D (3:19)

Sure, I think all kinds of things, and I think you're correct this time of year. And you're correct, social media certainly has a role in that. I think it really comes down to sort of two categories. I think there's the experience of feeling like other people are living, you know, sexier, more extravagant, more interesting lives. Often that fear, not always, but tends to trade around money or sort of social status and access to certain kinds of privileged events. And, you know, anybody that lives in New York, we're surrounded by people who are, you know, even really interesting. Really wealthy people are surrounded by people who are even more interesting and even wealthier than them. And there's, you know, the top of that pyramid is sort of endlessly narrow. And so. And it's right there in our faces. You know, we live very close together. And so you walk by a bar, you walk by an event, you turn on your phone and look at social media and you hear about it. That's one category. The other category, I think, is one that can be more personal, which is a sense of not just, you know, other fancier people are doing fancy things without me, but my friends, people in my friend group, or maybe my family are doing some things without me, and maybe they didn't invite me, or maybe I didn't have access, I had to work, or, you know, something. Something was in the way either by their, you know, choice to disclude me or the circumstances discluding me and that feeling, you know, very personal and being disruptive. And so I think each of those expressions of FOMO can look different, but also can play out differently, and of course, are so dependent on particular folks and what's going on for them.

E (4:53)

Yeah, and I hear, like, in that first case, I hear a lot of envy at the heart of it. Like, you say that the pyramid gets endlessly more narrow as you go up, which I think is such a great metaphor to use there. But in the second one, there seems to be a real sense of isolation, is what I.

D (5:06)

Right.

E (5:06)

Would you say that's fair?

D (5:07)

Yeah, isolation. And I think fundamentally kind of a fear of being, of being discluded. I. I would suggest if we, if we wanted to take a second and look at maybe some of the deeper psychology. And again, I think, you know, not medical advice. And I think this is so different in different situations. But broadly speaking, you know, I think we, we. We all have within us an experience, and one that I think most of us can find our way back to in childhood, of this fear of being discluded, of being excluded from a social group. And of course, the earliest, most important social group for most of us is our family. And I think that fundamentally what that comes from is an appreciation as humans of how dependent we are in other people socially for protection and companionship, and particularly for children. And so often I think this raises experiences of being, you know, left out, or a fear of being left out that can go back to being a young child, but I think has a kind of primitive psychology to it, which is this experience of feeling like I'm going to lose these social connections that are so vital for me, for my sense of community and survival, really. There's a lot that goes on there, I think, psychologically.

E (6:20)

Yeah. Well, listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you experienced summertime fomo, which is fear of missing out? Does social media play a factor in those feelings for you? I'm especially interested in hearing people who want to talk about strategies that they have found that effectively combats FOMO and ways to stop comparing your summer place to others, your summer plans to others. We're taking calls on all things FOMO, so give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. We're here with Matt Lundquist, who's the founder and clinical director of Tribeca Therapy. We're talking about how to integrate, how to handle FOMO that you might feel, especially during the summ. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. Or you can hit us up on social on X or on Instagram orlovitnyc. Matt, we've been thinking about FOMO in terms of missing out on plans, but can it also be a fear of missing out on life experiences like having a relationship or a great job or other milestone achievements that it seems like other people are having all the time?

D (7:29)

For sure. And I don't want to be the kind of the word police in terms of the application of that, but certainly an experience that people talk to me about, and I've certainly heard the word applied to it, is a sense of, you know, I've missed the boat. Other people my age are doing things Other people are having life events. I think people, you name two of the most common ones that I think can be really quite distressing. You know, other people are in relationships or their relationships are further along, perhaps they're getting married or multiply partnered and other people are having kids. And it can be very painful to not have some of those accomplishments or to feel stifled at work, to feel like peers or having more success at work. And I think certainly that's a space where these feelings can be invoked.

E (8:10)

And we just got this text that I think brings up another element that we were certainly have been talking about since 2020. It says, talk about FOMO. How about all the immunocompromised folks or people still trying not to catch endless COVID infections. Society has them out all year round. What do you think, Matt?

