Podcast Summary: All Of It with WNYC
Episode: How To Read/Write Poetry
Guest: Uche Nduka (Poet, New School instructor, author of Bainbridge Island Notebook)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Date: April 16, 2024
Episode Overview
This episode, released in celebration of National Poetry Month, delves into both the art of reading and the craft of writing poetry. Host Kusha Navadar engages with poet Uche Nduka to explore how poetry transforms perception, the nature of poetic forms, the musicality of language, the mysterious process of creation, and the lived experiences that inform poetic expression. Through dynamic conversation, readings, and listener interaction, the episode provides both practical guidance and philosophical insight.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. How to Approach Reading Poetry
Timestamp: 01:30 – 04:11
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Openness and Surprise:
- “You have to be ready to be surprised... Poetry keeps surprise alive. It keeps us from getting jaded… Art, the art of poetry... keeps us fresh, it rejuvenates us, it makes us willing to just feel that life is an adventure and curiosity.”
— Uche Nduka (01:39)
- “You have to be ready to be surprised... Poetry keeps surprise alive. It keeps us from getting jaded… Art, the art of poetry... keeps us fresh, it rejuvenates us, it makes us willing to just feel that life is an adventure and curiosity.”
-
Looking Beyond Technique:
- It's not just about rhythm or rhyme; it's about “what does it evoke in your head, in your heart?” — Kusha Navadar (00:41)
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Form as a Container:
- Poetic forms (sonnet, haiku, villanelle, free verse, etc.) are viewed as structures or 'scaffolds' that can be played with and reinvented.
- “You simply look at form as containers in which you pour something... you’ve been given something to make something out of... tweak the nose of those forms, not just to return it as we are given, but to jazz it up a little bit.”
— Uche Nduka (03:00)
- “You simply look at form as containers in which you pour something... you’ve been given something to make something out of... tweak the nose of those forms, not just to return it as we are given, but to jazz it up a little bit.”
- Poetic forms (sonnet, haiku, villanelle, free verse, etc.) are viewed as structures or 'scaffolds' that can be played with and reinvented.
2. Experiencing the Architecture of Poetry
Timestamp: 04:11 – 07:15
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Joy Harjo’s “She Had Some Horses":
- Nduka performs an excerpt, guiding listeners to identify repetition and rhythmic variation as “architectural features” of poetry.
- Harjo’s piece demonstrates how “chant-like” forms can build both structure and emotion.
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Notable Moment:
- “She had horses who were bodies of sand. She had horses who were maps drawn of blood... She had horses who were splintered red cliff.”
— Joy Harjo, recited by Uche Nduka (04:55–06:47)
- “She had horses who were bodies of sand. She had horses who were maps drawn of blood... She had horses who were splintered red cliff.”
3. Music and Rhythm in Poetry
Timestamp: 07:15 – 09:13
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Analogies to Music:
- Sounds of words, the organic rhythm of language, and “hard silences” are integral.
- “You can’t avoid the music of words. Not just the melodic aspect... but even hard silences... there is a contrast, a tension that sustains a poem.”
— Uche Nduka (07:38)
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Reading Aloud:
- “For me... poetry is made alive when we mouth it.”
— Uche Nduka (09:20)
- “For me... poetry is made alive when we mouth it.”
4. Mysticism, Emotion, and the Writer’s Trance
Timestamp: 09:13 – 11:56
- Poetry as Incantation and Trance:
- There is a quasi-mystical process, likened to prayer or ululation, behind both the reading and writing of poetry.
- “There are certain kinds of sounds we can’t just put words to, but still they mean something. And that is what makes people be moved by music… Even when a poet is writing... you surrender to the spirits that bring those words.”
— Uche Nduka (10:01)
5. Navigating Poetic Forms and Creative Freedom
Timestamp: 11:56 – 13:29
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Freedom within Form:
- Nduka prefers a “free willing kind of form,” focusing on musicality, alliteration, and consonance over traditional rhyme schemes.
- “Sometimes I submit, sometimes I resist. And then so in between submission and resistance, that’s where the art takes place for me.”
— Uche Nduka (12:15)
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Inspiration and Craft:
- Poetry is unpredictable, “the poem visits when it likes.”
- “If you're writing an essay... Tell that to a poem. You just laugh in your face.”
— Uche Nduka (13:13)
6. On Writing Poetry: A Moving Target
Timestamp: 14:59 – 16:07
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Poem as a Moving Target:
- “When you start writing a poem, you might have an idea... and then in the process, you are thrown out... The poem decides on the path it wants to follow... The poem is very rebellious, almost like a wild animal.”
— Uche Nduka (14:59)
- “When you start writing a poem, you might have an idea... and then in the process, you are thrown out... The poem decides on the path it wants to follow... The poem is very rebellious, almost like a wild animal.”
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Attentiveness and Non-judgment:
- Practicing “inner deep listening” and “eternal vigilance” is crucial.
