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All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here on today's show. Filmmaker Susanna Herbert is here to talk about her documentary Natchez. It's about how the Mississippi city is reckoning with its vision of the past.
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We'll also talk to lawyer and author.
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Elliot Williams about his new book, Five Bullets, the story of Bernie Goetz, New York's explosive 80s and the subway vigilante trial that divided the nation.
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And we'll talk about a new exhibit.
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At Poster House that looks at how the Italian dictator Mussolini used art and propaganda to gain power. That's our plan.
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So let's get this started with blended families. More than a third of US Families are blended and still step parenthood is a role that comes with it. From discipline, disagreements to loyalty, confusion, there are unique challenges that can create tension even when everyone has the best intentions. Psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernau has spent decades studying step families and what actually helps them succeed. She's the author of three books including Surviving and Thriving in Step Family Relationships and the step family handbook. Dr. Patricia Papernau joins me. Welcome. Dr.
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C
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
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B
Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you part of a blended family? Are you a step parent, a stepchild or co parenting, trying to make it all work? What's been perhaps the challenging part of step parenthood is it discipline, boundaries, loyalty, finding your role? What surprised you along the way? Our phone lines are wide open. The number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 W NYC. We'd like you to join this conversation. You can also reach out to us on social at all of it wnyc. What questions, Doctor, should someone ask oneself if they find themselves getting into a serious relationship with a partner who has little kids or tweens or young adults?
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C
Well, I think the first thing is to educate yourself. It turns out that stepfamilies are are fundamentally different from first time families. And unfortunately, there's a lot of rather wretched stuff out there that's not very helpful. There's not a lot that's available, that's evidence based. My couple of books are two of them. The good news is we know what works. The bad news is that the information is mostly siloed among researchers. So I'm somewhere between passionate and desperate to put this information, information into the hands of people who can use it. And I'm really glad to be here.
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A
How can someone tell if their partner partner is ready to be involved with kids with their kids?
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C
Well, I think the first thing to know is that in a step family the stepparent does not enter as an equal. It's not possible. In a first time family, the adult couple has some time together before kids arrive. And kids arrive usually only one at a time. And really important for our story, they arrive hardwired to attach to both of their parents and vice versa. In a step family, what you've got is a parent and a child who've got that shared attachment. They've got the experience of loving and being loved. They have shared understandings about what's a mess and what's an okay cost for a pair of sneakers. And step parents enter as outsiders to all of that. And so what we know is that step parent, stepchild, positive step parent, stepchild relationships are really important for kids, really important. But. And parents are the secure base. So when a kid needs something, they're going to come in and talk to mom or dad. And in a first time family that would include both mom and dad. In a second time family, the parent has to turn towards their child and away from their step parent partner. So part of what you need to know as a step parent is can you bear this? Can you? Because it's not going to probably change a lot. It will probably get better over time. It will not get better when you first move in together. It will probably get worse because these changes are huge for kids. So to really sort out, am I okay being able sometimes to turn away, go for a bike ride, go be with my aunt Grace who adores me, take a knitting class while my partner turns toward their child. And when I need attention, am I able to reach rather than clobbering, you know, being an outsider, we're not wired for this. We are neurobiologically wired to expect the people close to us to turn towards us. So when our partner turns away, it's dysregulating. Really easy to say, why did you do that? How could you be so selfish? Your kids are really self centered, et cetera. That's not going to get you a hug. You best Better ask later. And it turns out out of kids eyesight. Could I have a hug? That was, that was hard for me. And your partner probably won't get it because they're the stuck insider, you're the stuck outsider. They're totally different experiences.
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B
When you're thinking about introducing your child to a partner, a partner who's going to be a part of a family, part of a blended family, what are some of the best common practices?