D (8:30)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when we begin to look at. And I think that that example is an important example as it stands. But if we sort of, you know, open up a category of, of circumstances that cause missing out, you know, financial limitations, things like people's immigration status and the ways that that affects certain risk taking that they're able to do or certain things that they're simply able to engage in, economic access, but different kinds of disability or immunostatus I think is a perfect example of that and something that can be like a really relevant issue. I'm so glad that your reader pointed that out.

E (9:13)

Yeah, yeah. And I just want to say thanks for sending that text. If you have thoughts, if you're listening right now, you have thoughts, you have a situation that's making you feel fomo, or if you have a way that you are trying to combat that feeling, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-33-9692. We have another text that just came in that says the way I combat it and it being FOMO here, the way I combat it is deleting social media, reminding myself that I can have as much fun as anyone else is. And it's all about the mindset. Usually the perceived experiences aren't really as fun as they seem. This hits the nail on the head for one of the biggest topics of the segment which, which is social media here. And I'm so happy that I saw this text. Matt, what do you, what do you make of that text?

D (9:56)

Yeah, you know, one of the things you, when you study psychology and sort of pay attention to certain kind of social phenomenon, one of these you realize is that, is that some of the things that we talk about in the context of psychology or psychotherapy that can be troubling for people are, are also unfortunately opportunities for, you know, marketers and social media platforms. And I think this is, this is maybe a prime example of that, which is, you know, I was thinking in preparing to be on the show about, you know, the old tagline, which I think we still hear plenty, is, you know, hurry now so you don't miss out, you know, this a limited time offer to buy this thing that we're selling. And I think, you know, social media, I think obviously the way, a huge part of the way it generates income, you know, getting eyeballs on ads and so creating a sense of there's something missing in my life, there's something wrong with me, I think serves exactly the function of sort of bringing eyeballs to those spaces and, and selling products. And so one is, I think, to have a savvy awareness of that. And so this list, this listener that texted you obviously took one extreme solution, which I'm not against. I think there's a case to be made for altogether abstaining for social media, but certainly short of that, I know a lot of listeners access and follow your show through social media. I think there's certainly an argument to be made that that's a meaningful way to connect and, but I think that to set limits on it is important and to have an understanding that it is a platform that is, that is, you know, a lot of researchers feel is designed to, to, to draw attention and to evoke just this very feeling as a way of, of keeping you hooked.

E (11:36)

Well, let's say that you, you choose not to delete social media, for instance, and you're still going to be a part of it. Are there things that you need to keep in mind or ways that you can handle the emotions that come up when you're scrolling through your Instagram or TikTok feeds. Like how do you put perspective in there for yourself?

D (11:52)

Yeah, and I think perspective is a tricky one and I think that again, I think we're up against some of the brilliant designers and engineers of these platforms that, that want to keep your attention and they're incentivized to do that. I think a big one that everyone talks about and one that I just simply want to co sign is to understand the difference between a kind of curated reality, you know, a kind of Instagram life or a kind of Instagram relationship, you know, an Instagram vacation, and, and, and the sense that that doesn't necessarily always align with, with what reality is that it's entertainment. And entertainment often displays kind of a narrow and distorted view of reality because that's what's appealing. And so if you're able to be in that space and understand that as a kind of fantasy, then that seems like a. Like a. Like a fine activity, I would say. I think it's important to remember that social media is meant to feel good. It's meant to feel entertaining. If you're spending time doing it and it's not feeling those ways, then it's time to look at whether or not it's worth taking a break.

E (12:57)

Yeah. And the listener that sent that text did a follow up here who said, I did mean just temporarily deleting the apps. It helps me take some time away. Although I do enjoy having social media in general. So I think that idea of, like, how do you integrate it into your life? How do you make it something where you control it instead of it creating listeners. We're talking about fomo, the fear of missing out, especially during summer when you see so many people posting about so many. What seems to be wonderful things that you yourself aren't experiencing. How do you deal with it? We're here with Matt Lundquist, who is the founder and clinical director of Tribeca Therapy. Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. I'd love to go to Nancy in Rockville Center. Hey, Nancy, welcome to the show.

