Podcast Summary: All Of It – Immersive Play “Sleep No More” Closing in March
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Jonathan Hochwald (Producer, Immersive Productions), Ilana Gilovich (Chief Storyteller)
Date: January 23, 2024
Episode Overview
This episode of All Of It dives into the closing of Sleep No More, the landmark immersive theater experience inspired by Shakespeare’s Macbeth, which has run for over 13 years at New York’s McKittrick Hotel. Host Alison Stewart is joined by producer Jonathan Hochwald and chief storyteller Ilana Gilovich to reflect on the unique qualities of Sleep No More, its influence, its challenges, and its lasting legacy in the city’s theater landscape. The conversation touches on the creative process, the meaning of immersive theater, audience experiences, and why the show is concluding.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Origins and Challenges of “Sleep No More”
[02:59]
- Jonathan Hochwald describes initial doubts and the risk:
- Immersive theater was a new concept; “We really set out with a short run in mind of six weeks, and we’ve just continued to extend ever since. ... The biggest challenge was really believing instinctively that this would connect and then wondering how the word of mouth would spread …”
- Importance of word-of-mouth for show success:
- “It was really just what I think the biggest challenge was, really believing instinctively that this would connect ... it’s like a reason we all want to be in New York is for things like this.”
The Macbeth Superstition & Show’s Style
[04:30]
- Alison Stewart asks about theater superstition (“the Scottish play”):
- Ilana Gilovich on invoking Macbeth directly:
- “We’re very brazen and bold at the McKittrick. We say the title name all the time.”
- Sleep No More blends various art forms—dance, music, visual arts—making superstition less resonant.
Defining Immersive Theater & “Promenade Theatre”
[05:17]
- Jonathan Hochwald clarifies:
- “Promenade Theatre … means that the audience is free to roam ... like in a dream, you follow what interests you and piece things together.”
- Audiences aren’t seated; they move through the six floors, pursuing stories as they wish.
Audience Calls: Unique Experiences
[06:15]
- Alexander (caller):
- Shares different experiences when attending twice – once following action closely, once observing audience and performers:
- “Go your own route, connect at the end, have a drink and tell your tales.”
- Shares different experiences when attending twice – once following action closely, once observing audience and performers:
- Christina (caller, [09:29])
- Reminisces about attending before COVID:
- “The shops, the bedroom … the dance performances … very compelling. The whole thing very memorable. And of course, the setting makes it just incredible. … It’s spooky, it's eerie ... Loved it, loved it. Congrats. I can’t believe. 13 years. Wow.”
- Reminisces about attending before COVID:
The Role of Chief Storyteller
[07:12]
- Ilana Gilovich explains her evolving contribution:
- Blending academic research with performance, she crafts the narrative arc of the audience's journey:
- “So really, as a storyteller, particularly in a production without words, we’re trying to think about how to scaffold information, how to provide a lot of structure and just enough so that people can have freedom to roam and still retain that sense of mystery.”
- Blending academic research with performance, she crafts the narrative arc of the audience's journey:
The Iconic Mask
[08:06]
- Caller Michael asks about the masquerade mask tradition:
- Jonathan Hochwald:
- The mask makes the audience feel anonymous and bold, separating them from cast, and giving agency:
- “It cuts off a little bit of your peripheral vision, allows you to be a bit anonymous and gives you agency … to really absorb the story in a different way.”
- The mask makes the audience feel anonymous and bold, separating them from cast, and giving agency:
- Ilana Gilovich:
- The mask evokes 1930s film noir and the cinematic “camera” perspective, forming a new “fourth wall”:
- “Part of the beauty of the mask is it’s sort of letting an audience member be a camera and look out from behind their eyes ... the mask acts as that kind of fourth wall to distinguish between audience member and performer.”
- The mask evokes 1930s film noir and the cinematic “camera” perspective, forming a new “fourth wall”:
Casting and Performer Skills
[11:18]
- Alison Stewart wonders about unique casting needs.
- Ilana Gilovich:
- Performers must be both virtuosic dancers and able to channel lifelike, “pedestrian” movement.
- “You’re thinking about people who both have incredible talent, but also the awareness and the sensibility to really tell a very simplistic story and let this gargantuan, really meticulously designed set also speak for itself.”
- Performers must be both virtuosic dancers and able to channel lifelike, “pedestrian” movement.