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C
Take it slow. The adults are excited, you are eager to move forward. And study after study after study finds that the adults move way too fast for the kids. So take it real slow and give kids lots of warning. You know, happy surprise is we're getting a new puppy. It is not a happy surprise that Jane stayed over last night. She's here at. It is not a happy surprise that we're getting married next month. Kids need a lot, a lot of warning for changes. So Jane is coming over for dinner on Wednesday night. She's going to stay for dinner and go home. And on Tuesday night you remind them Jane's coming over tomorrow night. If you decide Jane is moving in, you're going to give lots of warning. Jane's moving in in four months. That's going to make some changes. Let's talk about what's not going to change. You'll always be my kids. Your mom will always be your mom. She will not replace your mom. That is a really important message for kids. It's a really important message for step parents. And it's a very important message to reassure your kid's other parent. Because when an ex partner recouples, it's very scary, especially for moms. You know, we have this motherhood mandate that you can only be one mom and you have to be the best. And in step families, kids have two female figures. One is mom and one is stepmom. They're often quite different and there needs to be room for both.
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B
This is a bigger picture question and.
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A
Maybe it's a question for people to think about themselves. But as an adult, can a person.
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B
Deal with being sort of the number two in the relationship because the kid's always going to be number one?
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C
Well, I think a couple of things. One is I have this thing I called old bruises. You know, if you. This is bumpy. You know, close relationships are bumpy. You get disappointed, right? Your partner does not get exactly what you were thinking and they make a boo boo. And there are lots more bumps in a step family. And being an outsider is a big bump. If there's already a bruise there. When you get bumped in that arm, it's going to be a lot more upsetting. So if you were the outsider in your family of origin, it's going to be a lot harder. I was actually the stuck insider in my family or of origin. I was the caretaker to everybody in a high conflict family and I was fine as a step parent. What was hard for me was when I recoupled and I was torn between taking care of my new partner who was needed attention and taking care of my kid. And that was more anxious for me. So it depends partly on what your old bruise was and better better if you don't have an old bruise in the wrong place.
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A
I'm joined by psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernau, a leading expert on blended family. She's here to explain why step parenthood can be challenging and what helps families thrive. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you part of a blended family? Are you a step parent, a stepchild, a co parent? You're just trying to make it work. And someh what's been the hardest part of navigating step parenthood? Is it discipline? Is it boundaries? Finding your role? What surprised you along the way? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. You can call us up or you can send us a text at that number. Here's a good question for you. Doctor. This text says my parents separated when my sister and I were both over 18 and no longer living at home. But both my parents remarried people with younger children and essentially became absorbed by those families. I feel a bit nomadic and without a core family now. But as an adult, not sure how to bring it up with my parents.
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C
And you know, that is so often the experience that it's because parent child relationships are forever. And here's the other thing. Parents parent child relationships, close, warm ones are really important for kids well being and step families, including for young adults and adult stepchildren. And study after study after study finds that when parents recouple, kids lose time and attention. Partly adults in love are just as bonkers as teenagers are. But also here you're having to share with younger children who are absorbing. So the question is how to bring it up and can you bring it up without clobbering? That's part of the skill. Gee, dad, I'm so glad you have a new family. I'm glad you seem really happy. Adults really want to know their kids are happy for them even when they're usually not. But it may help to start that way. I'm really happy for you. I'm missing you. You know, I may be an adult. It turns out you're still really important to me. Could we spend more time together? Could we please go out to dinner together sometimes? Could we take walks together?
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A
That's a lovely invitation and also explains a lot about how you're feeling.
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C
Exactly. Without clobbering and without withdrawing. It takes a lot of muscle, it takes a lot of skill to. To navigate in these families. And by the way, struggling step families and successful step families face the same challenges. Successful step families, research after research after research have better skills and you can see why you need them.
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A
Let's talk to Tony, who's calling in. Tony's calling from Manhattan. Hi, Tony. Thanks for making the time to call all of it.
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D
Hi, how are you? It's a great, fascinating subject. I've run the gamut. My parents were divorced when I was one and two more different people on the planet should have never been brought together to. To make me. But they made me and so I. And my father remarried when I was four. I have four siblings, so I, I never wanted to be a divorced parent. That was one of my goals, never to be divorced. Well, unfortunately, that did not work out when anticipated it. And my daughters are very similar to me personality wise, but they develop this kind of irrational anger towards me and I kept kind of.
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B
Oh no, we lost Tony.
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C
We lost him.
