How to Talk About the Hard Stuff With a Friend

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary: "How to Talk About the Hard Stuff With a Friend"

Host: Alison Stewart | Guest: Dr. Marissa Franco | Release Date: May 1, 2025

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Introduction and Context

In the May 1, 2025 episode of All Of It on WNYC, host Alison Stewart delves into the delicate art of navigating conflict within friendships. The episode, titled "How to Talk About the Hard Stuff With a Friend," features psychologist and friendship expert Dr. Marissa Franco. Dr. Franco, a professor with a PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Maryland, previously appeared on the show to discuss her book on attachment science and its impact on friendships.

The Importance of Navigating Conflict in Friendships

Alison Stewart opens the conversation by highlighting a common dilemma: while thriving close relationships are pivotal to happiness (“Research does indeed show that one of the greatest contributors to a happy life are thriving close relationships” [00:28]), the pursuit of pain-free relationships may inherently conflict with maintaining these bonds. This sets the stage for exploring how honest conversations are essential for preserving friendships.

Attachment Styles and Conflict Resolution

Dr. Franco introduces the concept of attachment styles and their influence on how individuals handle conflict:

• Anxious Attachment: Individuals fear abandonment and may avoid conflict to preserve the relationship. When conflict accumulates, they might react aggressively or withdraw completely ([05:17]).

  “People who are anxiously attached in conflict often don't bring things up because they're afraid the other person will abandon them.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [05:17]

• Avoidant Attachment: These individuals tend to be self-sufficient and may ghost or shut down during conflicts due to discomfort with emotions ([05:17]).

  “Avoidantly attached people often stonewall and shut down during conflict because they are uncomfortable with emotions.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [05:17]

• Secure Attachment: People with this style handle conflicts calmly and constructively, believing in the relationship's strength to withstand issues ([05:17]).

  “Securely attached individuals trust that bringing up problems will lead to resolution rather than abandonment.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [05:17]

Handling Specific Friendship Issues

Managing 'Frenemies'

When addressing friendships that border on rivalry, Dr. Franco refers to them as ambivalent friendships—relationships where individuals simultaneously like and dislike each other. These relationships can elevate stress levels due to their unpredictability ([08:43]).

“Ambivalent friends actually raise our blood pressure even more than enemies because it's unpredictable.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [08:43]

She advises evaluating what one desires from the friendship and addressing the competitive tension directly if preservation is the goal.

Dealing with Hurtful Conversations

Caller Louis shares his experience with a friend who hurt him during a relapse. Dr. Franco emphasizes the importance of expressing feelings without blame:

“Share your internal world without blaming or attacking the other person. I felt hurt when you said this, but I also understand you were coming from a place of love.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [12:07]

She highlights the effectiveness of acknowledgment and perspective-taking in healing the friendship.

Addressing Negative Talk About Others

Kathy, another caller, expresses discomfort with a friend who speaks negatively about others. Dr. Franco suggests approaching the conversation with reassurance:

“Reassure your friend that the conversation stems from your investment in the friendship and your desire for long-term comfort and authenticity.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [18:30]

She advises framing the discussion around mutual understanding and focusing on personal feelings rather than accusations.

Effective Communication Strategies

Timing Conversations

Choosing the right moment is crucial. Dr. Franco recommends initiating difficult conversations when both parties are calm and centered, ideally by setting the stage through a preliminary text message.

“Have the conversation at a time when both of you are in a centered place and not particularly activated.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [13:51]

Setting the Tone

Framing the conversation positively ensures that it begins on a constructive note. Dr. Franco advises using language that emphasizes the value of the friendship and the intention to strengthen it.

“Use framing to reaffirm that you’re bringing up the conversation because you want to be close to the person.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [14:36]

Framing Discussions

Dr. Franco introduces the concept of framing, where the conversation is positioned as a means to enhance the relationship rather than as an attack.

“I want to talk through this because our friendship is really important to me and I don’t want anything unsaid to get between us.” – Suggested by Dr. Marissa Franco [14:36]

Moving Through Awkwardness After Hard Conversations

After initiating a difficult conversation, discomfort may arise. Dr. Franco advises confronting the uncomfortable feelings rather than avoiding them:

“Recognize assumptions and offer yourself reassurance and support that you did the right thing.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [20:02]

She emphasizes grounding oneself emotionally and maintaining a positive outlook on the potential outcomes of the conversation.

Final Takeaways

Dr. Franco wraps up the discussion by reiterating that conflict is an integral part of intimacy:

“Conflict can be an act of love and reconciliation. It doesn’t have to involve blaming or yelling.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [22:22]

She introduces the idea of dynamic safety in friendships, where relationships are resilient because they have successfully navigated and repaired past conflicts.

