All Of It with Alison Stewart: “How to Pack a Great Lunch”

Date: September 12, 2024
Guests: J. Kenji Lopez-Alt & Deb Perlman (Co-hosts, “The Recipe with Kenji and Deb” podcast)

Episode Overview

This episode of "All Of It" dives into the art and strategy of lunch packing, for both kids returning to school and adults back at work. Host Alison Stewart convenes acclaimed food writers and podcasters J. Kenji Lopez-Alt and Deb Perlman to share practical tips, favorite tools, and philosophies for making lunches that are appealing, satisfying, and realistic—moving beyond the standard PB&J and battling lunch boredom for every age.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lunchbox Philosophies: Variety, Flexibility, and Realism

• Kenji’s Approach (02:32):
  He recommends a “baby-led weaning” philosophy: pack a variety of healthy options, incorporate diverse colors and textures, and let kids choose what they want.

  “Let them choose and don’t really push them… Sometimes they eat all of it and sometimes they eat only the peas and sometimes only the pasta or dessert. The key is to be nonjudgmental…”
  (J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 02:54)

• Deb’s Evolution (03:36):
  Deb describes how her strategy has changed as her children aged. As a default, she relies on bento-style lunches and gives leftovers a starring role, especially for her teenager.

  “We started out very cute, and it’s sort of gone downhill since—or gotten more realistic.”
  (Deb Perlman, 08:16)

2. Common Mistakes & Pitfalls

• Don’t Be Too Aspirational (05:53):
  Both Kenji and Deb warn against packing lunches based on what you wish your children (or you) would eat, rather than what they realistically enjoy.

  "If I push it, it's just going to come back uneaten, which is a waste of everyone's time, and then they're hungry."
  (Deb Perlman, 05:53)

• Situation-Appropriate Packing (04:32):
  Consider how kids eat at school–often distracted and on-the-go. Focus on easy-to-grab, fun-to-interact-with foods, rather than plated meals requiring utensils.

  “Thinking about it as if it’s a meal they’re eating at home… is probably a mistake.”
  (J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 04:32)

3. Essential Tools & Techniques

• Bento Boxes & Thermoses (06:40, 08:48):
  Both guests love compartmentalized lunch containers. Wide-mouth thermoses are excellent for soup, pasta, or stew, especially in winter.

  “We have probably every lunchbox under the sun, but something we like a lot are thermoses with the wide mouth… and the little fold-up spoon or fork.”
  (Deb Perlman, 08:48)

• Keep it Simple, Keep it Interactive (05:08):
  Deconstructed meals and bite-sized foods add fun and autonomy, whether it’s sandwiches kids assemble themselves or toppings for noodles.

4. Lunch Packing Staples & Go-Tos

• Produce and Leftovers (06:40):
  Always stock cut-up fruits and veggies—cherry tomatoes, cucumbers, snackable fruits. Big compartment for leftovers, “satellite” spots for produce and small snacks.

  “…Raw fruits, vegetables and things that… give them more color, texture, and flavor contrast.” (J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 07:07)

• Thermos Lunch Ideas (09:28):
  Hot meals can include pastas (al dente!), soups, or stews. Reheat food piping hot so it cools down nicely by lunchtime for better texture (11:25).

• Handheld Lunches (18:07, 21:10):
  For kids needing a no-fork, no-wrap meal, Kenji touts onigiri/rice balls, assembled with fillings and nori sheets packed on the side for fun, tasty interactivity.

5. Special Dietary Needs & Fun Tips

• Low-Cholesterol, No-Hummus Lunches (09:28):
  Kenji recommends a hearty kale salad with marinated chickpeas and veggies, which holds up well and stays crisp.

• Keeping Food Hot/Cold (10:49):
  Hot tip: heat lunches to piping hot before packing, even if they’re eaten at room temperature later, for better flavor and texture.

• Apple Browning Trick (12:33):
  Listener April shares:

  “Put sliced apples in salted room temperature water to prevent browning, instead of using lemon.”
  (Caller, 12:33)

• Make Lunches Feel Special (14:02):
  Adding a joke card or arranging food playfully—like rice balls with sesame seed eyes—helps kids feel thought of, even if sometimes the lunch is just breakfast leftovers.

6. Adult Lunches—Taking the Boredom Out of Salads

• Grain & Bean Salads (19:13):
  Add textural and flavor variety: toasted nuts, cheese, chopped apples, sourdough on the side. Deb loves udon or buckwheat noodle salads, too.

• Marinated Ingredients (19:34):
  Kenji keeps fridge containers of marinated beans, veggies, or artichokes for flavorful, ready-to-pack punch.

• DIY “Instant Noodles” (23:48):
  Kenji layers pre-cooked noodles, toppings, miso, and dehydrated ingredients in a jar: just add hot water at work for fresh, customized “instant” soup.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Lunch Philosophy:

“You want to make your kid feel like someone’s thinking about them... Everyone wants to feel special.”
(J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 14:02)

“…We’re just speaking purely aspirationally here today.”
(J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 15:22)

On Practical Tips:

“If your kid is a soup eater... that stuff is fantastic in the winter. You could make a big batch of it and they can have it for a few days.”
(Deb Perlman, 08:48)

“Foods are better when they have cooled down to room temperature as opposed to warmed up to room temperature.”
(J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 11:25)

“Lunchables got it right… Deconstructed. Kids like to put things together themselves.”
(J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 15:51)

On Adult Lunch Troubles:

“Don’t discount the cold noodle bowl!”
(Deb Perlman, 20:49)

“Keeping marinated vegetables in the fridge is sort of my trick.”
(J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, 20:44)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kids Lunch Philosophy & Variety: 02:32 – 03:36
• Packing Mistakes & Aspirations: 04:27 – 05:53
• Go-To Lunchbox Items: 06:30 – 07:38
• Lunch Gear & Thermoses: 08:16 – 09:28
• Special Diets and Salad Ideas: 09:41 – 10:49, 19:13 – 20:49
• Keeping Food Warm: 10:49 – 11:25
• Listener Apple Browning Tip: 12:33 – 13:16
• Making Lunch Special/Joke Cards: 14:02 – 15:01
• Dressing Up the PB&J: 16:36 – 16:58
• Handheld Meal Ideas: 18:07 – 21:10
• Favorite Adult Lunches: 23:14 – 24:32

Resource & Community Shoutout

• Listener Kim from Harlem (22:36):
  Recommends “LunchBots” website for lunch ideas and quality containers.

Closing Thoughts

Kenji and Deb's advice balances the aspirational with the practical, focusing not on Instagrammable perfection but on options that actually get eaten, foster a sense of autonomy and pleasure, and work for busy families. Whether for kids or adults, the real secret is variety, flexibility, and a touch of surprise or specialness—even if, some days, the best you manage is wrapping up an old egg sandwich.

Panelists:

• Alison Stewart (Host)
• J. Kenji Lopez-Alt
• Deb Perlman

Podcast: All of It on WNYC

Episode: “How to Pack a Great Lunch” (September 12, 2024)

For recipes, lunch ideas, or to hear more from Kenji and Deb, tune into “The Recipe with Kenji and Deb” wherever you get your podcasts.