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B
Well, he was talking about anger towards him.
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C
Yep.
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B
Do you have any thoughts about what to do when the anger is coming towards you?
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C
Well, here's where skills really matter. Get yourself really grounded. Try to get as calm and centered as you can and know that what will help the most is if you can slow down and try to understand where your girls are coming from. Help me understand what you're angry at. And when your child says something even outrageous, you do not say, but you will feel pulled to say, but that won't help you say, gee, what I do understand. Find what you do understand. I understand that you felt that when I left, I, you know, did polka, I stepped on your toes, I. Help me understand. You're going to look for what you do understand and what your daughters are saying and you're going to tell them what you do understand. And you're not going to add, but. And that's hard. It's going to take some muscle, but that's your best pathway to repair.
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B
This text says. Thank you, Dr. Papernau. You had me on the verge of tears from recognition already. Two related questions. How does your guidance vary with adult children and when the other parent is recently deceased?
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C
Okay, let's start with adult children. Whether the kids are grown ups or little kids, really really important parents retain the limit setting rule. Step parents do best. Successful step parents focus on, I call it connection, not correction. Getting to know your step kids, being interested in them, playing with them, doing one to one things with them. Whether you're step kids or adults or kids or little kids. And that's hard for step parents because step parents, parents have that attachment. Kids behavior is not as upsetting to parents as it is to step parents. Step parents all over the world want more limits and boundaries. Parents want more love and understanding. So this is hard and probably nothing more important than you cannot step into limit setting. You can skillfully say gee that was hard for me. I'd love it if you'd say hello. You cannot say you will say hello and be respectful to me. So whether the kids are little or big, take time to get to know them. Encourage your partner. If you're the woman and your partner is a male, dads lose contact with their kids. Encourage your partner to spend one to one time with his kids. And during that time you go off, you spend one to one time with your step kids. When a parent has died, you know it's still the same structure and the belief and the wish often is that step parents could step in and replace the step parent, the deceased parent when the kids are really really young, like two, three, sometimes that works. Although it comes back to my you when the kids are teens, mostly kids do not want a replacement parent. Child relationships are forever. What kids need is the adults to support their ongoing connection with that parent. Having photos around, talking about them, Knowing that at birthdays and holidays and the year anniversary of the parent's death, that parent is going to be there and talk about being the outsider and sharing with another that that parent, that deceased parent needs to part of the family. And if you can do that, kids will do okay. And the other thing to know is it's something that's called the myth of closure. This is Pauline Boss's work. Kids do not come to an end of grieving. That hole stays there. And you support kids best by accompanying them, you know, having photos, having a place for special things. There's a thing, a Jewish tradition called a Yahrtzite candle yard site. It's a little glass about drink juice glass size white candle. It burns for 24 hours on the anniversary of the parent's death. It's incredibly comforting, all about remembering, helping kids do that on birthdays. How did your mom celebrate birthday at a wedding? I know you would have wanted your dad with you. How would you like to have it with you? That's, that's and for kids, sometimes sharing with a new parent's new partner is harder because they've already lost somebody. Yeah.
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A
I'm joined by psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernau. She's a leading expert on blended families. We're here to explain why step parenthood is challenging and what can help those families thrive. We'll have more of your questions after the break. This is ALL OF it.
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B
You're listening to ALL of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Steward. My guest is psychologist Dr. Patricia Peppernow, a leading expert on blended families. She's here to help us sort of figure out why step parenthood is challenging and what can help those families thrive. Listeners, we'd like to hear from you. Let's talk to Charles from Charlottesville, Virginia. Hi, Charles. Thanks for calling all of it. Tell us a little bit about your family.
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D
Hi. Well, I've been involved in two blended families in my life. The first one was an Arabic woman and her two Arabic children. And the second one, my current wife and my stepchild. She is a Greek background but is very Americanized, you might say. At any rate, so I would just point out, culture can add a real interesting component if you're trying to be a stepfather or stepmother to the other side of your family. In any event, my personal opinion, and I'd be interested to hear what your guest thinks. From my experience, the best thing for the new parent to do is I think, stay clear of making or trying to formulate discipline, things like that. Whatever directions or whatever that the child needs to follow in the family I think should be left to the natural parent. You should be a really strong ally and supportive. But I think getting directly involved can create problems. And for example, if my son comes to me and says, dad, I want to do this and it's not a clear thing to me, then I'll say, well, look, we're going to wait till your mom gets home and we can talk about it together. But I find that deference is oftentimes the best form of valor, so to speak. And I appreciate you taking the call.
