If There Was a Vogue Magazine For Pigeons, It Would Be This Book

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Podcast: All Of It
Episode: If There Was a Vogue Magazine For Pigeons, It Would Be This Book
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Andrew Garn (photographer, author of “The New York Behind the Feathers”)
Air Date: August 22, 2024

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Overview

This episode of “All Of It” celebrates New York City’s oft-maligned but ever-present unofficial bird: the pigeon. Host Kusha Navadar speaks with photographer and writer Andrew Garn, who has documented the secret beauty and surprising charisma of city pigeons in his new book, “The New York Behind the Feathers”—described as “Vogue magazine for pigeons.” The conversation dives into the world of these urban birds through lush photography, fascinating anatomy, their complex relationship with New Yorkers, and the passionate subcultures that revere them.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Falling in Love With Pigeons & Photography

• Origins of Garn’s Craft:
  • Garn shares a childhood memory of being called “the Richard Avedon of ..." by his mother and his introduction to photography through an after-school program in the ‘70s (01:24–02:13).
  • Quote: "He taught us photography. He also taught us filmmaking and camping, all sorts of things. But photography really caught my attention... it was like magic. I was like 13 or something." — Andrew Garn (01:53)
• From Birdwatching to Pigeon Portraiture:
  • Recounts first photographing pigeons as a teenager and later recognizing “elitism” in birdwatching circles, which often ignore pigeons (02:15–02:51).
  • Describes the revelation of photographing pigeons in studio lighting, which unlocks their coloration and diversity: "When you put them against a backdrop, they are totally different birds. And they are so diverse in their coloration... there's nothing like it, really." — Andrew Garn (02:53)

2. Inside the Book: Structure and Sections

• Book Organization:
  • Sections include studio portraits, baby pigeons, people with pigeons, pigeons bathing, and pigeons as lovers (03:19–06:02).
  • Garn explains, "Pigeons have so much personality... they are about as smart as dogs, and they're similar in that man has tweaked them by breeding different breeds to their fancy." (03:50)
• Pigeon Genetics & Diversity:
  • Points out the immense variety in colors and forms of NYC’s pigeons due to centuries of hybridization and escapees from domestic breeds (04:00).
• Pigeon People:
  • Features NYC’s diverse group of pigeon enthusiasts, including prominent figures like Union Square’s “Mother Pigeon” (05:18–05:23).

3. Listener Engagement: Pigeon Tales & Misconceptions

• Good Luck & Street Encounters:
  • A caller, Jane, tells a classic NYC story about being pooped on by a pigeon after an important business meeting and first date, taking it as a sign of good luck (06:10–06:54).
  • Garn affirms the superstition: "Very lucky... I'm sure if a pigeon interceded on your behalf, you got the job."
• Feeding Pigeons—Do’s and Don’ts:
  • Garn responds to a text equating pigeons to “flying rats,” urging listeners to feed pigeons only seeds, not bread or processed food: "If people were more knowledgeable about what to feed pigeons, I think there would be less of them... and there would be healthier pigeons as well." (07:22–08:11)

4. Art, Technique, and Transforming Perception

• Photographing Pigeons:
  • Garn describes setting up mobile studios to photograph pigeons where they are—at coops and rescue centers, primarily the Wild Bird Fund. Portraits are named after rescuers (08:27–09:09).
• Pigeon Details & Iridescence:
  • Highlights extraordinary eye and feather diversity: "This is about... 88 different eyes of pigeons, and you can see the variation. Even human eyes don't have this kind of variation. You have lavender eyes and yellow eyes and white eyes, black eyes..." (09:21)
  • Addresses the old question, “Where are the baby pigeons?” by sharing he’s raised and photographed them at all stages (09:55).

5. Caller Memories & Pigeon Fancier Culture

• Childhood Memories:
  • Listener Paul remembers rooftop pigeon coops and training birds to come on signal (10:34–11:33).
  • Garn explains pigeons’ adaptability and the debate over keeping them caged vs. flying (11:33).
• Pigeon Fanciers and Breeds:
  • Sandra recalls her father’s flock and the world of competitive pigeon fancying (12:14–13:30).
  • She mentions specialty breeds like fantails and Birmingham Rollers; Garn affirms the diverse roles of pigeons.

