent several years inside of a greenhouse kind of taking care of these guys. And you do need a two pronged approach to it because you need to get the, you know, you need to get the adult flies that are flying around, but you also need to get the baby ones that are inside the soil. Usually they'll lay within that first half inch or inch of soil. And so a lot of people find success by just removing soil. Like if you, if you do have a plant that it seems like they're drawn to, like, especially like a moisture based plant like a peace lily, getting rid of that first layer of soil can usually take care of the nymphs. But then as far as adults go, you do need something that is going to take care of them, which is a little more difficult because they're flying around. So what I usually do is I leave, I leave out a glass of red wine. Apparently gnats are kind of luscious like that, like myself, and they're drawn to that smell. And another thing that you can do to kind of help out with that is add a little bit of dish soap, and that'll help break the surface tension when they try to land on it, and it'll just kind of suck them under. And I found a lot of success if you kind of just leave it out for a few days, especially if you compost or have anything that they're kind of drawn to. I'll leave a little bit of red wine or apple cider vinegar out.

[Koosha Navadar]

Larissa, thank you so much for that. One, two punch there. Replace the soil, and then suck them into a party of red wine. We've got another caller I want to take about fruit flies. Zoe in Long Island City. Hey, Zoe. Welcome to the show.

[Callers]

Hi. Thanks. Yeah, I've eliminated my fruit fly problem now that we can recycle our garbage in Queens. I actually use those little biodegradable plastic bags, and I put the garbage directly into the freezer. And when the bag is full, I take it out. And because it's frozen, it doesn't leak when you're carrying it downstairs. And I just, you know, can toss the whole thing into the recycling bin.

[Koosha Navadar]

Zoe, thank you so much. So let's. Let's pull that all together. Jim, we got two great callers about fruit flies. One says, hey, the soil, recycle it. If you see them for the babies and then for the adults, give them some wine and some dish soap. And then Zoe was saying, put the garbage in the freezer. What do you think? Any other advice you would give for fruit flies?

[Jim Fredricks]

These are. These are great. These are great tips here. I think that it gets at a point about finding the source of any fly infestation. So there's actually two different flies I think we're talking about here. One is a fungus gnat. That's the one that loves to be in the soil. And. And you oftentimes find these tiny little gnats that are kind of buzzing around a light and then sometimes buzzing around a plant. If you can find that. That pot in your home, that is that they're buzzing around, just water that less. So less frequent watering will help to eliminate that, because those. Those fungus gnats like to feed on fungus in the soil. But fruit flies, the source of the infestation is key here. And so what fruit flies are attracted to is decaying fruit or vegetable matter. And as it decays, it begins to ferment. And so this is getting at Larissa's tip. As it ferments, it produces alcohol and the, the flies are attracted to the, the tiny bits of alcohol that are created to feed on the yeast cells that are fermenting this fruit or vegetable matter. And so if you're composting, make sure that sealed up. Make sure it's moved outdoors quickly. I love the idea of putting it into the freezer because no fruit fly is going to be able to survive those freezing temperatures.

[Koosha Navadar]

Listeners, if you have tips about other insects or pests as well, give us a call. We're talking about deal with unwelcome guests in your home and kind of outside your home. As Jim was saying, give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. We'll be back talking to Jim Fredricks who's an entomologist and senior vice president of public affairs at the National Pest Management Association. When we come back, we'll talk about mice, we'll talk about bedbugs and some other pests. It's going to be great. Stay with.

[Callers]

This.

[Koosha Navadar]

Is all of it on wnyc. I'm Koosha Koosha Navadar and we are here with Jim Fredricks who is the entomologist and senior vice president of public affairs at the National Pest Management Association. Listeners, we're talking about pests about unwelcome guests in your home. If you have a tip or a question for Jim, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. Our text and our phone lines are blowing up. There is one text in particular that I really want to read. It frying up chicken in a pretty tight fitting lid on pan. Come back a couple minutes later, a rat had opened the lid and had its head into the pan. Yes, a rat, not a mouse, don't live there anymore. Okay. I'm sorry that that happened to you. Texter. Thank you for sharing that story, Jim. I want to bring it to you. Let's talk about rats. Let's talk about mice. How can one tell if, if it's a mouse or if it's something bigger?