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Key Quotes:

• “People who are anxiously attached in conflict often don't bring things up because they're afraid the other person will abandon them.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [05:17]

• “Ambivalent friends actually raise our blood pressure even more than enemies because it's unpredictable.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [08:43]

• “Share your internal world without blaming or attacking the other person.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [12:07]

• “Have the conversation at a time when both of you are in a centered place and not particularly activated.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [13:51]

• “Conflict can be an act of love and reconciliation. It doesn’t have to involve blaming or yelling.” – Dr. Marissa Franco [22:22]

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This episode of All Of It provides valuable insights into maintaining healthy friendships by addressing conflicts thoughtfully and authentically. Dr. Marissa Franco offers practical advice grounded in psychological research, empowering listeners to foster deeper and more resilient relationships.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In recent years, more people have opted to protect their peace when it comes to navigating conflict in their relationship with others. But what happens when you've overcorrected? A Vox article said, quote, research does indeed show that one of the greatest contributors to a happy life are thriving close relationships. But it also says the pursuit of a pain free relationship might be inherently at odds with with these goals. So what do you do if you'd like to keep someone in your life? How do you have an honest conversation with a friend? Our next guest is an expert and here to help us answer these questions. Dr. Marissa Franco holds a PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Maryland where she's a professor. The last time she joined us on the show was to talk about her book, how the Science of Attachment can help you make and keep Friends. Marissa, welcome to ALL OF it.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

Listeners, have you had to have a hard conversation with a friend? Maybe it was to set a boundary or to express hurt or just to work through a conflict. How did it go? Or are you putting off a conversation like that? Give us a call or text to us. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. Marissa, you've studied friendship for a while and at some point you start asking other people what they did when they're upset with a friend. And you said, quote, most people have said that they suck it up in order to preserve the friendship. Why do individuals feel like letting their friend know they're hurt or maybe even let down that that will put an end to the friendship?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I think it's partially the narrative that we have about friendship, which is very different than the narrative we have about romance. Romance, there's going to be hard years of your marriage where you're going to have to work through difficult things. Friendship being light and airy and easy. When I feel like intimacy is intimacy and we don't compartmentalize what it takes to be successful in a relationship based off of what is platonic and what is romantic. And so because of that narrative, when something goes wrong with a friendship, it's sort of like this shouldn't be happening. Maybe this is a sign that we're not compatible rather than this is just a part of what it means to connect to another human being. And within any intimate relationship, I will have to work through issues with that person.

[Alison Stewart]

When you think about the actual harm that's done in ignoring conflict in your relationship, what is it? What's the true harm that's done?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Well, I think when we don't make the unsaid said, we end up withdrawing instead. That begins to accumulate. We're no longer as present and authentic in our friendships because we're holding onto this thing that that person says. And we often begin to withdraw in the friendship instead of addressing it. And that can be really harmful behavior to be on the other end of where your friend is suddenly pulling away from you and you don't understand why. And in fact, conflict is bringing up the issue. It's a lot more kind because sometimes, you know, even in my own life, when you don't bring it up, it's like you're holding someone guilty without giving them a chance to defend themselves. And maybe there was some, you know, situation or circumstance or, you know, extenuating thing that could have impacted. Impacted how you perceive the problem, but you didn't get even give that other person a chance by pulling away.

[Caller]

Instead, could you give us some clear signs that a friendship or a conflict in a friendship needs to be addressed rather than ignored?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great question, because I don't think we need to address everything. Right. There are some passing issues that come up in a friendship where we don't bring it up, but we kind of end up getting over it. But when we don't get over it, when we find ourselves feeling less safe, feeling less authentic, when we don't want to reach out as much, when we kind of desire to pull away, these are all signs that we need to start bringing something up.

[Caller]