- “It's not you engineering, you know, willy nilly, those words... The first call of duty is that you're going to be very vigilant and attentive to what is happening, not just in terms of your mind, but what you're seeing developing on the page.”
— Uche Nduka (16:07)
7. Practical Advice for Writing Poetry
Timestamp: 16:52 – 20:41
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Edit Later:
- “Let it come to you, edit later... you don't rush it.”
— Uche Nduka (16:58)
- “Let it come to you, edit later... you don't rush it.”
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Lawless State of Poetry:
- There are no absolute rules; every poem is unique.
- “Each poem comes with its own cargo... its own baggage and then its own redemptive qualities.”
— Uche Nduka (17:36)
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Vocabulary and Simplicity:
- “You don't need to have high falutin words... The poem attracts what it needs in terms of words, sound, rhythm, shape... Most of the times I just finish writing [a] poem and I'm like, what was that?... It's ambiguous, it's contradictory.”
— Uche Nduka (19:09)
- “You don't need to have high falutin words... The poem attracts what it needs in terms of words, sound, rhythm, shape... Most of the times I just finish writing [a] poem and I'm like, what was that?... It's ambiguous, it's contradictory.”
8. On Spirit and African Writers (Caller Segment)
Timestamp: 20:41 – 23:13
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Spirit (“Awu") in Creativity:
- Nduka discusses the Igbo (“Awu”) and Yoruba (“Eshu”) spiritual concepts, and their importance in his creative process.
- “I'm a servant of awu. It's a spirit that, for me, I see as a benevolent spirit, because the spirit of creativity... even though it has some mischievous aspects.”
— Uche Nduka (22:00)
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African Writers and Global Readership:
- On the limited exposure of African writers in global literary culture:
- “Are they shortchanging themselves?” — Rudolph (Caller) (21:26)
- “Perhaps it’s just the turn of the world... For instance, yes, I teach in New school. I teach Okibo in New School... and Queens College.”
— Uche Nduka (22:46)
9. Original Poem: “Bainbridge Island Notebook”
Timestamp: 23:15 – 24:31
- Nduka shares a new poem from his book, illustrating his philosophical and stylistic points:
- “And what if a poem is a room that has been widely lived in block by block, fugues gnaw at a wet street...”
— Uche Nduka (23:18) - The poem fuses corporeal and cerebral themes, as Nduka explains shortly after.
- “And what if a poem is a room that has been widely lived in block by block, fugues gnaw at a wet street...”
10. Integration of Body and Spirit
Timestamp: 24:47 – 25:14
- “We should never separate the body and the spirit. They both go into one... I believe that they are actually one entity and it's left to us to be able to react and be able to go ahead with whatever it is they're pointing us to.”
— Uche Nduka (24:47)
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
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On Surprises in Poetry:
- “If you wake up every morning and you just feel, oh, I've done it all, I've seen it all, what are you waking up to do?”
— Uche Nduka (01:56)
- “If you wake up every morning and you just feel, oh, I've done it all, I've seen it all, what are you waking up to do?”
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On Rhythms and Silences:
- “A poem needs silence... those spaces in between stanzas, those silences are important.”
— Uche Nduka (08:30)
- “A poem needs silence... those spaces in between stanzas, those silences are important.”
-
On “Show, Don’t Tell” in Poetry:
- “To be honest, when it comes to writing poetry, we say it's a sort of a lawless state because each poem comes with its own cargo... its own redemptive qualities.”
— Uche Nduka (17:36)
- “To be honest, when it comes to writing poetry, we say it's a sort of a lawless state because each poem comes with its own cargo... its own redemptive qualities.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Opening and introduction: 00:41
- Uche Nduka on mindset for reading poetry: 01:39
- On poetic forms and experimentation: 03:00
- Reading Joy Harjo’s “She Had Some Horses”: 04:55
- Discussion of poetry’s musicality and oral tradition: 07:38
- Why we should read poetry aloud: 09:20
- Poetry as incantation, trance, and inspiration: 10:01
- Creative process and poetic forms: 11:56
- Poem as a “moving target”—Nduka’s philosophy: 14:59
- Advice: attentiveness, editing, and vocabulary: 16:07–19:09
- Caller question (Rudolph): Spirit, African writers: 20:41
- Reading from “Bainbridge Island Notebook”: 23:18
- Integration of body and spirit in poetry: 24:47
Summary
This episode provides an immersive and nuanced look at how to both read and write poetry, emphasizing openness, attentiveness, and the willingness to dissolve boundaries—between form and freedom, body and spirit, intention and surprise. Through performance, philosophical exploration, and concrete advice, Uche Nduka and Kusha Navadar invite listeners to see poetry as a living, constantly renewing art form anchored in sound, sensation, and the unpredictable pulse of inspiration.
Listeners come away with not only practical tools, but also an appreciation for poetry’s capacity to “keep surprise alive”—rejuvenating, challenging, and ultimately connecting us in the adventure of curiosity.