[Jim Fredricks]

Well, you hit the nail on the head. It's all about size when it comes to mice and rats. Now the one time that you might confuse these, I mean, a rat is going to now there, there are stories of some really large rats in New York City, right? We all have our stories about the super rat. But typically a rat is only going to measure about 16 inches. The largest rat fully grown 16 inches from nose to tail, weigh about 1 pound but when you see a rat and you think like, boy, that was the biggest rat I ever saw. It might be for two reasons. One, it may have gotten run over by a car. And a splatted rat seems a lot bigger than a, than an altogether rat. But even, but more probable is that when a rat sees you, it gets scared. It puffs itself up up and tries to make itself look bigger. Its hair stands on end and it looks like a real big rat. But the most common pest indoors when it comes to rodents would be the house mouse. These might be confused when you have a baby rat next to a full size house mouse. But what you'll find is a rat's feet are bigger when they're, when they're large, they're out. They're, they're super sized feet. Just like a puppy that you know will grow into a big dog has big feet. Baby rats have big feet.

[Koosha Navadar]

So let's say you see a collection of fur and feet scurrying across and you yelp and you go into another room and you collect yourself. What's your next step? What should you do after that?

[Jim Fredricks]

So a couple of things to protect your home from rodents. It's important to keep food spills cleaned up. Even the tiniest crumb is going to be a feast for a mouse. Keep things sealed up in airtight containers. A mouse can chew through just about any kind of a plastic container, but if it's airtight, it's going to be less likely that it's going to chew its way through because it won't be able to smell what's on the other side. So seal these things up. Look for any holes, cracks or crevices where they might be squeezing from one unit to the next. A mouse only needs a hole about the size of a dime to squeeze its body through. A rat needs to hold about the size of a quarter. So it's a, it's a bigger animal. Seal those up and, and try to determine where you know there may be some activity. The most common way you're going to see this is by the droppings. But it's a good idea to call a pro in because mice are going to be able to reproduce pretty quickly. They're going to have five to six offspring each time. They have a litter of young and could produce and could do that frequently. So you could have a mouse that could be producing, you know, 20 offspring in a year.

[Koosha Navadar]

What if your neighbors have a problem with rodents? How likely is it that their issue will become your issue?

[Jim Fredricks]

It, it Is it is likely mice. Rodents are territorial by nature, and so as the. As the population increases, they will tend to spread out. There won't be an overabundance, typically in one location. And so as the population grows, they will leave where there's lots of competition and go to where there's plenty of food and shelter. And so they're likely to move from one unit to the next. So one place I tell people to always look is underneath the kitchen cabinets where the pipes come through the wall. Make sure that's sealed up, because that's an easy way for rodents or cockroaches to move from one unit to the next.

[Koosha Navadar]

Got it. Justina from Manhattan, you're on the show. Hi. Welcome.

[Callers]

Hi. How are you?

[Koosha Navadar]

Good, thanks.

[Callers]

I'm in the city right now, but I am from Queens, and there are no roaches. However, there are water bugs. And I can tell you, for the past 18, maybe 20 years, cats have been my best protectors. They just chase them, and if I'm around and I see them play, then I'm the one who finishes the job. And if not, if it happens at night, usually in the morning, I'll just find a leg or two. So I know that kitties are the best. And if I may, I would love to plug in the rescue cat rescue that I volunteer for. They are called puppykittynycity. You can find them on Instagram or puppykittynycity.org we have a lot of kitties, so if you would like to adapt or maybe even foster just for the summer to see how it. What it's like, you know, to give them opportunity to hunt for.

[Koosha Navadar]

Justina, thank you so much. I'm gonna have to pause you there for time, but we appreciate it. Jim, what do you think, dogs and cats as your pest protectors?

[Jim Fredricks]

Well, you know what? Dogs and cats are your best friends, right? But. But not always your best pest professional. We actually participated in some research that took place in Brooklyn at a. At a trash transfer facility. And we were. There was a cat population there. We were studying the rats at the time, but there was a cat population there that moved in, and all of our rat activities ceased. And so we thought, wow, the cats really did the job. But then when the cats were relocated, I don't know the whole story behind it, but the cats were relocated out of that facility. The rats came back, and we had radio tagged the rats, so we knew that it wasn't new rats. It was actually the original rats. And so they might displace or make or cause the appearance of no pests. But cats are, you know, they're great, but not always the best protector, even from rodents, which they're. They're famed for. One other note about the last caller. Roaches and water bugs, all the same thing. Now, there are different species of roaches. I mentioned the German cockroach, most common in apartments. But water bugs are another one. They're often the black water bugs are oriental cockroaches. Brown roaches or brown water bugs are American cockroaches. In the south, they call those American cockroaches palmetto bugs.

[Koosha Navadar]

Interesting. So the way that you would approach both of those is the same. Is that the subtext there?