Listeners we're talking to Marissa Franco. We're discussing how to have an honest conversation with friends. Whether it's setting boundaries or expressing hurt, we want to hear from you. Have you had a hard conversation with a friend? Maybe you set a boundary. You expressed hurt, you worked through a conflict. How did it go? Or maybe you're putting off a conversation like that now and you want to talk to us about it. Our number is 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Marissa, a lot of the research you did for your last book revolved around attachment Styles and how understanding your attachment style helps you make new friends and maintain the relationships that you already have. Where do attachment styles come into play when dealing with conflict?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, so our attachment styles are basically, it's a sort of accumulation of past experiences that we've had related to connection that we then impose onto future experiences. And so if you're anxiously attached, you've often felt like you've had to earn love, the love was inconsistent. People will abandon you if you're not perfect. And so people who are anxiously attached in conflict, they often don't bring things up because they're afraid the other person will abandon them. But then when things get, you know, when they've accumulated so much pain, they end up either freaking out and getting a little bit aggressive or pulling away entirely. And so that pain they're trying to suppress doesn't go away. And then you have avoidantly attached people who have sort of like experienced emotional neglect. They maybe had shelter, food, but nobody wanted to hear how they felt in their sense of reality. And so they've learned to be very self sufficient and not be vulnerable with anyone. And so when it comes to conflict, they're kind of ghosting because they think you should be able to take care of it on your own. If you have feelings about it, it's your fault. They also experience a lot of shame, deep down, avoidantly attached people. So they'll tend to get defensive. And because they are so uncomfortable with emotions, because they've been shamed for their emotions so much, they'll often stonewall and shut down during conflict. Then you have people that are securely attached who have experienced safe relationships, good enough parenting, trusting relationships. And they trust that if I bring up a problem, the other person cares about me and will want to work to address it. And so they're able to bring up problems level headedly without attacking, blaming or withdrawing like the folks with the other attachment styles.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, a lot of people wait until tensions rise and then they blow up.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

How might this affect the other person's response to perhaps a legitimate grievance?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, so I used to be more anxiously attached and I was so afraid of bringing things up and because I didn't want anyone to abandon me. And then I, when I brought things up, it would be full of energy, full of power, kind of more aggressive and it would confirm my fear that people will abandon you if you bring things up. But I didn't realize it wasn't that I brought things up that made someone abandon me, it was how I brought it up. Because if you're unkind to someone at any point in a relationship, then they're not going to be as comfortable and satisfied in the relationship with you. And so I realize now that there's a way to bring up issues really kindly and level headedly and straightforwardly. Kind of more like a reconciliation than a conflict. And you know, generally conflict is a time when our emotions are really charged and we tend to remember things better when we're in moments of high emotion, whether, you know, things are really good or things are really bad. Which means how things, how conflict goes, often disproportionately impacts how we view the friendship overall. So that moment, how did we work through this issue together? It can really sink in and shape our perception of the friendship. So it's a critical moment for us to not only bring up the problem, but be able to bring it up in a kind of loving way where we have empathy for both ourselves and the other person.

[Alison Stewart]

I've got a question here from you via text. It says, can you talk about the dynamic of frenemies, I. E. People who stay friends to keep tabs on someone that they're somehow competing with. Should you ever address this? This is from Will and Harlem.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, Frenemies sort of make me think about this concept called ambivalent friendships, which is friends that you like kind of like and don't like at the same time. Like, you have a lot of. May have a lot of hesitations or reluctance around them, but you also like. And the research on ambivalent friends shows that they actually raise our blood pressure even more than enemies because it's unpredictable. It's like, which part of you will I get at a given time? The part of you that like, likes me or wants the best for me or the part of this sort of like unsaid, maybe conflict or tension that we have? And I would say, you know, if this is, it depends. I would say first take a step back and ask yourself what you want out of the friendship. Because if there's a friendship that you're like, this isn't, you know, this person doesn't want the best for me, then you might decide something different versus if you're like, I do want this friendship, I think that we could work on this and come back together and there's good things here, then that might be a friendship worth salvaging. And if you want to salvage it, the friendship is likely to stay the same unless you actually bring up the issue. And so being able to say, like, hey, you know, I want us to want the best for each other, but sometimes it feels like we're in a little bit of a competition with each other. I just kind of wanted to get your input, like, how can we work on that? To keep being able to address the problem is really the only way that it's going to change over time.

[Caller]

Let's take a call. This is Lewis, who is calling in from Great Neck. Louis, thanks for making the time to call. All of it. You're on the air.

