C (3:54)

Listeners, we want to hear from you. How do you handle rejection in your professional life? Our Phone lines are open. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. How have you handled professional rejection differently as you've gotten older? If you work in a more creat, how do you not let rejection get to you? What advice do you have about how we should try to use professional rejection to our advantage? Our phone lines are wide open. 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. You can join us on air or you can text to us at that number. My guest is Anna Holmes, contributing writer for the Atlantic and author of the article the Upside of Professional Rejection. We want to make this clear. We're not talking about romantic rejection, which is a whole, a whole different thing when you're talking about professional rejection. What are the unique qualities of a professional rejection that, that can be hurtful.

B (4:56)

I suppose. Well, I suppose it's, it's, it's how the rejection happens. Yes. The ways in which it's, it's communicated. And I also, I also want to make a distinction and it's something I think I need to, you know, remember myself between failure and rejection and maybe someone's disbelief in you. Failure to me has been experienced as something that's more objective. Like I either, you know, succeeded in something or I Didn't succeed in something. Of course, whether I succeed in something may have to do with other people's opinions of me. But let's say failing at a job or writing a piece that doesn't do well feels like a failure. And that's something, actually, that's much more likely to make me feel demoralized, dejected, whereas a rejection feels much more subjective. It's one person's opinion or maybe multiple people's opinions. And, you know, when I talked about the idea of getting a fire lit under one's, you know, I think. I think that, you know, for me, perhaps being rejected by a person or persons because it's subjective makes me want to prove them wrong. And then there's disbelief in something. I can give an example. Well, the example I just gave of the book I wanted to write, I experienced that with my collaborator is both a rejection and her disbelief in the idea. And again, that feels more subjective and therefore something that I can perhaps move through, push through, and overcome.

A (6:40)

You write about the way that US culture shapes how Americans consider rejection. What about American culture makes rejection maybe more difficult to face?

B (6:54)

Well, I think that there's a kind of ethos that's existed in American culture and politics of picking oneself up by one's bootstraps. The idea of overcoming obstacles. One of the things I mentioned in the piece was Ronald Reagan's exhortation to try and try again. The idea of kind of American independence. All these things help to feed into the idea that we can persist, survive, succeed. And those are not necessarily bad ideas to be promoting. But I think that what they don't take into account are systemic obstacles that make success for many of us more out of our control than we may want them to be or we might believe.

A (7:49)

Let's take a couple of calls. Maria online, too, is calling in from Clifton, New Jersey. Hi, Maria, thanks for taking the time to call.

B (7:56)

All of it.

D (7:58)

Yeah, no problem. Thank you for taking the call and thanks for the discussion. I actually wanted to share how I personally moved through professional rejection. As a very spiritual person, I've always believed that if a door closes for me, then that opportunity wasn't meant for me or just not at that time. And so I think about it in terms of maybe there's a person or a circumstance at that new job or in that new position or this creative endeavor that would actually be harmful to me at some point or detract away from my success, and I'm being redirected to something that is actually meant for me.

C (8:34)

Maria, what a Good way to think. Thanks so much for calling in. What are some different ways that we can think about rejection? Maria offered her interpretation, which I love. What do you think about it, Anna?

B (8:46)

I love that interpretation as well, to be honest. And I'm going to, like, kind of take it forward, I think, in myself, because I have bought into the idea, unfortunately, that that rejection can be and often is a last word, which is part of the reason why I'm trying to kind of reframe rejection as part of my New Year's resolution. But the idea that it's a door, that a door closing is the. The opening of another one, I think that's a lot about faith. And I know that your caller talked about, you know, her spiritual practice, and I think those things are very much related. Having faith that an obstacle is not. We don't have to see it as an obstacle, but as a kind of a road that we need to take or that we're being forced to take. I'm not sure if that's. If that's making sense, but, you know, I think that that's a great way to think of. Of rejection. I think that, you know, the idea that I kind of put forth in the piece and that I subscribe to, I would reiterate that seeing rejection as an opportunity to prove someone wrong. I'm not necessarily, you know, promoting the idea of having a real chip on one's shoulder, but I do like the idea of personally of taking someone's no and turning it into a yes or showing them up. Perhaps that was actually one of the potential headlines for the piece was the art of showing someone up. Maybe that sounded too negative.

C (10:23)

We'll get into that in just a minute, Mark. Let's talk to Mark before we go to break. Mark's calling us from Westport, Connecticut. Hi, Mark. Thanks for calling in.

E (10:32)

Hi, how are you?

F (10:33)

Thanks for taking my call. Are we on the air?

A (10:36)

You're on the air. Go for it.

F (10:38)

Oh, great. Wonderful. I got some great advice decades ago from, of all people, a salesperson who told me that when you get rejected, it's not personal. You simply asked on the wrong day. So your perseverance to ask on different days makes a big difference. And to show an example of how that worked, I tried very hard to get an exhibition. I'm an artist, amongst other things, at the United nations. And I persisted four years, and we got an exhibition two Novembers ago, which is now traveling around the world called Signs of Compassion for those that don't see or don't hear Mark, that's excellent.

