How to Combat Seasonal Affective Disorder

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – How to Combat Seasonal Affective Disorder

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Dr. Paul Desan, Psychiatrist and Associate Professor, Yale School of Medicine
Date: February 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "All Of It" delves into the causes, symptoms, and coping mechanisms related to Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), a form of depression that strikes during the darker, colder months. Host Alison Stewart speaks with Dr. Paul Desan to explore how SAD manifests, who is most at risk, and most importantly, practical ways to manage and treat the disorder—with an emphasis on light therapy, lifestyle changes, and community input from listeners.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Seasonal Affective Disorder?

[01:23] – [02:15]

• Dr. Desan defines SAD as a severe downturn in mood and energy during winter, amounting to an episode of clinical depression for 3–4% of people in northern latitudes.
• “If you hand out questionnaires, 90% of people feel worse in the winter. But for some people, they feel so much worse, it amounts to what psychiatrists would call an episode of clinical depression.” – Dr. Desan [01:31]
• SAD is recognized as a significant public health issue.

2. How SAD Differs from Other Depression

[02:19] – [03:12]

• SAD often involves oversleeping, increased appetite (especially for carbs and comfort foods), and “overwhelming lethargy and fatigue.”
  • “In depression, usually people complain of insomnia. In winter depression, people often report sleeping earlier in the evening, oversleeping…” – Dr. Desan [02:28]
• Traditional depression often features insomnia and weight loss.

3. Who Is Most at Risk?

[03:20] – [05:25]

• Geography: Risk increases with distance from the equator; higher in Maine, Canada, and Northern Europe.
  • “The further you are from the equator, the more likely you are to have a seasonal effect. It’s the light-dark cycle, we think, that controls how human mood reacts in the winter.” – Dr. Desan [03:49]
• Gender: Women are three times more likely than men to experience SAD, particularly those with premenstrual mood changes.
  • “For some reason that we don’t understand, women seem to be more susceptible.” – Dr. Desan [04:28]
• There may be genetic and cultural adaptations, but research is lacking.

4. Variability and Recurrence of SAD

[05:37] – [06:30]

• While SAD symptoms are generally consistent year-to-year, situational factors (e.g., more time outdoors) can mitigate symptoms.

5. Summer SAD

[07:17] – [07:56]

• Rare but recognized; some people experience depressive symptoms in spring/summer rather than winter. Encouraged to seek psychiatric care.

6. Listener Strategies and Experiences

[08:04] – [09:22]; [14:30] – [15:36]

• Callers share tips:
  • Morning sunlight and dogs: “The best thing I can recommend is natural daylight as soon as you when it’s dawn... And also do it again in the evening at dusk. It really sets the circadian rhythms.” – Amy, caller [08:17]
  • Blackout blinds for summer SAD; socializing during daylight hours.
• Exercise, social connection, and scheduled activities (like early morning exercise classes) help many listeners.
  • “Until meds I would sleep or hibernate for 15 hours... Early AM exercise where I have to show up. Mine is Pure Bar.” – Margaret, caller [15:36]

7. Light Therapy: The Research and Practice

[09:33] – [12:10]; [17:14] – [18:10]

• How it works:
  • Half an hour of 10,000 lux light, preferably before 8 am, can “fix the vast majority” of winter SAD cases.
    • “The consensus of experts shows that a half an hour of bright light, 10,000 lux, first thing in the morning… fixes the vast majority of people with seasonal affective disorder.” – Dr. Desan [10:42]
• Device selection:
  • Proper devices should be large and bright enough for comfortable use at arm’s length.
  • Small, dim light boxes are less effective; Yale’s website lists tested and recommended devices.
• Timing:
  • Morning use most beneficial. Evening light can interfere with sleep.

8. Other Coping Mechanisms

• Exercise: Important for resetting the body and mood; regular movement is encouraged.
  • “The caller has emphasized not giving in to staying in bed all day, but getting up and especially getting up early and getting out and being active.” – Dr. Desan [16:50]
• Socialization: Depression leads to withdrawal; staying socially engaged counteracts this.
  • “So absolutely. One approach to depression is to make sure you don’t stay in bed. You get up and you go out.” – Dr. Desan [13:31]
• Routine: Maintaining a consistent sleep schedule helps regulate circadian rhythms.