[Louis]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much. I'm really enjoying the topic. I think it's really important. I'm actually visiting from Austin, Texas, but I am a New Yorker originally. What I have to say about it is I had a situation where someone, a good friend of mine had some really harsh, harsh words for me. I was in recall. I was. I had relapsed. I. And he basically really had said some hurtful things to me. I didn't get into an argument with him, but I let it sit. You know, it hung up. I was polite. And then I kind of just let it sit for. For a few weeks. And I kind of went back and forth about, you know, I tried to see from his point of view and then what I realized he really was coming from a place of love and that he cared about me. So I eventually had that hard conversation where I called him up and. And said to him, you know, I wanted to speak to you about something. And I told him that, you know, what he had said was hurtful, that I was hurt by it, but I realized it was coming from a place of love. And, yeah, it was great. I think in. In, you know, in a lot of our cases, we, you know, we. We played over in our heads and we think worst case scenarios or, you know, we don't want to continue to get hurt. And I just was. I came. I tried to just be honest about how I felt. I didn't put it on him to say, you, like, you made me feel this way, so. But I really do love the topic. I think a lot of us have a really hard time, especially with friends and family and then politics. Oh, my God.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, that's another part of the conversation. Louis, thank you so much for calling in. I wanted to hone in on something he said, the way he described it, Marissa, that he didn't say, you let me down. He said, I feel let down. I thought that was really interesting.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, absolutely. That. That is a great tip for having conflict successfully, which is you share your internal world without blaming or attacking the other person. I felt hurt when you said this. And I also hear in that answer a lot of perspective taking, too, which is another thing that makes for successful conflict. That's being able to say what was this person's reality and their intentions, what was mine, and not let one eclipse the other. Right. He didn't say, I'm not hurt anymore because you meant the best for me. He said, I'm hurt and you wanted the best for me. And both of those things can exist at the same time. And that is fundamentally what makes good conflict, is this concept of mutuality, which is like if our realities are equally important, then where do we go from there?

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about how to have an honest conversation with friends, with psychologists, with a psychologist who works on healthy relationships. Dr. Marissa Franco joins us to share advice on handling conflict with care and taking your stories and your questions. Listeners, have you ever had a hard conversation with a friend? Maybe you had to set a boundary or express hurt or work through a conflict? Tell us how it went. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We'll have more after a break. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Marissa Franco. She's a psychologist who works on focusing on healthy relationships. Our conversation today is how to have an honest conversation with a friend. Let's talk about timing. How do you make sure the timing is right for this conversation?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. So you wanna have this conversation at a time when both of you are in a centered place and no one's particularly activated. I mean, there's this concept called window of tolerance. And so you want to be in your window of calm and not shut down or hyperarouse, like about to attack. I think sometimes it can be a good idea to text a friend before you have this conversation so they can get in that window of tolerance and feel prepared. And so you can just say like, hey, there's something on my mind in our friendship. And I think talking about it can really help bring us closer. So would you mind if we talk about it next time? Or plenty of time to be able to talk through it together.

[Alison Stewart]

And following up on that, we have a text that says, what suggestions do you have for setting the tone of the conversation?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, that's a great question. There's this concept called framing, which means the line that you use to introduce the conversation is one that reaffirms that you're having this conversation because you want to be close to the person. And so that can Say something like, hey, I want to talk through this because our friendship is really important to me and I don't want anything unsaid to get between us. And so I want it to bring this up and be able to clear the air.

[Caller]

Let's talk to Janelle, who's calling in from Brooklyn. Hey, Janelle, thank you so much for calling wnyc. You're on the air.

[Janelle]

Hi. I have kind of like an adjacent thing I've been going through where about a year ago, who I thought was a really close friend had some kind of inflammatory, disrespectful things to me. And if it was just me and him, I would have ended the relationship. But, you know, it's like a 20 year friend group that's pretty enmeshed. And I've realized that me not bearing the hatchet with him is affecting a lot of my other community. And I'm starting to feel really, like, left out and isolated. And I don't think I have anything to apologize for. So how should I bring up trying to just get to a place where this isn't destroying me anymore? Because this person has not. He's only reached out to me to apologize at like 2am after a wedding. So, like, I don't think he's entering in a conversation with like, good faith that he wants to actually have the conversation or be accountable. But it's killing me and I don't want to start the conversation where I end up apologizing for being disrespected.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Caller]

What do you think?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I, you know, I hear you. I think it's a good point that our issues with our friendships can affect people way beyond just the two of us. I hear in this person's answer that they almost don't want to bring up the conversation because they don't want to be the one to apologize. But you don't have to apologize because you're bringing up the conversation. You can bring up the conversation to enter into a place of mutual understanding. And so bringing up the conversation can say, like, hey, I realized that this issue that we had a while ago is still affecting the dynamics in our friendship group. I wonder that if we can talk through it and maybe share what was going on for each of us so that we can move forward and create a better dynamic for all of us within the context of this group.