D (13:43)

Hi.

F (13:44)

Thank you. This is a very interesting subject. And so I was just listening about the part about social media, and I find that interesting because, you know, sometimes people post things that aren't exactly the way they really are. So that's one thing, but it's a good idea to put it aside like you're saying. But I'm a widow, and I was a youngish widow. Now I'm not as youngish, but I found myself booted out of a lot of relationships, and people just disappeared on me because there's a whole stigma around that. So I had to find my own way. And currently I'm in a writing group. I love going places by myself. I have some really good friends that I go to theater, we go to museums, we go to the beach. But it took me a while to get past not being in a couple, and that is really a stigma. A lot of couples didn't want me around. And frankly, after a while I was like, well, I don't want to be around them either. So it just, you have to create your own path. And social media can be a great tool. I reconnected with a lot of friends by way of Facebook, who I now have, and Instagram, who I now actually do things with. Another friend who's a widow, another friend who's divorced, or just people I knew from high school. And it's a practice. It's almost like a meditation. You have to practice not being jealous. I have a friend who travels constantly. If I look at that, I'll go crazy. Rather, I'm happy for her.

E (15:32)

I think that's such an important perspective that you're bringing to the conversation here. Back then, when you were first starting to feel excluded, what was your step one? Where did you find the path starting to unfurl for you? Was it joining that writing group, or was it something different?

F (15:46)

No. Well, actually, I have to laugh about it now because I had to prove to myself that I was okay. And my husband had just passed away. And the first thing I did was I went to Jazz at Lincoln center by myself, which is something I would have done with him. And it was kind of a weird thing to do. I got a little drunk, but I enjoyed it. And it was my beginning of seeing that you can do this by yourself and you can do things alone and it's okay. And I have, like I said, I have a couple really great friends. We do things together. Not all the time, though. I just saw three Broadway plays, two musicals and a play by myself. And there was nothing bad about that. In fact, I met someone online, a young woman, who said, oh, I love going places by myself. I don't have to deal with other people's stuff. I could just, you know, show up. But how that was. I went back to my therapist. Actually, I'd been in therapy a long time, and I went back to her to help me with this loss of not just my husband, but of all these people that suddenly vanished. And I embraced something I was never really good at. It was that I have an amazing family by way of my husband. And I really embraced them in a way I didn't think I could. I wasn't that oriented towards family.

E (17:21)

Nancy, I'm going to have to pause you there just for time, but we really appreciate your call and sharing your story. I'm sure that a lot of people out there will find it very help. We got to take a break. We're here with Matt Lundquist. When we come back, we're going to take more of your calls, talk about some more strategies to deal with fomo. We'll be right back. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar here with Matt Lundquist, who's the founder and clinical director of Tribeca Therapy. And we're talking about fomo, which is the fear of missing out. And listeners, we're taking your calls and your texts. Do you experience F, especially summer fomo? Because we know at this time of year, there's a lot going on social media, a lot of people having exciting plans. Does social media play a factor for you in those feelings? And what strategies do you have for dealing with those feelings? Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We'd love to hear from you. We just got a text, Matt, that I'd love to get your take on. It says, I don't have fomo, but I find the people in my family that do exhausting. We can never keep it simple or spontaneous. Everything is an event, constant. Having to go to every new restaurant or best vacation. It's all the same after a while. Anyway, this year, I stayed home on two of my holiday breaks, even though it upset some. I needed some alone time so much. And I'm wondering if this is actually like a healthy text of saying, setting up boundaries. What do you think?

D (18:51)

Yeah, you know, I think we've maybe invented a kind of new. A new concept here, which is sort of FOMO by proxy, which is the. Your text are kind of having this experience of. Of having to kind of accommodate other people's sense of this. I think this is a perfect example of saying no and setting a boundary in that way. I'll cosine, Kusha, what you're saying, which is, I think that trying to accommodate somebody else's way of operating in the world, that maybe isn't so healthy for them. And that doesn't need to come necessarily with a judgment for them, but a judgment for you, I think makes a lot of sense. And so I think getting wrapped up in someone else's sense that they need to always be, you know, at the event or doing the cool thing or doing something better, I think can be its own kind of drag. And so it seems like your listener has come up with a great solution, which is to kind of just participate in that some of the time. Yeah.