6. Pigeon Anatomy & Evolution

• Facts and Figures:
  • Garn drops quick facts: Pigeons weigh about 13 ounces, have 1,500 feathers, can fly up to 500 miles at 50 mph, and possess huge breast muscles for powered flight (13:31–13:59).
  • Unique features: crop milk production from both sexes, communal parenting, hollow bones, nine air sacs for efficient respiration, and gizzards with pebbles for grinding food (13:59–15:38).
  • Quote: "Their bones are hollow, very strong, very sturdy... Also, birds, as pigeons have nine air sacs in addition to their lungs to help them with breathing... They are just so efficient that way." — Andrew Garn (15:07)

7. A Pigeon in Studio: Meet Kahlua

• Live Guest Star!
  • Garn introduces Kahlua, a rehabbed pigeon from the Wild Bird Fund—calm, speckled, marble-colored, and awaiting release (16:04–16:53).
  • Kusha notes this is not Garn’s first time bringing a pigeon to WNYC studios (16:53).
• Hands-on Natural History:
  • Garn describes the physical features—keel bone, breast muscle, hollow bones, visual processing, and rapid, weight-saving mating process (17:14–19:38).
  • Demonstrates pigeons’ calm demeanor and responsive nature in studio.

8. Urban Hazards & Rescue

• Urban Pigeon Lifespans:
  • Pet pigeons can live up to 20–30 years; city pigeons survive just 1–3 years (19:56).
  • Hazards include traffic, poor diet, and human interference.
  • Garn notes pandemic changes: flocks increased as people sought nature in local parks (19:56–20:59).

9. Doves, Pigeon Shoots, and Rescue Work

• Clarifications:
  • Garn explains that pigeons and doves are essentially the same species. All-white pigeons are often confused with doves (21:13–21:17).
• Animal Rights:
  • Criticizes Pennsylvania’s live pigeon shoots and details pigeons stolen from NYC for use in these events (21:18–22:17).
  • Quote: "I've caught them red handed... They get a dollar or two per pigeon and they drive them to Pennsylvania... it's very sad." — Andrew Garn (21:25)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Changing Minds:
  • "Sometimes total strangers, they say, you know, I kind of hated pigeons before, but then I saw your book, and it totally turned me around. That was my goal from the beginning." — Andrew Garn (22:23)
• On Human-Pigeon Connection:
  • "It's not about me. It's for... about pigeons. Look at how innocent and beautiful. They're so connected to humans. Like, he's looking at me, this little pigeon." — Andrew Garn (22:53)
• Kahlua the Studio Pigeon:
  • "This is Kahlua. And I just wanted to say Kahlua's pronouns are he, him, it, they, she, and hers... Because we don't know." — Andrew Garn (16:04)

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• 00:23: Host sets up the NYC context and introduces Andrew Garn
• 01:36: Garn recounts his entry into photography
• 02:15: Origins of his pigeon interest and first attempts at pigeon photography
• 03:19: Book’s structure and Garn’s artistic approach
• 06:10: Jane’s call about luck and pigeon poop
• 07:22: Text about “flying rats” and Garn’s feeding advice
• 08:27: Studio portrait technique explained
• 09:21: Discussion about pigeon eye/feather diversity
• 10:34: Paul’s call on old and new rooftop pigeon coops
• 13:31: Pigeon anatomy rundown
• 16:04: Introduction of Kahlua, the in-studio pigeon guest
• 19:56: Discussion of urban and pet pigeon lifespans
• 21:17: Garn details pigeon theft for Pennsylvania shoots
• 22:23: Garn on the joy of changing people’s minds about pigeons

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is warm, enthusiastic, and affectionate toward pigeons, full of personal anecdote, scientific curiosity, and unexpected urban drama. Garn comes across as both advocate and artist, eager to dispel myths and inspire guests to appreciate the often-overlooked beauty and complexity of city pigeons.

Whether it’s through personal stories, natural history, or stunning visuals, “If There Was a Vogue Magazine For Pigeons, It Would Be This Book” invites listeners to see pigeons—and perhaps city wildlife in general—in a new, kinder light.

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Transcript

[McDonald's Customer]

I' ma put you on, nephew.

[Andrew Garn]

All right, unk. Welcome to McDonald's.

[McDonald's Employee]

Can I take your order, miss?