[Jim Fredricks]

That's right. And they're going to be living in different areas. I mean, the big brown roaches, the American cockroach is often associated with. With sewers and boiler rooms. Oriental roaches are often associated with kind of damp, cooler, maybe basements. But those German roaches, the smallest ones, about maybe a half inch in length with those two black racing stripes on their tan bodies, those are going to be the ones that are just going to be all over a building.

[Koosha Navadar]

We were getting a lot of calls about mice. So I want to stay on this for a second. We've got Eileen in Bernardsville, New Jersey. Eileen, hi. Welcome to the show.

[Callers]

Thank you, Jim. I mean, Jim is your guest. Sorry, yes. I want to make this quick, but I had a mouse problem after the last of my six cats died. And I know that having an exterminator definitely will. Will be the best thing, but if you can afford it, you. I found out ways because when my cats died, I did get mice. And we live in suburbia about 40 miles outside of New York. But we did get a lot of mice. We found evidence. And what I researched and what worked was looking for every little space where they could get in. Ultimately, our garage door was the worst thing and we replaced it. It sealed perfectly. But the mice can be like Houdini and move their bones and they can get through the tiniest areas. So find those holes and stuff them with steel wool. It works. They can't chew through it. The rodents, they have to chew, but they can't. The steel wool baffles them.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Eileen, thank you so much for that. And kind of echoing what you were saying, Jim, you said for mice, dime sized hole is all they need to be able to go through there. Let's go. I'm looking at the clock. I want to make sure that we get to Jack in East Orange. Hey, Jack, welcome to the show.

[Callers]

Hey, thanks so much. Yeah, I was second to steel wool. We use that too. But my question actually is about humane traps because, you know, we love animals, so even though they are pests, technically we don't want to kill them. So we got these catch up traps.

[Jim Fredricks]

The humane ones, and we relocate them.

[Callers]

After we capture them.

[Jim Fredricks]

I'm just wondering how far you mentioned.

[Callers]

How territorial those house mice are. How far do you need to take.

[Jim Fredricks]

Them from your, from your abode to.

[Callers]

Make them not come back?

[Koosha Navadar]

Interesting. Jack, thanks so much. Jim. Any ideas about that, about the distance that you need to bring or take?

[Jim Fredricks]

So, so the home range for a house mouse is typically anywhere from 6 to 30ft. If there's lots of food resources, then that's going to be a smaller area. If they have to forage really far, that's going to be out around 30, even 35ft from their, from their nest. Now, in terms of taking them away from a building, I'm not sure exactly how far you would need to take a mouse away from a building so that it didn't come back. I will tell you that you would definitely want to be aware of any concerns about taking them from your home and then causing infestation in another home, but totally get that caller's concerns about if you remove a mouse from a house, how far do you need to take it? Take it pretty far just to be on the safe side.

[Koosha Navadar]

And we want to thank you so much, Jack, for making that effort to be humane. I think that's very important. We're just out of time, but I want to make sure that we can kind of wrap this all up. Jim, so maybe what, what are five materials or supplies you think everyone needs in their apartment to prevent future pests and so you don't have to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Just what comes to the top of your mind of the kind in your pantry of goods? What do you want to take care of pests?

[Jim Fredricks]

You know, you definitely want to make sure, I think sealing up cracks and crevices, those entry points from outside of your living space to the inside. Steel wool is a great option. I think that's a great, easy option to stuff into holes. Especially expanding foam can be another one. So you can buy a can of expanding foam to help seal these things up. Be careful. That can be a real mess if you're not using it properly. Caulk, simple household caulk in the kitchen. Making sure, you know the gap between, you know, underneath the, underneath the, the counter, inside the cabinets. Make sure those gaps are sealed up because that's place where cockroaches are going to be squeezing in. A caller earlier mentioned the garage door. If you're inside your garage with the door closed and the lights out during the day, if you can see light leaking in around the corners of that garage door, it's time to replace that seal. So in addition to garage door seals, also door sweeps, making sure that you can't see light underneath the door. Because I mentioned a dime for a mouse, mice are also able to squeeze through a gap that's a quarter inch. So if you can fit a pencil underneath the gap in your door, a mouse can squeeze its way through.

[Koosha Navadar]

So maybe those materials can help you make sure you keep your house pest free. And if they show up, you got some other ways to deal with them too. We hope that this segment was helpful for you listeners. Thanks so much for your calls and for your texts and your stories. Stay safe out there. Jim. Thank you so much. Jim Fredricks is an entomologist and Senior Vice President of Public affairs at the National Pest Management Association. Happy Summer. Hope you don't have to deal with any more mice. Appreciate it.

[Jim Fredricks]

Thank you.

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