[Caller]

Can I ask you a question? What does a real heartfelt apology sound like?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

It doesn't just sound like something. It feels like something. It feels like someone who has authentically taken in the feedback received it reflected on it, acknowledged the places that they fall short, truly empathizes with you and understands your sense of reality here. And so there's a feeling of resonance, emotional resonance and genuineness. And it can sound something like, you know, I'm really sorry. I understand your perspective here. Here's the impact on you. And I am understanding and restating that. Next time I hope that I can do a lot better. And this is what that's going to look like for me.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Kathy, who's calling from home, Dell, New Jersey. Hi, Kathy. Thank you so much for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

[Kathy]

Hi. Thank you. I have a question. I have a very dear friend who is kind and wonderful and we've been friends for many years, and I love her dearly, but she has a habit of speaking of other people about other people when we're together in a negative light. And I don't know how to approach the subject with her. It makes me feel uncomfortable. And of course, it makes me wonder if she may be saying things about me when I'm not in the room. So I want to approach the subject with her, but I don't want her to take offense to it because I really don't want to give up the friendship.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing. I hear in your answer a few things. One is that you want her to not take offense, which I want to acknowledge is something that you can influence but not control. Everyone has their triggers or their reactions, and we can try our best, but we're not necessarily in control. The second is this assumption that bringing things up might harm the friendship, but it sounds like the friendship is already being harmed. You're calling in to a radio show because you have this issue in your friendship, acknowledging that bringing up conflict, we're often afraid of it harming the friendship. But if we want to bring up conflict, that's a sign that the harm's already there rather than you creating it. Some tips for bringing it up? I would start with a lot of reassurance that, hey, friend, like, I want to bring this up because I'm really invested in you and I have a great time with you and I love you as a friend. And I want to make sure we're friends long term. And I know that part of that is making sure we're both comfortable here. And sometimes I struggle when you bring up, when you say this, these things about some of our other friends. It makes me kind of uncomfortable. And I'm wondering if maybe we can stay talking about whatever it is you often movies, media, you know, our own feelings, our own experiences. What would that be like for you.

[Caller]

After having a conversation like that?

[Alison Stewart]

It could get kind of awkward. There's kind of an awkward period afterward. How do you sit in the discomfort.

[Caller]

Of having told someone that you're upset with them or they've hurt your feelings.

[Alison Stewart]

And you have to wait?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you do?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I think often within that silence and that discomfort is a bunch of assumptions. That person thinks I'm bad or I'm wrong or might always see me this way. If you're on the receiving end or if you told the other person, oh, they're going to think I'm too much, they're going to run away, they're going to abandon me. And so it's really important to recognize that those are all assumptions and you don't necessarily know because the moment is still unfolding before you. And so being able to kind of turn towards those feelings, acknowledge them, offering yourself reassurance and support that I did the right thing, that was important for me and I did my best in this conversation and I'm here with myself through this difficult period. Offering yourself that grounding, telling yourself the reassurance that you feel like you need from the friend in this moment that might be fueling that discomfort. Those are all good ways to ground yourself as you transition out of this state of conflict. Because fundamentally, one thing I talk about in platonic and when I speak on friendship is that the more that we assume that we're rejected, the more it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Right. If I think hates me now because I brought up this problem, I'm going to withdraw and kind of fan the flames versus getting to a place where I can at least assume maybe this is, maybe this will bring us closer. Maybe my friend really appreciates my honesty. Maybe this will open up a level of depth in the friendship, then that's going to allow you to get over that awkwardness hump and return to maybe even a better baseline now that you are able to be more authentic in the friendship.

[Caller]

Talk to Marilyn and Chelsea. Hi Marilyn, thanks for calling all of it.

[Kathy]

Thank you, Allison. What I wanted to contribute to the conversation is as a habit I've created before, I have difficult conversations thinking of three ideas around which I would love the conversation to revolve. So for instance, clarity, understanding, love, possibility. And then also envision how I would love to feel at the end of the conversation. You know, relieved, more understanding. And I feel it works wonders every time.

[Caller]

Thank you so much for calling. Marilyn, we have about a minute left. Marissa, is there anything I haven't covered which you think is important for people to take away from this conversation?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I think we did a really good job covering things. I mean, I think I just want people to take away that conflict is a part of intimacy. Defang it, normalize it. It can be an act of love and reconciliation. It doesn't have to be us toppling over tables and yelling at and blaming each other. There's a psychoanalyst, Virginia Goldner, and she says when you, you can have safety in a friendship that's based off of you never bringing up problems, and that's a flaccid safety. Or you could have dynamic safety, which is we rupture and we repair. We rupture and we repair. And we know that whatever ruptures we face in the future, we can and will repair because we already have before.

[Alison Stewart]

I've been speaking with psychologist and friendship expert Dr. Marissa Franco about navigating conflict with friends. Thanks to listeners who called and thanks to you, Marissa.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

My pleasure. Good luck, everyone.

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