[McDonald's Customer]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Kusha Navadar]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar. I'm in for Alison Stewart. Today, the official New York state bird is the eastern bluebird. But city dwellers know that our unofficial bird is the pigeon. Ubiquitous, hardy, omnivorous, they are as New York as the subway and often reviled as much as the mta. But photographer Andrew Garn sees the beauty in these birds. Their iridescent feathers, their fan like sweep of their wings, their luminous eyes. And now some of his lush portraits of them are collected in a book, Think Vogue magazine. But for birds, it's called the New York behind the Feathers. And he joins us now to discuss. Andrew, welcome back to wnyc.

[Andrew Garn]

Hi. Thank you, Kusha. Thank you for having me. That's a great intro. And thank you for helping me spread the gospel of the pigeon.

[Kusha Navadar]

I have loved seeing pigeons in a new way. You can consider me a convert from not liking them to liking them. The book is really beautiful.

[Andrew Garn]

Thank you.

[Kusha Navadar]

You know, you wrote in the introduction that when you were a boy, your mother told you that one day you would be, and I'm quoting here, the Richard Avedon of she was prescient. How did you get interested in pigeons and photography?

[Andrew Garn]

Well, I started photography through Mr. Greenhunt in Junior high school who had an after school program. And remember, this is New York in the 70s. And it was very bad, you know, just 50 kids in a classroom. But somehow he managed to put aside a storeroom in the basement of my Junior High on 76th Street. Wagner Jr. High. Shout out. And he taught us photography. He also taught us filmmaking and camping, all sorts of things. But photography really caught my attention because one day we photographed each other with his old Raleigh camera with one little light and we went into the darkroom, developed the film and that was it. It was like magic. I was like 13 or something.

[Kusha Navadar]

And then when did the pigeon love come from?

[Andrew Garn]

You know, I was going through some stuff recently, some old photographs that my mother had. I had photographed pigeons in Carlshire's park when I was about 14 or something. It wasn't a very good photo, but, you know, I tried, you know, but. And then, you know, I've been bird watching in my adult life and I noticed there's sort of a elitism know about warblers. And I love warblers. I love birds in general. But people sort of poo pooed pigeons. They wouldn't even look at them. And I thought, well, what if I really looked at them? You know, let me see them up close. So I knew somebody who had a coop in Brooklyn. I went there with some lights, sort of set up a studio, and I was astounded with what I saw, better than what I could have imagined. Because when you put the lights on them, you don't see them on the street. You know, they're kind of gray. They sort of are camouflaged when they're on the street. But when you put them against a backdrop, they are totally different birds. And they are so diverse in their coloration and their feathers, their eye color. I mean, there's nothing like it, really. Yeah.

[Kusha Navadar]

Listeners, do you have a pigeon story or a question for Andrew Garn? Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also text us at that number and describe the book to us. It's divided into sections. There are studio portraits, kind of what you were just describing. There are pictures of baby pigeons, photos of people with pigeons, pigeons in waters, pigeons who are, in your words, lovers. What did you want to capture with each section?

[Andrew Garn]

Well, I guess how much personality pigeons have. Unlike birds have personalities, of course, but pigeons are sort of part human. I guess they're sort of like dogs. I would say they're about as smart as dogs and they're similar to dogs in that man has tweaked them by breeding different breeds to their fancy, basically. So you have a thousand breeds of fancy pigeons and that's why you get these strange colorations, because some of them escape and they intermingle with the feral pigeons we see on the street. And I've been fortunate to go to Egypt and India to see where pigeons come from. And you see they're all very much homogenous. They are all blue bars, basically. So when you come back to New York, you're like, wow. And it's because they have all these genetics of these fancy breeds. So the book is divided into different chapters. One is the portraits of pigeons, which are the very sort of very formal portraits against a black backdrop, very elegantly lit, because I wanted to take them off the streets, like I said, and just make them look as regal as possible. And then, of course, I wanted to show the people that love pigeons because it really is like a cross section of humanity. You know, you think of, oh, there's the ocean lady with a shopping cart who throws the seeds. But it's not. It's. You know, I go throughout the city. I see kids feeding pigeons. I see everybody sharing their lunch. Pigeons know how to work, Work people.

[Kusha Navadar]

We have a text right here that says, hopefully the conversation will mention Union Square's own mother pigeon.

[Andrew Garn]

She's in the book. That's right. She's definitely in the book. And she's a real pigeon lover. And I love it when she sets up her stuffed pigeons and they mingle with real pigeons. That's kind of funny because she lays down seeds with them. So she. Yeah, she's in the pigeon people chapter. And. And we have a whole chapter which is expanded. This is a new edition of the book about pigeons in the city because I wanted to show them in New York City and how they sort of are part of the architecture. And then there's a whole chapter just on bathing beauties because pigeons love to bathe, and they're quite beautiful when they do that. And then there's another chapter on pigeons are lovers because they sure like to make love.