A (11:15)

Thank you so much for your calling, your message and for calling in. What did you think of what Mark had to say?

B (11:22)

I like the idea of persistence. I think there are definitely moments in my life when I have taken rejection as an opportunity to not just keep trying, but to believe that eventually it will work out or that I can make it work out, even if it's years and years and years later. For example, I've had ideas for, let's say, magazine pieces that I believed in that were rejected and rejected multiple times. And eventually an opportunity set sometimes came around for me to try them again and they eventually, quote, unquote, worked, you know, or, or I realized that actually something that I thought of, you know, maybe needed to be a magazine piece was actually better executed as a, let's say a podcast or an audio or an audio project. And so I think, you know, having the time there, there's, there's, there's immediately, you know, jumping into action after a rejection and trying to move, you know, know, the ball forward, so to speak. But there's also something to be said with, for, for sitting with it and, and waiting to see if an opportunity presents itself where you can put forth an idea professionally and have it not be rejected. Perhaps the world just wasn't ready for your idea when you first pitched it.

A (12:36)

We're talking to Anna Holmes, contributing writer for the Atlantic and author of the article the Upside of Professional Rejection. We're also hearing from you.

C (12:45)

Are you someone that's good at handling rejection or do you find it hard? How have you handled rejection differently as you've older? What advice do you have about how we can rethink our process of personal rejection? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We'll have more after a quick break.

A (13:14)

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Anna Holmes. She's a contributing writer for the Atlantic and she's the author of the article the of Professional Rejection. Anna, I want to read a couple of texts to you. This says a wise friend recently said to me, rejection is protection. When we were both rejected from position that we were both qualified for. This one says, a friend once told me to save all the rejection letters in a pile. With rejection letters being mailed and emailed. Now I just keep a list. I also find them sometimes, not always, but sometimes helpful in helping me clarify my thinking.

B (13:58)

You know, it's funny because one of.

A (14:00)

The.

B (14:02)

Experts that I interviewed for the piece, you know, talked about repeatedly the idea of rejection as being information, to take it as information, to take it as, to not take it personally, as one of your other callers said. But yeah, to see it as information that you can then use to your benefit as you might rethink something or in the case of the person who just texted in, you know, clarify one's thinking. And I think, you know, removing the personal aspect from, or the taking it personally aspect from rejection and seeing it as information or trying to see it as information is also really helpful. I have a harder time with that, as I probably have made clear right now, because I do take it very personally and I do find, you know, as I said, some sort of, you know, energy behind taking it personally. But yeah, if you, if you look at it as information, it, I think it can help set you up for success in the, in the future.

C (14:58)

Let's talk to David from Brooklyn. Hi, David, thanks for taking the time to call all of it today.

F (15:04)

Thank you. Good to be here. Love your show.

A (15:07)

Thanks.

F (15:08)

I thought you should talk to, talk about all of the professional musicians and actors who get rejected all the time because, like, if you're really hitting it, you're getting a job every 10 auditions. So there's a lot of people telling you no, and there's a lot of information coming back. But you certainly have to have a, my friends have a wide varieties of way wide variety of ways of dealing with that rejection. But it's certainly something that you have to have or you just can't, you can't try and do that.

C (15:40)

David, thank you for calling. Let's talk to William from Madison, New Jersey. Hi, William, thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

D (15:48)

Hi. I wanted to ask our guest if she could respond to how entrepreneurs think about it. I used to teach entrepreneurship at the college level and we talk about our time as our most valuable asset and rejection as a good thing because that means we're not wasting time on something that's not going anywhere. And I was curious about thoughts on that.

C (16:12)

Yeah, that's interesting. How do you know not to just keep going at it, Anna?

B (16:18)

How do I know not to just keep going at it? Well, you know, it sounds a little bit like your caller is touching on the idea that I think is very popular or was very popular among Silicon Valley types of failure. You know, seeing failure as. Seeing failure as, you know, moving forward in that, you know, trying new things, breaking things. You know, this is just, there's a Certain vernacular or commentary that I've. That I'm somewhat aware of in the tech industry about, you know, breaking things and failing. And so I think that what he's talking about, you know, touches on that. And I like. I like the framing of. I like the framing of rejection as indicative of not wasting time. Certainly when I'm being rejected, I am definitely not wasting time. I am trying. And it might feel in the moment like I wasted my time because of the fact that I got rejected. But yeah, I think the kind of reframing that a lot of the callers are suggesting is really helpful. I now wish I had interviewed a musician or actor. I do think that writers get rejected a lot. But I do think, also think that musicians and actors, you know, oftentimes get rejected in the very moment that they're doing the audition. But there's one thing I wanted to mention, which is that I think we could also be better about doing the rejecting, saying no to people when our boundaries or interests or what have you feel like they're being pushed up against. There was a piece that I actually did for the Atlantic years ago about the power of saying no. And I respect people to a certain degree who say no to me because they are doing, especially women, because they're doing something we've been socialized not to do, which is to refuse, reject, et cetera. So there's kind of two sides to this. There's the kind of reframing of rejection as something that can be positive or energizing. And then there's also depending on how the rejection is communicated, there's something admirable and something we can take from a rejection in terms of how it's given.