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C
You have figured out what study? We have 50 studies and counting and you figured it out on your own, which is this. The parent needs to maintain the limit setting role. You're the supporter and you're it's a very important role it turns out, by the way, there's a wide range of positive step parent roles and only a minority are parent like. Mostly it's some variation of warm adult, friend, supporter, helping with homework and school, being like an uncle, like an aunt. Those are very important roles for kids. I think something like 12%. It's a smaller percentage, percentage of stepparents who become like parents and important to know. And you, you've got it. Caller who just called, you got it. You can have a very important role without being the limit center. You got it. Exactly.
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B
I was very interested in what he said about cultural issues.
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C
Yes.
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B
And I saw your ears, your ears perk up. What did, what did that tell you?
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C
Well, first of all, in a first time family, the couple together starts developing a culture and over time, kids come in one by one by one, and the family develops us together, a sense of how we do things. In a step family, you have a parent and child or children who've got their own set of how we do things, and a step parent, with or without his or her kids, that's got their own set of how we do things. So that difference is there. Now add that the likelihood that there are going to be more different cultures, more different class, more different religion in a step couple is higher than in a first time family. So you've got a double whammy of differences. And we're not so good at differences in this culture right now. And it's so important to see if you can stay curious. But what happens is there are these spikes of how could you put white lights on the Christmas tree? Right, right. Christmas trees have colored lights. And if you know that's normal. It's called learning by goofing. Oh, there's another learning by goofing. Okay, tell me about Christmas lights in your family. Because these stories have to be told in Stephanie.
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A
So your point is this, as an adult to say I goofed? Tell me more.
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C
Well, it's a kind of a goof between us that we didn't know about.
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A
Gotcha.
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C
You know, we have to learn by. And oftentimes it wouldn't have occurred to that pair to talk about what color lights on the tree. You know, I mean, white lights. I mean, red colored lights. You know, it's, it's doesn't even have language.
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A
Let me read this text because it gets to my next question. This says, I know a family where the stepmom forces the kids to call her mom and refer to their mother her first name. I know where you're standing in this this seems cruel and pathologically narcissistic to me. Am I overreacting? Can I help? Should I mind my own business? These kids are teenagers, but this has been the situation for several years.
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C
So glad you asked that question because I noticed the color before. It calls his stepson his son, and I don't know if he was quite young and I don't know where the father is.
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A
What do you think about these ideas of like, I'm a bonus parent or should it be descriptive of like my mom's husband or even calling someone by their name? How do you decide?
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C
Well, it. I believe naming needs to be up to kids. This whole thing is not up to kids. This whole thing is wonderful for the adults. It's their choice, not the kids choice. And the step parent maybe wanted to be called mom or dad. It may feel respectful. That's true in some cultures. It may be, you know, I washed their clothes and slept there them to school and back, so that's the least they can do for me. It may be, I feel close to this kid. I'd like them to call me mom or dad. The trouble is, kids have another mom or dad, dead or alive. And when you ask to be called mom or dad as a stepparent, you are putting children in a loyalty bind. And naming is one way you can intensify that loyalty bind or soften it.
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D
It.
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C
So if respect is important, you know, Mr. Bob, Ms. Jane, you know, find. Get creative and find something that works for you that does not compete. Kamala Harris's stepdaughter calls her Mamala. They found the right thing in one of my families. There's daddy and Daddy Dan, where the kids were very young. You know, mostly kids call their stepparents by their first name.
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B
Let's talk to Tom from Manhattan. Hi, Tom. Thanks for calling all of it.