[Kusha Navadar]

In fact, we have a caller that I think might have some comments on that. Jane in Chelsea. Hey, Jane. Welcome to the show.

[Andrew Garn]

Hey.

[McDonald's Employee]

Unfortunately, I don't have a story about pigeons in love, but I just. Just last week I was. I had like an important coffee meeting with my boss with a prospective client. We were really, you know, kind of nervous. We really wanted to win the business. And right after that meeting, I had a first date and the meeting went well. It was nice. My boss and I left the coffee shop and about one and a half blocks later, I just got a pigeon just pooped on me. A really testy, weighty poop.

[Andrew Garn]

Very lucky.

[McDonald's Employee]

Looks like a very well fed pigeon. Yeah. Immediately we were both like, this is growth, but it's good luck. So maybe we'll win the client and maybe I'll have a boyfriend. Who's to say?

[Andrew Garn]

So what happened?

[McDonald's Employee]

Well, the date went really well, if that's what you mean.

[Andrew Garn]

Okay. And did you get the client?

[McDonald's Employee]

I'm very optimistic. Working on a proposal right now.

[Andrew Garn]

I'm sure if a pigeon interceded on your behalf, you got the job.

[Kusha Navadar]

Pigeon helped out with love in a certain sense. For you. Jane, thanks so much for that call. There's a text here that I'd love you to respond to, Andrew. It says, regarding New York City pigeons, I consider pigeons flying rats. Please don't encourage people to feed them. What do you think?

[Andrew Garn]

Well, that's an interesting point, because pigeons, a lot of people don't feed pigeons the right food. And it's important to only feed them seed. And you can. But of course, people think that they're starving because pigeons know how to work humans. They'll go up to somebody who's eating a sandwich, you know, bread and those kind of things. They're not good for pigeons. And that's what makes them poop, runny poop. If they only. I know people that have many, many pigeons as pets. They feed them seeds, and their poop is just perfect little pea sized things. So if people were more knowledgeable about what to feed pigeons, I think there would be less of them, for one thing, and there would be healthier pigeons as well. So, please, if you do feed pigeons, feed them seed.

[Kusha Navadar]

A lot of your technique in the book brings out that idea that you were discussing about what's special about pigeons that might otherwise be camouflaged. If you just see them on the street in the portrait section of the book, the pigeons pop out from a black background. Are you in a studio? How did you get those photos?

[Andrew Garn]

Yeah, I usually travel to where the pigeons are, so I figured that's the best way to approach this rather than bring pigeons into my studio. So I just take a pretty simple studio with two to three lights, strobes, of course, and backdrop, and I set up wherever the pigeons are, whether it's the coop or the wild bird fund. Many of these photographs are taken at the wild bird fund. So these are rehabbing pigeons, Pigeons that have been rescued. And the names of the pigeons in the portrait section are of the people that rescued them. So there's a tie in to that. So they're not just arbitrarily named. And some of the pigeons in the book actually are pigeons that I rescued. I named them after my dogs.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, wow. Of the details in those photos that you really want folks to notice, I'm thinking of the iridescence. I'm thinking of the not feathers, but the ways in which their plumage looks.

[Andrew Garn]

Well, this is one of my favorite pictures. This is about. I think it's 88 different eyes of pigeons, and you can see the variation. I don't think there's any. Even human eyes don't have this kind of variation. You have lavender eyes and yellow eyes and white eyes, black eyes. This is one of my favorite. And then there's another similar page that shows the different plumages. But I also, like, there's a baby section as well. Because, you know, everybody says, well, we'd never seen baby pigeons and I was lucky to raise some pigeons. So I got.

[Kusha Navadar]

We actually just got a text that said, so he seen baby pigeons, huh?

[Andrew Garn]

Really? Oh, yeah. You gotta get the book. Cause it has everything from pigeon embryos to our old pigeon twins huddling in a nest together. And then it has this sort of awkward teenage stage of pigeons that they really look like dinosaurs. It's kind of amazing when they have their downy feather and their real feathers are just piercing their skin. As you can see, they're a little awkward looking.