E (19:47)

Jess in Manhattan, you're on the show. Hi, welcome.

G (19:52)

Hi. I heard when I was first coming on that something about distorted reality of social media. So when you are in a good mood, you should look at things that make you. That you are worried that might make you upset Be in a good mood, be well, be well, wishful for the people that are going away. But also in summer, there's a lot more you can do outside. I think winter is more difficult when people go on ski trips and everything, because in summer there's so many places to bring your kids for free. You can go out, you can not even be on your phone at all. You're not sitting at home. You don't have to. So I really think that it's an opportunity to not believe that people are really posing for their. For the social media, which I think a lot of times it's some people's jobs to just make their life look really great and that's what they want people to perceive. So you can not look at it when you're in a bad mood and look at it. To wish them well and bring your kids outside. That's it.

E (20:53)

Jess, thanks so much for that call. We just got this text. It says, matt, this kind of talks to what you were pointing out earlier. With age, my FOMO has turned into Jomo. Joy of missing out. There's a couple funny emojis after that. So I just want to give a shout out to that caller. When I was listening to Jess, I was thinking about how you have to be in the right mindset when you're looking at social media. It makes me think of kids and teens because I think FOMO can be particularly acute for that category. They're having an especially hard mental health time right now. According to the cdc, this is a quote. Youth in the US Are experiencing a mental health crisis with rates of depression increasingly dramatically over the past few years. There's a 2023 CDC report that found in 2021, three in five US teen girls felt persistently sad or hopeless. That's 57%. Break that down for a little bit for us, Matt. Like, why do you think teens are particularly vulnerable?

D (21:49)

And we really see it in our practice. We talk to parents of kids and teens all the time and certainly work with a lot of kids and teens and hear from them. I think Covid was not, if not the whole story there, but was certainly a big part of that. There are, you know, young people who missed graduation, missed full years of their high school experience, missed certain rites of passages and, you know, a piece of this. And I'm really thinking about that with kind of all of this conversation. A piece of this is, you know, sometimes we do miss out on things, and some of those things are meaningful. You know, we can talk about, you know, a Gucci bag or a trip to Europe. But we can also talk about, you know, missing out on spending time with, you know, a parent that's died or a loved one who we've lost. We can talk about missing an experience because of, you know, disability or being immunocompromised and some of the loss of COVID You know, I think if we're going to talk about missing out, I think we have to acknowledge that it does happen, that we miss out. And a piece of the emotional work around this, this is to acknowledge that and to grieve. And so I think young people do need help with that among help with a lot of other things, which is to have adults and caring people around them who can kind of receive their frustration and acknowledge and be with them through a process of the disappointments of opportunities that are missed. I think that's one of a whole lot of factors that are contributing to some of those mental health statistics you're talking about. But I think grief is an important one. And really being adults who can do that with them, rather than bringing our own reluctance to this or our own FOMO by proxy, as we were saying, but being able to say, yeah, I think we lost something there.

E (23:29)

I'm sorry, that last part I want to break down a little bit. What does being there look like if you're an adult and you see a teen struggling?

D (23:36)

Yeah, well, I think one of the big challenges that I talk with parents about in your last caller's talking about how many things are free or more accessible in the summer. And I think to speak to the economic piece of this, which isn't the whole story, I think sometimes what parents try to do, and it comes from just such an understandable and really loving place, is, you know, when your child says, hey, I feel like I'm missing out. You know, we didn't get ice cream or everybody else, you know, went to the Hamptons, but we're going to the city beach or, you know, other people have, you know, these nice things that we don't have. And I think often what parents try to do, understandably, is to give their kid those things or give their kid some kind of version of those things. And again, when you can do that, that seems great. But I think to also acknowledge, yeah, there's a loss here and whether. Whether we could do something dramatic to try to make up for that or compensate. Nonetheless, one of the things that we do need to learn to do is to miss out, is to learn to be without. Obviously, your caller who mentioned Jomo seems to have mastered that. But this idea of kind of learning to tolerate loss and disappointment and missing out is an important part of kind of being. Being a whole human.