9. Common Questions from Listeners

Vitamin D and K
[18:25] – [19:14]

• Supplementing vitamin D is only useful if deficient; clinical studies show vitamin D alone does not treat SAD.
  • “We think that seasonal affective disorder for most people is not related to vitamin D... I would push people more towards looking into light as an approach…” – Dr. Desan [18:43]

Shift Work [14:49] – [15:36]

• Those with irregular hours may struggle more; light therapy can help shift circadian rhythms but may require personalized approaches.

Role of Medications [16:07] – [16:57]

• Medications like Wellbutrin are effective for some, especially if light therapy or lifestyle changes are not sufficient.

Alcohol and Caffeine
[19:52] – [20:24]

• Both can worsen symptoms or mask underlying issues.
  • “Some people when they feel depressed, they drink more and that causes them to feel yet more depressed and pull away from yet more activities.” – Dr. Desan [19:54]
  • “You’re much better off treating the underlying condition with light than trying to take a stimulant that will temporarily wake you up.” – Dr. Desan [20:24]

SAD and ADHD
[21:07] – [21:40]

• People with ADHD and SAD may find traditional therapies less effective, but activity and access to natural light remain beneficial.

Role of Partners/Spouses
[23:47] – [24:16]

• Encourage loved ones to seek treatment and try different coping strategies.
  • “Don’t say it’s normal to feel worse in the winter. Say I’m going to try all of these different things... and get out of it, deal with it.” – Dr. Desan [23:57]

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Notable Quotes

• “The overwhelming symptom that is really common in winter depression is lethargy and fatigue, a loss of energy.” – Dr. Desan [02:58]
• “If you don’t like sitting in front of a light, well, maybe I will push you to get up and enjoy natural light. Being active early in the morning...” – Dr. Desan [21:42]
• “You can have the greatest therapy in the world, but if it doesn’t fit into somebody’s lifestyle, it’s not going to work.” – Dr. Desan [21:40]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:23 – What is Seasonal Affective Disorder?
• 02:19 – Difference between SAD and other depression
• 03:20 – Who is most at risk?
• 09:33 – Introduction to light therapy
• 10:42 – How and when to use light therapy effectively
• 16:07 – Exercise and antidepressant medications
• 17:14 – How to choose the right light therapy device
• 18:25 – Vitamin D and SAD
• 19:52 – Alcohol and caffeine’s impact
• 21:07 – SAD & ADHD interaction
• 22:41 – Dr. Desan’s “top three” coping suggestions
• 23:47 – The role of a spouse/partner in supporting someone with SAD

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Practical Takeaways

• Bright light therapy (10,000 lux for 30 minutes before 8 am) is the most research-backed treatment for winter SAD.
• Natural sunlight and outdoor activity—especially early in the morning—can serve as an alternative or complement to light devices.
• Exercise, social connections, and establishing a routine are vital to maintaining mental health during winter.
• Medication (notably Wellbutrin) can be considered if non-pharmaceutical treatments don’t suffice.
• Alcohol and excessive caffeine use can worsen depressive symptoms; treat the cause, not the symptoms.
• Support from friends, family, and partners enhances recovery and coping.

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This episode offers practical, nuanced, and research-backed insight into seasonal depression with equal focus on science and real-world experience—making it a valuable listen for anyone affected by the winter blues or seeking to support someone who is.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The last few weeks have been especially cold, snowy with shorter days. That means a lot of time spent indoors this time of the year can feel. I think the technical term is blah, blah, blah. For some, that shift can bring on seasonal depression, also known as seasonal affective disorder. Today we're talking about what causes it, how it affects our mood and our energy, and most importantly, practical ways to cope. Here to share a few tips is Dr. Paul Desson. He is a psychiatrist and an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale school of medicine. Dr. Desson, welcome to all of it.