A (18:34)

It's interesting because when you're thinking about rejection, you're talking also about learning to live with discomfort. And I'm curious how that is panning out going forward. Because a lot of people during the pandemic, it was about self care and taking care of oneself and people prioritizing themselves. How do you square the needs to embrace the discomfort in rejection and live with it versus self care culture?

B (19:01)

Okay, that's something I haven't thought about before. I think that. Well, I don't think that those things are at odds. I think that embracing rejection or feeling discomfort is part of self care. One of the experts I spoke to talked about the ability to embrace discomfort as being something similar to what we or how we approach exercise, which is, you know, no risk, no reward, and that we think of exercise, a lot of us, as being something that feels not great in the moment, but that we see results from, you know, reframing that sense of discomfort as growth. You know, as she put it, that it's a sign that you're pushing yourself, that you're doing something new, that you're developing as a, as a person is, I think, a healthy way and a self care adjacent or related way of dealing with projection.

A (20:02)

Let's take a call from Robin. She's calling from Westwood.

C (20:04)

Hi, Robin.

A (20:05)

Thank you for taking the time to call all of it.

E (20:08)

Oh, hi. This is actually Robin, but not a she.

A (20:11)

Oh, hi, Robin.

E (20:13)

Back by. It's a wonderful conversation. And I had a lifetime of rejections as an actor. Many, many in my early career. But actors are also do other things in order to make a living. And I was weight making a living as waiting tables. And I was waiting tables for a restaurant in downtown Manhattan and it just wasn't going well. I didn't like my manager. My manager didn't like me. A couple things went wrong. He showed up one day after, after a shift, sat down with me and said, you know, some, some waiters have an infinite amount of tables to wait on in their life and they're like, you know, the long term guys. And some people have other things to do and they have a finite amount of tables. And I think you may have reached your finite amount of tables in your life that you can wait on. And after I got over the sting of being fired from the job months and months, and as the years went by, I realized this guy was my guardian angel. He looked at me from a completely different perspective and realized I wasn't supposed to be there. And he was absolutely correct. I never waited on another table in my life. And I went on to other things in show business, but that guy still sits with me on my left shoulder.

A (21:35)

That is awfully nice of you to share that with us, Robin. We appreciate it. That was interesting. Anna, back to your. You were saying it's about how you say no to somebody.

B (21:47)

I love that anecdote. I love the idea that he's still sitting on the, on the caller's shoulder because, yeah, how we, how we receive rejection is one thing and how we communicate it or how it's communicated to us is again, another, but also so related. I think that there's a way to reject and to be rejected that's benevolent, that's respectful, that takes into account a person's strengths and weaknesses. I would like to think that the caller that we just called in probably, you know, experiences rejection as A rejecter differently because he experienced it as the rejectee. And you know, it. It can be, it can be a wake up call. Ideally it's a gentle wake up call. But you know, one of the individuals I spoke to, spoke to for the piece said that, you know, sometimes we're just, it's just not going to work out. Sometimes we're just not the right person. And you know, that escalating our commitment to a failing course of action can dig a hole even deeper. I would like to think that we can all have those kind of guardian angels who are directing us elsewhere when they can see more objectively that something's not right for us.

C (23:03)

This text says when I've gotten rejected for jobs or opportunities that I really, really want, I just say to myself that I will outlast you, gatekeeper, and I will return and try again and whoever has replaced you will be at my door.

B (23:20)

Ye. That's, that's kind of the attitude that I have, which is again to, to get a little, to get to kind of bristle at rejection and want to like show somebody up. There was. And again, even, even disbelief, which I, which I think of as a kind of form of rejection, although a little bit more muted. I can use another example from my life, which is that I had an interesting magazine story idea and I wanted to see it, you know, have a second life, ideally as a TV show or a movie. And I pitched it to a talent manager who said, well, it's an interesting idea, but you'd have to write it for this particular magazine to create a piece of intellectual property. And she sounded very dubious that I could do that because it was a pretty high profile magazine that's hard to get pieces into. And I thought, I'm going to show her. And three years later it happened. I published the piece that I wanted to in the magazine that I wanted to. It hasn't been made into a movie, but maybe that's next. We'll see.

C (24:22)

Would you call that spite, which you did?

B (24:25)

Yeah, yeah, I'd say it's spite a little bit. Although I wasn't angry at her. I just, I just.

C (24:31)

It was light spite.

B (24:33)

It was light spite, yes. But there's. There is such, there's such a thing as too much spite. Yeah.

C (24:40)

We have been discussing professional rejection. The name of the piece is the Upside of Professional Rejection. It is by Anna Holmes, a contributing writer for the Atlantic. Anna, thank you so much for sharing your reporting and sharing your story with us.

B (24:58)

Thanks so much for having me.

G (25:00)

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