[Kusha Navadar]

But you know, one thing that I get when you're leafing through the book right now is the variety and the vibrancy of these different elements of a pigeon which we might think of with other birds. Let's go to Paul in Brooklyn. Hey, Paul, welcome to the show.

[Andrew Garn]

Hi, Paul.

[Paul from Brooklyn]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

[Kusha Navadar]

Sure.

[Paul from Brooklyn]

I was just thinking, back when I was a child, a neighbor had a chicken coop, pigeon coop on his roof. And he would allow the pigeons out and they would circle around the house and when he wanted them to come in, he waved the red flag and the pigeons just came right back. I guess he had them conditioned to see the flag and know that it was feeding time. Fast forward to today. I have a next door neighbor who recently converted a shed into a pigeon coop. Only he doesn't allow the pigeons out at all. I can see them sort of sitting by the window, looking outside, yearning for the outdoors, but they never come out. Is that, is that okay?

[Andrew Garn]

Well, I mean, pigeons should. I think all birds should fly, obviously, but they can be captive birds. I mean, as I mentioned, I know people that have unreleasable pigeons and they have them in their homes and they can kind of fly around in the house, but they would not survive in the wild. So, you know, pigeons are extremely adaptable. So yeah, it would be. They can survive. And as long as he's feeding them and keeping them clean, it could be fine.

[Kusha Navadar]

Thanks so much for that call, Paul. Let's go to Sandra in Wayne, New Jersey. Hey, Sandra, welcome to the show.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Thank you. How are you?

[Kusha Navadar]

Good, thanks.

[Andrew Garn]

Hi.

[Kusha Navadar]

Sandra there.

[Andrew Garn]

Hello.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Hey, Sandra, I'm here.

[Kusha Navadar]

Hey Sandra, can you hear us?

[Sandra from Wayne]

Yeah, hi.

[Kusha Navadar]

Go ahead.

[Sandra from Wayne]

I can hear you.

[Andrew Garn]

You're on the air. Yeah.

[Sandra from Wayne]

I didn't know if you wanted to ask me a question or you just wanted me start babbling.

[Kusha Navadar]

Go for it, Sandra. We're here for you.

[Sandra from Wayne]

I just have also fond memories of as a child. My father was a Bird fancier. He was from Riga, Latvia, and he used to be truant from school and sit in the pigeon and chicken coop and just be with his pigeons. And then in America when he was immigrating, he started with a small flock, ended up with about six or seven hundred of them in a two story pigeon coop in Michigan. My mom wasn't a big fan, but he would go to shows in Des Moines, Iowa, Lexington, Kentucky, all over. They were called Pinch of fanciers. And he had fantails and Birmingham Rollers. Those are the ones that tumble. It's an inner ear deficit. And they would go in a kit, as your previous caller said. They would fly in circles on the thermals and they would do backflips if they were too inbred. They would flip all the way to the ground, sometimes crash, and he would breathe them. He'd put rings on their legs that indicated that he was the owner. And which series this was from for breathing. It was really, really intricate.

[Kusha Navadar]

Wow.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Really interesting.

[Kusha Navadar]

Sandra, thanks so much for sharing that. We really appreciate that little personal relationship you have there. I want to get Andrew into a little introduction into pigeon anatomy because that was something that I found quite interesting in the book as well. You write that pigeons weigh about 13 ounces. They have 1500 feathers. They have huge breast muscles for flying. Some can fly. I found this so fascinating. 500 miles at steady speeds of 50 miles an hour. Can you tell us some other pigeon facts about their anatomy?

[Andrew Garn]

Oh, sure, yes. So pigeons, like many other birds, some other birds, like hawks, they actually make crop milk. They have a separate gland to make a sort of viscous substance that looks like cream. And they regurgitate it to their baby birds. And both the males and the females do that. So pigeons are very socially progressive. Both the female and the male take care of the babies. So they'll sit on their eggs, but they'll also feed. They'll feed their own. But they'll also feed other pigeons babies too, if the other parents are away from the nest or whatever. So that's a kind of curious. And of course, you know, birds have evolved from dinosaurs. So how did they evolve? They lost as much weight as possible, so they lost dinosaur teeth. So how do you grind up your food? So they have a separate, another separate organ called the gizzard. And sometimes you'll see pigeons picking up little pebbles on the street and they actually digest them. They go into the gizzard and they help grind up their food because seeds are very hard to grind up and they don't have the teeth. So that's what the gizzard does.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, interesting.