[B]

Well, thank you for having me, listeners.

[A]

We want to hear from you. How do you cope with seasonal depression during these long, dark winter months? Have you tried light therapy, adjusting your sleep schedule, getting outside more? What's made a real difference for you? Call in or send us a text at 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Okay, just so we're on the same page, what exactly is seasonal affective disorder?

[B]

Well, I'm always delighted when I'm invited by any journalist to talk about seasonal affective disorder. I think it's a very important public health problem and there isn't sufficient information and understanding out there among the general public. In fact, a lot of people feel worse in the winter. If you hand out questionnaires, 90% of people feel worse in the winter. But for some people, they feel so much worse, it amounts to what psychiatrists would call an episode of clinical depression. At the latitude we're at now, I'm in Connecticut, Maybe we estimate 3 or 4% of people have an episode of depression every winter. Well, that's a major public health problem.

[A]

How is it different from other forms of depression?

[B]

Well, that's interesting. People with the full episode of seasonal affective disorder, they tend to be a little distinctive. They tend to sleep more. In depression, usually people complain of insomnia. In winter depression, people often report sleeping earlier in the evening, oversleeping, taking long naps, which isn't their typical pattern. The other difference is people tend to complain of increased appetite, maybe food cravings for carbohydrates or fats, comfort foods, whereas in normal depression, it's more likely that people lose appetite and lose weight. The overwhelming symptom that is really common in winter depression is lethargy and fatigue, a loss of energy.

[C]

Who is at the most risk for developing seasonal depression, or does it not care? It could just hit anybody.

[B]

Well, as I said, we Think it's a basic human pattern. But of course, distance from the equator is very important here at our latitude, as I said, we think people with the actual full syndrome is 3 or 4%. If you go further north to Maine or Canada, a lot of our research we've done in northern Europe because the incidence is higher. So the further you are from the equator, the more likely you are to have a seasonal effect. It's the light dark cycle, we think, that controls how human mood reacts in the winter.

[C]

It's interesting.

[B]

The other factor is gender.

[C]

Gender.

[B]

Women are much more sensitive to the effect of season. Just in the population at large, if you hand out questionnaires to unselected people, and women are three times more likely to have seasonal affective disorder. Moreover, women who have seasonal affective disorder are more likely to have premenstrual mood changes. And women who have premenstrual mood changes are more likely to have seasonal affective disorder. For some reason that we don't understand, women seem to be more susceptible.

[C]

I was curious about, you know, many cultures have longer days than we do, right? Are they more accustomed to it or do they have built in methods of handling folks in Alaska, for example?

[B]

No, we think that seasonal affective disorder is more common the further north you go. Really is an interesting question that certain genetic backgrounds might be more or less sensitive. And maybe, maybe if someone is from a particular ethnic group that, that has lived in those, those latitudes longer, maybe there's some diminished susceptibility. We don't have good research. I mean, frankly, we don't have good ethnic and racial factors in medicine at all. As long as I got your attention, I'll make that free sermon.

[C]

Amen.

[B]

But no, I think even the polar explorers talked about the horror of being in darkness for half the year and how they felt reborn when the sun returned.

[C]

Can seasonal affective disorder vary from year to year?

[B]

Well, you know, in psychiatry everything adds up. And people have different things going on in their life and how they respond. For example, I've had patients who changed jobs that were mostly indoors to jobs that were mostly outdoors. And that had a profound effect on their mood. But in general, people tend to feel the same way. They get to that point in October and November, right around the time we change clocks and it hits them. And so the reason I'm looking really happy to talk to any public outlet about seasonal affective disorder is people tell us that they had this problem year after year, decade after decade in their life. And in fact, there is a therapy that's very safe and practical.

[A]

We'll talk about that in just a moment. We're discussing ways to cope with seasonal affective disorder known as seasonal depression in some folks with Dr. Paul Dasan, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine. Listeners, we want to hear from you. How do you cope with seasonal affective disorder during these long winter months? Have you tried light therapy, adjusting your sleep? We want to know. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We got a text here that says I have been trying to figure out what's wrong with me because I have summer seasonal depression and I'm happier, happier in the darkness and winter. My psychologist, when diagnosing my depression, said I should do a blood test to see if my vitamin D levels are higher in summer or maybe I'm a vampire. What can you say about people who have summer seasonal depression?

