Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Episode: In Memory of Agnes Gund
Date: September 22, 2025

This episode is a tribute to Agnes Gund, the renowned philanthropist, art collector, and former president of MoMA, who passed away at 87. The conversation is a replay of a 2020 interview with Agnes Gund and her daughter, filmmaker Catherine Gund, about the documentary “Aggie.” The discussion delves into Agnes’s passion for art, her lifelong commitment to social equity—including pioneering arts education and justice reform—and the personal values that shaped her public work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Filming Agnes Gund

• Catherine describes the peculiar challenge of documenting her mother’s life:
  • “It was the sort of central challenge in making this film was trying to focus a spotlight on someone who can't stand having the spotlight focused on them.” (01:27, Katherine Gund)
• Catherine explains her reluctance to pursue the film until Agnes’s extraordinary decision to sell a prized Lichtenstein painting for social good motivated her.

2. Turning Art Into Justice

• The catalyst for the film and much of the conversation was Agnes’s decision to sell a Roy Lichtenstein painting for $165 million to start the Art for Justice Fund, combating mass incarceration.
  • “She sold it to turn art into justice, into ending mass incarceration. And I thought that was an unbelievable model… I want other people to… feel their agency. And I feel like that's what she's a model of for me.” (01:52, Katherine Gund)
• Agnes’s philosophy reflects her drive to make art a force for social change:
  • “I thought what Ava’s [DuVernay, ‘13th’] point was was that there were so many black and brown people that were put in jail as compared to white people, and this just didn't seem right.” (13:24, Agnes Gund)

3. Early Love for Art and Museums

• Agnes reminisces about formative experiences at the Cleveland Museum of Art:
  • “I loved going around. I loved seeing very many of the things. Some of them are still up that I looked at… But the Cleveland has always been dear to my heart, and especially this museum.” (03:20, Agnes Gund)
• Family tradition played a role; multiple siblings attended art classes.

4. The Pull of New York City

• On moving to NYC and finding belonging, Agnes expresses the city’s emotional energy:
  • “It's because of, I guess, the emotion of the place you feel. One feels very much that there's a speed that everything's going at... but there are places that you can go where you can relax and be by yourself.” (06:02, Agnes Gund)
• New York emerges as a symbol of opportunity, diversity, and connection.

5. Studio in a School and Supporting the Excluded

• Catherine draws a direct line from Agnes’s founding of Studio in a School to later activism:
  • “It's about giving voice to people… elementary school, public school students or women artists or incarcerated people, all kinds of people whose voice wasn't welcome to shine, whose voice wasn't amplified… this belief that everybody mattered…” (07:38, Katherine Gund)
• Agnes’s hands-on engagement with art programs in prisons demonstrates her belief in the transformative power of creative expression.

6. Art Philosophy: Accessibility over Investment

• Agnes opposes treating art as mere capital and underscores broad access:
  • “I've found that… people don't get enough chance to see art… I think that those are what, what attracts people and allows them the breadth that they need to have to go into museums for museums.” (10:16, Agnes Gund)
• Catherine remarks:
  • “She doesn't treat art like money… she gives it as gifts to the museums and the universities, and she's given… over 900 pieces to the Museum of Modern Art...” (11:23, Katherine Gund)
• The Lichtenstein sale was different because it redirected wealth for social justice, not personal gain.

7. Personal Dimensions: Family and Learning Across Difference

• The conversation touches on Agnes’s experience as a white grandmother to Black grandchildren:
  • “Most people that are white don't live with… people that are black… It's all positive. They're all very wonderful kids… There's a lot to say about their role in this world and what they want to do.” (15:50, Agnes Gund)
• Catherine adds a generational perspective:
  • “There is this way that she's open to learning, but we wouldn't be who we were if it weren't for how she functions in the world… as the country is becoming more multiracial…people will know.” (16:53, Katherine Gund)
• The family’s lived diversity shapes and deepens Agnes’s public commitments.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She sold it to turn art into justice, into ending mass incarceration.”
  — Katherine Gund (01:52)

• “I loved going around the Cleveland Museum... But the Cleveland has always been dear to my heart, and especially this museum.”
  — Agnes Gund (03:20)

• “It's about giving voice to people… this belief that everybody mattered and that the students would bring more of themselves to our society, if they were allowed to develop their critical thinking capacities...”
  — Katherine Gund (07:38)

• “I've found that… people don't get enough chance to see art and to… appreciate it. And I mean older art too.”
  — Agnes Gund (10:16)

• “She doesn't treat art like money… she's always, since the beginning… wanted it to go to the people.”
  — Katherine Gund (11:23)

• “What set it off was seeing Ava DuVernay’s film… there were so many black and brown people that were put in jail as compared to white people, and this just didn't seem right.”
  — Agnes Gund (13:24)

• “Most people that are white don't live with… people that are black… It's all positive. They're all very wonderful kids.”
  — Agnes Gund (15:50)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:27] – Katherine on filming Agnes; spotlight challenge
• [01:52] – Art for Justice Fund origins and intent
• [03:20] – Agnes’s childhood and early museum experiences
• [06:02] – Why Agnes felt she belonged in New York City
• [07:38] – Studio in a School and the link to social justice
• [10:16] – Agnes’s belief in broad access to art
• [11:23] – On giving art, not treating it as an investment
• [13:24] – The Lichtenstein sale and criminal justice motivations
• [15:50] – Agnes on being a white grandmother to Black grandchildren
• [16:53] – Catherine on family, learning, and societal change

Summary

This intimate conversation celebrates Agnes Gund’s vision of art as a vehicle for social change. With poignant reflections from her daughter Catherine, we learn how Agnes’s personal values—equity, inclusion, and access—drove her public work. From founding arts education initiatives to pioneering philanthropy in criminal justice reform, Agnes Gund’s legacy is honored as one of generosity, moral courage, and unwavering belief in art as a public good. The episode offers a rare, personal lens on how a singular New Yorker harnessed creativity for enduring societal impact.