[Andrew Garn]

So, you know, birds are fascinating in that way because they have evolved to be as lightweight as possible. Their bones are hollow, very strong, very sturdy. They have cross members to them, but they are mostly hollow. Also, birds, as pigeons have nine air sacs in addition to their lungs to help them with breathing. So the air sacs take oxygen and give it to the muscles directly so it doesn't have to go through the bloodstream. So they are just so efficient that way.

[Kusha Navadar]

And it allows them to maintain those steady speeds. Exactly right, listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Andrew Garn, the photographer and the writer. We're talking about his book, the New York behind the Feathers. So special surprise for listeners. Shall we meet the pigeon that you've brought in the studio, Andrew? So this whole conversation there has been a live pigeon sitting very quietly sitting there.

[Andrew Garn]

This is Kahlua. And I just wanted to say Kahlua's pronouns are he, him, it, they, she, and hers.

[Kusha Navadar]

Got it.

[Andrew Garn]

Because we don't know. And he's playing with me or she is playing. So this is Kahlua. He's a beauty or she's a beauty, as you can see, sort of colored like a Kahlua drink, sort of brown with white highlights, very, very orange eyes. And he's pretty calm. He's from the Wild Bird Fund, which is New York's only rescue organization on the Upper west side. And they take in like 12,000 birds a year. And about half of them are pigeons. So Kahlua is getting ready to be released. He has healed from his wounds and he is ready. So he's getting a lot of flight time right now. So he made the subway trip down here with me.

[Kusha Navadar]

Oh, wow. And I should let listeners know that this is not the first time that you, Andrew, have brought a pigeon into WNYC Studios. Nearly six years ago, when you were interviewed by our Late Morning Edition host Richard, you brought one with you. It wasn't the same pigeon then. Can you describe Kahlua a little bit more for us? What are some of the details that you.

[Andrew Garn]

He's a beauty. You know, I went to pick out a real unusual pigeon and he he's kind of speckled or marbled. I would almost say he really does look like veins and marble. I guess he has little brown feathers and black, slight like dark gray feathers and white feathers. So he comes off as being very, very elegant, I would say. And you can see even the feathers have sort of Patterns in them, stripes in them, you see around his neck. And he, of course, has iridescence in the back of his neck. He has purple, iridescent. And he's pretty calm. I say he needs to gain a little weight before he gets released. You can feel it in his breastbone. It's a little bit thin right now, but he's pretty calm.

[Kusha Navadar]

Can you point out some of the evolutionary features that you were just talking about and how they look on Kahlua? You mentioned the breast muscle, for instance.

[Andrew Garn]

So the breast muscle, which is by right here, which is the keel. Well, that's the keel bone right here, which is where the wishbone comes from. That's one third of the body mass, that breast muscle, and it directly controls the wings. So that's why they're such incredible fliers. They also have very specialized brains and eyes. Half of their brain is really for visual. Visual accommodation. So they have to be able to function by always being aware of predators. So while they're eating, they have to see predators, but also focusing on their food. So, you know, they say bird brains, but they make a lot with a small brain. And of course, they have to have as small brain as possible for the weight. Right. And they've also. Many, many birds, except for ducks, have evolved not to have trigger warning penises because that it's weight. So when they have. When they make love, and there's actually a picture in the book of it, it happens in about five seconds, so you can't really blink. And the male will do dance where he puffs up, you may have seen this, and starts cooing and circling the female. And sometimes the female will just turn around and go ooh and just fly away. But sometimes they'll be receptive and they'll sort of bend down and the male pigeon will leap on the back and they have what's called a cockle kiss, where the coacas will touch for about five seconds. And the semen from inside the pigeon goes inside the female pigeon, where it will meet an egg. And they will. It will incubate a baby, it will fertilize a baby.

[Kusha Navadar]

I'm looking at Kahlua right now. He is so chill. I don't know if listeners heard him coo before, but he's like kissing your nose. He's right up against the mic. So maybe listeners, you can hear. What are some of the most common issues that Kahlua might face out in the world that pigeons generally need to deal with?