[B]

Well, summer seasonal affective disorder is much rarer, but it's very real and it hasn't been nearly as much researched as winter seasonal affective disorder because it's harder to get the patients. They're simply rarer. But absolutely, I would like that person to pursue psychiatric care and that it's not in your head. Some people really do have an inverted kind of seasonal rhythm and really are more susceptible to the onset of depression in the spring and the summer.

[A]

Let's talk to Amy, who's calling in from Princeton. Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for taking the time to call, all of it. You're on the air.

[D]

Hi.

[E]

Great topic.

[D]

I have lifetime experience with this. I grew up in California, closer to the equator, lived most of my life in New York City with, of course, the bright lights at night. And I've been living in the country for past two decades. The person who said about the summer seasonal affective disorder I really relate to, I've solved a lot of the winter one for myself. And the best thing I can recommend is natural daylight as soon as you when it's dawn or if you don't get up at dawn, then as soon after, if you have a dog that's helpful, just take them out. You're not going to like it. Take off your glasses, even if they're prescription, and also do it again in the evening at dusk. And it really sets the circadian rhythms. And I think when I deal with the summer stuff, for me that's become a bigger issue because now that I'm more in the Northeast, it sometimes in like the Berkshires, which is further north, it I wow. You have to really figure out a blackout situation for your windows because it stays late so long. So it's a real thing. I've been working on it and I've had a lot of success with other ideas too.

[C]

Thank you so much for calling in, Amy.

[A]

This text says, when my husband was.

[C]

Ill, he couldn't go outside. I bought him a happy light and that helped him feel a lot brighter.

[A]

We've been talking about light.

[C]

You've often spoken of the use of light therapy. Dr. Desson. Tell us a little bit about how light therapy works.

[B]

Well, so there's been quite a bit of research with very interesting conclusions. Bright light is very helpful in seasonal affective disorder of the winter type. And the body is most sensitive first thing in the morning. So the listener who called in is one of those examples where people try things on their own and they rediscover what millions of dollars of research has shown. The original work, they tried to treat seasonal affective disorder with bright light in both the morning and the evening for many hours. Turns out that that works. That turns the winter light dark cycle into the summer light dark cycle. But you don't have to do that. We think the consensus of experts shows that a half an hour of bright light, 10,000 luxury first thing in the morning. As the, as the caller mentioned, you want to be as early as possible, certainly before 8am that fixes the vast majority of people with seasonal affective disorder of the winter type.

[C]

So you should do this in the morning. How about in the evening?

[B]

Well, you can do it in the evening. It's probably. Light is probably helpful to you anytime. Sometimes when you do it in the evening, that interferes with sleep. And the research really suggests that minute for minute, the exposure in the morning is more likely to be therapeutic. I'm not going to say we have patients who do light all day or do light only in the evening, but for the initial therapy, I think you should try the thing that research has suggested is the most potent and that's exposure to bright light. Now you really want a proper device. You want a device that will give you 10,000 lux. Lux is a measure of how bright light appears to the human eye. And that's, that's, that's like being outdoors in July and midday. So you really want a device that's large and bright. If you go to Amazon, you're going to get some devices that are kind of marginal, a little small and a little dim. They won't really give you a convenient 10,000 lux. Now, if I'm telling you to sit in front of this for 30 minutes every morning. You, you want a comfortable kind of therapy you can really incorporate into your life.

[C]

We are discussing ways to cope with seasonal affective disorder with Dr. Paul Desan, Associate professor of psychiatry at Yale School of Medicine. We'll have more of your calls and more with Dr. Desan after a quick break. This is all of it.