Artistry, Ephemeral Experience, and Repeat Visits
[12:23]
- Jonathan Hochwald:
- Defines the show as a living work of art:
- “It’s an organic, living, breathing masterpiece, I think, of theatrical art that you’re actually in as an audience member and able to experience in a countless, myriad number of ways.”
- Defines the show as a living work of art:
- The show is purposefully layered so returning guests have new experiences each time.
Tips for First-Time Attendees
[13:41]
- Ilana Gilovich:
- Emphasizes being present:
- “Trusting yourself. ... This is such a glorious opportunity to really check in with yourself and honor your instincts. ... Sense where you inherently want to go and follow those instincts as best you can.”
- Emphasizes being present:
Influence Beyond Theater
[14:21]
- Text from Michelle in New Jersey:
- “I wonder if the producers know how inspiring it’s been to my field—museums. … Always left mind blown and inspired about what is possible with immersive design. Even in museums of art and history, its influence will be lasting.”
Why is Sleep No More Closing?
[14:41]
- Alison Stewart asks about the decision to close the show.
- Jonathan Hochwald:
- Stresses the importance of ending strong rather than fading away:
- “It’s always bittersweet in a way that it has a beginning, a middle and an end. … To finish up at the right time and to finish up strong and have it out there long enough for as many people as possible to have experienced it … To be able to kind of manage this last phase of this chapter of this book, I think was really important to us and to end in a place where, you know, we were going out on top with the best cast and the best experience.”
- Stresses the importance of ending strong rather than fading away:
Notable Quotes
- “We really set out with a short run in mind of six weeks, and we’ve just continued to extend ever since. … The biggest challenge was really believing instinctively that this would connect.”
– Jonathan Hochwald, Producer ([02:59]) - “We’re very brazen and bold at the McKittrick. We say the title name all the time.”
– Ilana Gilovich, Chief Storyteller ([04:35]) - “Promenade Theatre … means that the audience is free to roam ... in a sense, a world that we've tried to create where almost like in a dream, you follow what interests you and piece things together.”
– Jonathan Hochwald ([05:23]) - “Part of the beauty of the mask is it’s sort of letting an audience member be a camera and look out from behind their eyes … the mask acts as that kind of fourth wall to distinguish between audience member and performer.”
– Ilana Gilovich ([08:54]) - “We don’t want people to attend the production and say, ‘I want to tell you about what I saw last night.’ We want to say, ‘This is what happened to me last night.’”
– Ilana Gilovich ([11:27]) - “It's an organic, living, breathing masterpiece…I think that's been a big part of why it’s connected and really touched a nerve here in New York.”
– Jonathan Hochwald ([12:29]) - “Trusting yourself. We have such scant experiences nowadays to be off of our phones, present, embodied really in the moment. And this is such a glorious opportunity to really check in with yourself and honor your instincts.”
– Ilana Gilovich ([13:41]) - “It’s always bittersweet in a way that it has a beginning, a middle and an end… to finish up strong and have it out there long enough for as many people as possible to have experienced it.”
– Jonathan Hochwald ([14:44])
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:59 – Hochwald on initial challenges and word-of-mouth
- 04:35 – Gilovich on Macbeth superstition at McKittrick
- 05:17 – Explanation of Promenade Theatre
- 06:21-06:55 – Caller Alexander’s dual experiences/recommendation
- 07:12 – Gilovich’s role as chief storyteller
- 08:17 – Audience masked anonymity explained by Hochwald and Gilovich
- 09:29-10:32 – Caller Christina’s memories and mask experience
- 11:27 – Gilovich on performer skill set for immersive lifelikeness
- 12:29 – Hochwald on ephemeral, living art, repeat visits
- 13:41 – Gilovich’s advice to first-time attendees
- 14:21 – Museum professional inspired by Sleep No More
- 14:44 – Why the show is closing
Tone and Takeaways
This episode balances nostalgia, behind-the-scenes insights, and lively audience anecdotes. The hosts and guests speak with affection, fascination, and pride for the show’s creative risks and impact. If you’ve never experienced Sleep No More, their insights make clear why it’s considered a New York landmark, how it invites attendees to be present in their own story, and why its closing is bittersweet. The segment serves as a tribute to what immersive theater can be—and the unique magic it brought to thousands in the city.