E (24:47)

Yeah. Let's go to Linda in New Jersey. Hey, Linda, it sounds like you have a routine you like to go through.

H (24:54)

Yes, this is a great conversation. I am a teacher in middle school, so I am very familiar with fomo. I live it every day with my students. But as a routine that I learned from an adult when I was 8 years old, and I'm far from 8, was your hands are clenched, your fists are clenched, and you just take out, one by one, the things you're thankful for pull out. You know, you unfurl your fingers. Thankful for this. I'm thankful for this. They can be small things, big things, and all of a sudden you've got 10 things you're thankful for, and your hands are open and you're free from fomo.

E (25:36)

Oh, that's wonderful. Do you practice that with your students at all, Linda?

H (25:40)

I do that. I tell my students that practice. And I still, to this day, and I'm decades from eight. I still do that myself because your previous caller, the widow, I was widowed very young, and her explanation of what happens to friends and your life is very true to the truth, very close to the truth. People just drop you. So I had to deal with a lot of fomo. I had a wonderful husband. And one last thing I'd like to mention, as a school, all of our parents and teachers are reading the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. And I would recommend that I think we have to really understand our young people are dealing with FOMO in a way that we, as adults, we have other ages, we have other methods, we have other experiences, and we must look after our younger generation. This is not just a conversation point. This is a life and death issue, and we must.

E (26:48)

Yeah, thank you so much for that. I appreciate that. I got to pause you there just for time, but thank you for that book recommendation and for that exercise. And it brings me, you know, to that idea of gratitude, Matt, that I think is so crucial. You want to talk about that a little bit?

D (27:02)

Yeah, I think about gratitude, and I think her exercise is a great example of that. I would take this even more broadly, which is, I think when we're focused on what we're missing out on, of course, we're not focused on the opportunities that do, in fact, exist. And so, you know, you're not invited to an event, you could decide to kind of spend. Spend those hours feeling sad and people do that. And sometimes that's a struggle that people work through. But to think about a plan B, what's an event, what's something that fits with budget that I am invited to, who are the people in my life? You know, I think your. Your caller earlier who was talking about her experience of losing her husband, you know, what she was eventually able to do was one, discover lots of meaningful things that she could do on her own and also discover some new people, even as she lost some old friends in that process. Again, that needs to be grieved. It's not instead of. It's not. Don't feel bad. Think of great things you're grateful for. It's. It does feel bad. This is a loss. It is disappointing to miss out on something and also think about the possibilities for making meaning that exist. Because, of course, for most of us, they're everywhere.

E (28:09)

I'm looking at the clock, and we gotta wrap up soon. But I wanna make sure that I ask before we go out, what are some signs that your FOMO might be something that you might want to seek professional help to address when it reaches the point that you might need a helping hand there?

D (28:22)

Yeah, one of the things that we talk about a lot is when people experience something that's got a lot of buzz, kind of in the zeitgeist. And FOMO is a great example. It's a word, a concept that kind of, you know, you say, oh, I'm having these difficult feelings. Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of people have that. It's called fomo. I think one of the downsides of that is that it can hide when somebody, as you're raising, is having a real particular struggle with that. I think that there's kind of an extreme version of this that probably we might want to call something else that might speak to, you know, losses from early life or experiences of being perhaps rejected by family members or not fully included in the ways that we need, you know, children need to healthily develop and grow into kind of full adults, and that needs a particular kind of attention, and I think probably some good therapy as a space to do that and something beyond some of these great tips that your callers and texters are recommending.

E (29:18)

Thank you for that. And thanks to everyone who did call. We have Matt Lundquist, who is the founder and Clin director of Tribeca Therapy. Thanks for sitting with us, taking the calls and for all that helpful information.

D (29:30)

So nice to be here.

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