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E
Hi. Well, I'm calling to report on a blended family that's over 40 years old. Now, the separation happened when my girls were 6 and 9. And the next year my present wife came into the picture for some reason or another. And those reasons probably have to do with almost completely her. She was able to forge a relationship that couldn't really be called stepmother. I mean, she was called stepmother but couldn't really be called stepmother because she was the other half of motherhood for these kids. That is, she provided a view of what it meant to be a woman that was complementary but very, very different from their biological mother. And so although there was, you know, the usual kind of divorce hostility that happened in the first five years or.
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D
So.
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E
And stuff to be worked out. As it all went on the family managed to merge with a tremendous amount of love and has always been that way, you know, teenagehood and all that stuff. But it's still. And now there's, now there's six grandchildren and all of the siblings. There's a new. That is my second wife and I had another child so there was a step sibling and, and they all get along wonderfully and see each other all the time.
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B
That sounds like such a beautiful family. Thank you for calling us. This says question regarding step families. Can you please address older couples 60s plus becoming step parents to 20 something. How can this be as successful as possible?
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C
Yes, we call this. The rate of divorce in the United States is at a 50 year low except over 55 where it doubled in the last few decades and continues to rise over age 65. So the likelihood that you are going to be a what I call gray recoupler is that's, that's not unusual. And same thing. Do not compete with their, the child's other parent. It turns out that it is not step family or single parent family. That's worse for kids or divorce. It's conflict, it's feeling I have to choose. It's even feeling tension between the people, the adults in my life. So leave the leave discipline to your partner. Talk to your partner about it but try to be kind and get to know your step kids. You know, what's this been like for you? This is a big change. Divorce, gray divorce has often very hard for kids. What was it like for you? You know, tell me about, you know, you're a baseball player. Tell me about playing baseball. Get to know them. Same thing.
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A
This is a tough issue. An issue. The woman had a child and she found out my stepchild acted out from resentment toward her younger sibling who worshiped her. And I found that to be very hurtful. What do you do when the stepchildren when the children don't necessarily get along?
- [29:29]
C
It's not unusual. We've forced them together. The first thing to know is step siblings are either usually closer or more distant than biological siblings. Really important to be protective. Really important. If there's a much older sibling, step sibling, that child gets enough attention because often the younger kids get more attention especially if there's a new hours child, that child gets more attention. Spend one to one parent child time with that child. And yes, this is not a place for the kids to work it out. Really important to keep it safe. You know, I know you're upset with your, you know, Joni and we need another way to manage this. And I'm going to watch closely.
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A
And let's end this on Jen, who is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Jen, thanks for taking the time to call, all of it.
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F
Thanks, Allison. I really just, I just said to the screener, I wish I'd heard this a decade ago when I became a step parent. My stepson is now 19 years old. I came into his life when he was 8. And just everything I'm hearing today is, is like spot on. I took the advice from my sister in law to really step back in terms of disciplining my stepson and trying to quote, unquote, parent and leaned into, as your guest said, you know, he loves sports. We played sports constantly. I would take him to sporting events and it's just really, you know, it's, it's, it's created like a beautiful almost friendship that we have now. I think he opens up to me in a way that he doesn't with his other parents sometimes because not to say there weren't problems, lots of problems over the last 11 years, but I really had to learn to take some of my issues to my husband and not to him like any kind of disciplinary things. I really had to train myself to be like, this is a conversation with my husband, not with my stepson.
- [31:47]
C
It's a tough, you go and you, you go, you figured it out. And that's part of why you have a positive relationship. You're, I call it an intimate outsider. You know, you're intimate enough, you know, the kids, you're a little more outside. And it is a precious role down the, down the road for, for kids and step parents.
- [32:06]
B
Is there anything that you would want people to take away from this conversation as we wrap up?
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C
Just that positive step parent, stepchild relationship. We have a model now. We do have a model, but you're going to need to educate yourself and staying out of discipline and really getting to know kids is probably one of the most important things you can do. And congratulations to the callers who figured that out on their own.
- [32:32]
B
The name of the book is Surviving and Thriving in Step Family Relationships and the Step Family handbook. It's by Dr. Patricia Papernau. Thank you for joining us. Dr.
- [32:43]
C
Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be able to put this information out.
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G
This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the Science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.