[A]

You are listening to ALL of IT on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We are discussing ways to cope with seasonal affective disorder, also known as seasonal depression, with Dr. Paul Desson, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale school of medicine. Dr. This text says I have always been affected by winter seasonal affective disorder ever since I moved to the northeast of the U.S. i am from the tropics of the Philippines, where I never experienced this, but this year I am taking vitamin D and K supplements. And I think it's really helped me it's also helped me to socialize in the daytime. That's Erica calling in from Brooklyn. There's two things there. One, what is the role of social connection?

[B]

Well, that's a great question. And when people get depressed, they tend to withdraw from activities that make them happy. They tend to sleep more rather than get out of bed and actually do something. They become exposed to less light. And in psychiatry, everything adds up. There's the biological signal of light. This caller, by the way, tells us something that I've heard many times. When people are living at a latitude close to the equator, they don't feel any seasonal problem. When they shift to the northeast, they do. So absolutely. One approach to depression is to make sure you don't stay in bed. You get up and you go out. And the previous caller mentioned walking the dog at the crack of dawn, getting every bit of that natural light. Some people don't need to actually purchase a light device. They make sure they get up and get out. For people who really have seasonal affective disorder, we recommend a proper light treatment device. Turns winter into summer.

[A]

Let's talk to Sarah, who's calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for taking the time to call, all of it. You had a question?

[E]

Yeah. Thanks so much for taking my call. Yeah, I definitely struggle with this.

[D]

And one of the things I struggle.

[E]

With, some of the remedies you guys are recommending is that I work shift work. So I work nights and my circadian rhythm is constantly shifting between nights and days. And I was wondering if you had any tips for people who do shift.

[D]

Work and also struggle with these seasonal problems?

[B]

Well, that's a tough question. Now I have had some patients who have seasonal problems who are able to do shift work and I've had some patients for whom obviously the light dark cycle was really important and they had real trouble with shift work. So I hope you could work it out. We do think that bright light first thing in the morning helps people to shift their circadian rhythm. So some people use a light device to help them adjust when they have to shift between a midday or an evening or a night shift.

[C]

This said, I pulled over to hear this segment on sad. I've had SAD seasonal affective disorder for decades and finally medication WellButrin helped me. Plus setting the alarm for early morning and making myself get up and get out. Also early AM exercise where I have to show up. Mine is Pure Bar. And thank you for the segment. Until meds I would sleep or hibernate for 15 hours plus from October to April. That's Margaret calling in from Sciasset. What's the role of exercise here?

[B]

Well, I think that that caller has really hit the nail on the head. First of all, I'll make a remark about medication. We always prefer to try light. We try what the patient wants. Usually the patient prefers to try that first. But for some people, antidepressants are very useful in winter depress. WellButrin is the one, the best, supported by research by us and by others. Other antidepressants probably work too. The other thing that the caller has emphasized is not giving in to staying in bed all day, but getting up and especially getting up early and getting out and being active. I talked about how sometimes people's common sense and common experience rediscovers what millions of dollars worth of research has shown.

[C]

A lot of people have been calling in and asking, where do I get the lights? Do LED lights count? What about my office lights? When we're talking about the light that we should get, where should we go for them, those kind of lights? Is there something that we should ask the retailer to make sure we get the right kind of light?

[B]

Well, one thing you can do is Google Yale Winter Depression Research Clinic and on our web pages you'll find some devices that have been objectively measured and met the standards suggested by experts in the field. We have no income from any particular device, so we tested and published. You can read the whole paper if you want. That's referenced there too. But what you want to do is you want to get something that's big and bright enough that you can comfortably sit in front of it at arm's length. If you go to a big box store and you buy a little tiny light box, it's really just a spiral fluorescent bulb and a piece of plastic. You hold your eyes six or seven inches away from it. That's 10,000 lux. But that's not a convenient therapy. Get yourself a really good device.

[C]

The next question I want to ask goes back to our person who had sad. She says she takes vitamin D and vitamin K. Are those realistic standards for people? Will that help your sad, you know.