[Andrew Garn]

Yeah, and that's a good question, because a pigeon that is a pet will live to 20, sometimes even 30 years. But unfortunately, the ones in the street just face so many dangers, so they will only live one to three years. You know, they get hit by bicycles, cars, you know, run over. So it's a tough life for them. And that's, you know, I have to take my hat off to them because they are survivors. You know, when I see, you know, there's some pigeons live by the Port Authority, it's like the worst place for pigeons. And people. And people feed them donuts there because that's the kind of food you get at the Port Authority. And they don't. They're not the healthiest looking pigeons. I live near a park, and the pigeons there get pretty good food. And an interesting fact is before the pandemic, I would always keep track of them. And There was about 55 pigeons in the flock. Since the pandemic is over, there are 150 pigeons. Because I think during the pandemic, everybody had no connection to nature. So they would come to the park and everybody thought, oh, these pigeons are starving to death. But no, they were not.

[Kusha Navadar]

Let's go to Peter in Queens. Hey, Peter, welcome to the show.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Hi.

[Andrew Garn]

How are you? Good.

[Kusha Navadar]

What's your question?

[Sandra from Wayne]

I just want. I have a question, A comment. One is that I often spot ones with different colors, like all white or all brown.

[Paul from Brooklyn]

Are they doves?

[Sandra from Wayne]

Are they pigeons?

[Andrew Garn]

Well, pigeons are doves.

[Sandra from Wayne]

And the second.

[Andrew Garn]

Pigeons are doves.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Second is a comment.

[Andrew Garn]

Yeah, go ahead. The second comment is that I don't know if you realize that Pennsylvania is.

[Sandra from Wayne]

The only state that allows live pigeon.

[Andrew Garn]

Shoots, which is terrible. Oh, yeah, of course. I actually work with the nypd. They did have an animal squad and they were investigating this for years because people steal them, steal pigeons off the street, believe it or not. They have these powered nets and they just throw them and they'll pick up like, they'll throw down seed and then they'll use these nets and they'll pick up like 30 to 40 pigeons at a time and put them in the back of their van. And there's a couple of guys that do it. They've been doing it for years. They get a dollar or two per pigeon and they drive them to Pennsylvania. And I've caught them red handed. And they are just. They don't care. I actually got a guy to release some. He had them in a box. But yeah, because Pennsylvania won't change its law. So these street pigeons get taken there and they have live pigeon shoots and they, you know, they're just left sort of half dead. It's very sad.

[Kusha Navadar]

Paul, thanks so much for that call. Looking at the clock. Let's end this on a high note.

[Andrew Garn]

Oh, yes.

[Kusha Navadar]

What's your favorite thing about pigeons, Andrew?

[Andrew Garn]

God, there's so many things. It's sort of endless. You know, I can just sit and watch them, and it gives me a lot of joy. I think to see the joy that it brings to a lot of people in New makes me happy. And I think my favorite thing is being able to do this book is when I meet people and sometimes total strangers, they say, you know, I kind of hated pigeons before, but then I saw your book, and it totally turned me around. So, I mean, that was my goal from the beginning. So I feel happy about that.

[Kusha Navadar]

I know one person who said that to you.

[Andrew Garn]

Yeah, I heard that. There was this guy. He's like a radio announcer guy. Yeah, he said the same thing. So it made me very happy. And, you know, it's for pigeons. It's not. It's not about me. It's for. About pigeons. I mean, look. Look at how innocent and beautiful and he feel, you know, they're so connected to humans. Like, he's looking at me, this little pigeon.

[Sandra from Wayne]

Absolutely.

[Kusha Navadar]

And, you know, you've made us so happy by. By being here. I'm talking to Kalua, but, Andrew, you too. Oh, thank you for joining us.

[Andrew Garn]

I wish he would say a little something. He's kind of shy around the microphone.

[Kusha Navadar]

We'll put a pin in it, but maybe we can hear it during the outro. Andrew Carn is a photographer and writer. His latest book is titled the New York behind the Feathers. Andrew Kahlua, thanks so much for hanging out with us.

[Andrew Garn]

Thanks for having us. That was fantastic. And thank you, Kahlua.

[Kusha Navadar]

Coming up on tomorrow's show, comedian and songsmith Tim Minchin. He's on his first solo tour in North America in over a decade, and he's about to arrive here in New York. He joins us to discuss an unfunny evening with Tim Minchin and his piano. Have a great day.

[Andrew Garn]

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[McDonald's Customer]

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[Andrew Garn]

Yeah.

[Kusha Navadar]

I'll let you get back to your food.

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[Andrew Garn]

All right. Welcome to McDonald's.

[McDonald's Employee]

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[McDonald's Customer]

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