[B]

If you have vitamin D deficiency? I think the research is a little controversial, but it probably does predispose to depression. However, we think that seasonal affective disorder for most people is not related to vitamin D, is not related to vitamin D. There was one trial of giving vitamin D for seasonal affective disorder. It didn't work. The other thing is vitamin D lasts a long time in the body. It doesn't really change that much that quickly. People get these changes very, very suddenly in October, November, December, and it takes a while to build up vitamin D in the body. So I would push people more towards looking into light as an approach to their winter depression.

[C]

We're discussing ways to cope with seasonal affective disorder, also known as seasonal depression with Dr. Paul Desun, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine. Listeners, we'd like to hear from you. How do you cope with seasonal affective disorder during these long winter months? Have you tried light therapy? Adjusting your sleep schedule, Getting outside more leading into your community? What has made a real difference for you? Our Phone number is 2124-339692-21243. WNYC. Doctor, how do, how does alcohol or caffeine affect seasonal affective disorder?

[B]

Well, I'm glad you asked about alcohol because that can be a very destructive influence. Some people when they feel depressed, they drink more and that causes them to feel yet more depressed and pull away from yet more activities. So in psychiatry, everything adds up. And healthy, healthy activities are better than intoxication.

[A]

What about alcohol?

[C]

I mean, excuse me, what about caffeine?

[B]

Well, I, I, I do think some of our patients in the winter, not only do they drink more, but they also use more caffeine in an effort to wake up and there's a diminishing return. You're much better off treating the underlying condition with light than trying to take a stimulant that will temporarily wake you up. I mean, I like coffee, so I'm not going to be too critical here, but if you really have a Serious problem. Go for the light treatment.

[A]

Let's talk to Maria, who's calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Maria, thanks for calling, all of it.

[E]

Hi, thank you. I'm interested in the connection between seasonal affective disorder and adhd. I've always had really bad seasonal affective disorder, like to the extent where in the summer, even if it's like a rainy day, I'll feel it. And light therapy has just never worked for me. One, like my circadian rhythm because of the ADHD is so late anyway. I tend to be a night owl, but I hate the feeling of sitting close to those lights. And there's just like, for me, the only ways that I've been able to cope are travel. And then like when it knows I make sure to get outside because that's the only time it's bright enough.

[B]

Yeah. So you can have the greatest therapy in the world, but if it doesn't fit into somebody's lifestyle, it's not going to work. And so if you, if you don't like sitting in front of a light, well, maybe I will push you to get up and enjoy natural light. Being active early in the morning, the experience you're having of feeling worse even in overcast days during the summer, that's very diagnostic. Many of our patients with, with seasonal affective disorder, especially more severe variants, that they're sensitive even to a run of a few dark days.

[A]

And let's talk to Boom in Lakewood. Hi, Boom. Thanks for calling. All of it is Boom. Oh, Boom has dropped. I did have a question. If someone is listening to this and, and they're really kind of in the thick of it, like they really have this depression, what are three things that they can do so that tomorrow can be a better day?

[B]

Well, I think everyone has things that sustain them and very often that's our friends. And in winter, people tend to hibernate. Let's get out there and let's do the things that really are going to sustain. You know, I guess a couple people have talked about getting up in the morning and getting exposed to light. Well, you may not quite be able to buy a light device, but let's not give in to sleeping 15 hours a day. Let's see if we can get you active again. And then finally, I do want you to get as much light as you can, even if you're not using a light grade. The medical grade light device. Are the lights fully on in your place of work? We do have some people that treat their seasonal affective disorders successfully just by having a bright light next to them during the day. Probably it's probably several hours worth of not quite as bright light compared to a half an hour of very bright light. It's a trade off.

[C]

And we have one final question from somebody listening. It says, what is the role of a spouse of someone with sad well.

[B]

You tell your spouse to get going and get treatment. Don't say it's normal to feel worse in the winter. Say I'm going to try all of these different things that I and the listeners have talked about and get out of it, deal with it.

[C]

We are discussing ways to cope with seasonal affective disorder, also known as seasonal depression, with Dr. Paul DeSan, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine.

[A]

Thank you so much for joining us today.

[B]

My pleasure.

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