Is There Really A Difference Between 'Good' and 'Instant' Coffee?

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

All Of It — Is There Really A Difference Between 'Good' and 'Instant' Coffee?

Host: Khushan Avadar (in for Alison Stewart) | Guest: Peter Baker
WNYC, May 13, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode of "All Of It" centers around a culture war staple: the debate over “good” (fresh, specialty, ritualistic) and “instant” coffee. Inspired by Peter Baker’s recent New York Times essay, host Khushan Avadar explores how coffee rituals shape our daily lives and asks listeners to weigh in. Throughout, the discussion balances personal stories, cultural inertia, affordability, and the pure need for caffeine—probing whether taste, process, cost, or convenience ultimately matter most.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Coffee Preferences as Identity, Ritual, and Necessity

• Peter Baker’s Shift to Instant Coffee

  • Peter, once a self-described coffee purist, now opts for instant coffee after becoming a parent of two young children. This shift is less about taste and more about time and priorities.
  • "It's not a fetish for me anymore." (04:25)
  • He reflects on how coffee rituals structured his mornings, but eventually became “a hassle and a drag.” Switching to instant coffee felt liberating.
    • "It was a thrill... I'm drinking coffee and, as I noted in the piece, it sort of put me in touch with some of my earlier life experiences." (06:16)
  • He notes instant coffee has improved in quality over the years and can still evoke comfort and nostalgia.

• Cultural Inertia and the Fetishization of Coffee

  • Baker criticizes the cultural pressures around “striving for better coffee” as a marker of adulthood or refinement.
  • "We sort of osmotically absorb this belief that striving for better coffee is just something that adults do, something that we should do." (05:16)
  • “Coffee creep” and “coffee drift” are terms he uses to describe how small upgrades become compulsory pursuits.

Listeners’ Perspectives

• Cost and Accessibility

  • Calvin (08:19) calculates that brewing with instant coffee is vastly more economical than buying daily coffee shop drinks—citing a $690 savings over time.
  • Multiple callers reference New York’s rising specialty coffee prices ($6–$7/cup), emphasizing budget pressures.

• Versatility and Convenience

  • Sarah (09:57): Discovered Nescafe while traveling in Mexico; finds instant coffee crucial for travel and times when “the ritual” isn’t possible.
  • Kay (18:35): “I even microwave my water for my coffee, so I’m instant all the way. I swear by Mount Hagen. So tasty.”
  • Anna (19:35): Keeps a massive cup going all day and reheats it multiple times; brewing and quantity trump ritual.
  • Liz (14:54): Makes one large pot a week and reheats daily—prefers taste but also values practicality for family compromise.
  • Linda (20:48): Combines Pour Over and instant (!), blending both worlds.
    • Peter’s Response: “I feel like Linda was sent here to break the Internet.” (21:18)

• Unusual Methods

  • Bob (11:41): Adds a green tea bag to coffee for unique taste and health benefits.
    • Peter’s Response: “I have never put a tea bag in a cup of instant coffee, but I will tomorrow morning, I promise.” (12:34)
  • Debate on microwaving water and repeated reheating—divides listeners and even production staff.

• Purists and Personal Taste

  • Cool Deep (22:00): Calling from India, says, “There’s no comparison... they are two different things. It’s like comparing a muffin with a croissant.”
    • Laments instant as the only option in Indian cafés, misses New York/Colombian pour over.
  • Listener Text (17:51): “I prefer high-quality coffee, freshly ground, for the same reason I prefer farm-raised tomatoes and corn... taste buds vary from person to person.”

The Role of Rituals

• Many callers and the guest recognize ritual as a key reason for favoring traditional preparation. Even those who opt for convenience recall savoring the structure and “story” a coffee ritual provides.
• Others, like Annie (13:49), view coffee purely as a caffeine delivery system and care only about effects, not method:
  • "Just give me the drug, give me the caffeine. Thank you so much." (14:01)

The Limits of the Argument

• Host and guest agree: Coffee habits reveal larger priorities—time, comfort, identity, pragmatism—and the “right” coffee is intensely personal.
• Baker’s closing thought:
  • "...appreciate your rituals and cultivate them and honor them, but also don't get so attached to them beyond the point where they're working for you." (13:01)
• No consensus emerges; diversity of method is celebrated. (“People will get caffeine however they want.” 22:53)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Coffee Rituals:
  • Peter Baker: "It turns the morning into a story with chapters. And that can be very comforting and very rewarding." (06:16)
• On Cost:
  • Calvin: "It's about a $690 savings buying a 14-ounce Nescafe instant coffee." (08:19)
• On Combining Methods:
  • Linda: "I always add a spoonful of instant before I do the pour over. So it's instant coffee.” (20:48)
    • Peter: "I feel like Linda was sent here to break the Internet.” (21:18)
• On Taste and Place:
  • Cool Deep (from India): "There's no comparison... it's like comparing a muffin with a croissant. So you can't compare them." (22:03)
• On Ritual vs. Utility:
  • Annie: "Just give me the drug, give me the caffeine. Thank you so much." (14:01)
• On Experimentation:
  • Bob: "If you put a green tea bag inside a good cup of coffee... the flavor is unique and good." (11:41)
    • Peter: “I have never put a tea bag in a cup of instant coffee, but I will tomorrow morning, I promise.” (12:34)

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Key Timestamps

• [03:53] — Introduction to Small Stakes, Big Opinions: Coffee Edition
• [04:25] — Peter Baker discusses his coffee ritual and its decline
• [06:16] — Ritual as “chapters” of the morning, comfort vs. hassle
• [08:19] — Calvin’s cost breakdown of instant vs. specialty coffee
• [09:57] — Sarah’s dual approach: purist at home, instant for travel
• [11:41] — Bob shares the green tea bag experiment
• [13:01] — Peter reflects on not clinging to rituals that don’t serve you
• [13:49] — Annie's stance: utility and caffeine over ritual
• [14:54] — Liz’s make-ahead and reheat method
• [18:35] — Kay praises instant and mentions Mount Hagen brand
• [20:48] — Linda mixes instant with pour over (“breaks the Internet”)
• [22:00] — Cool Deep from India: Coffee culture differences and taste

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Tone & Takeaway

The episode is lively, open-minded, and community-driven—marked by playful banter, earnest personal stories, and strong preferences. Coffee, as discussed, is woven closely with identity, memory, practicality, and pleasure. Whether you love intricate brewing or are instant all the way, the ultimate consensus is that “coffee is what you make of it”—figuratively and literally.

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For more, follow Peter Baker at Tracks on Tracks (Substack), and share your own coffee stance with All Of It.

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Transcript

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You're listening to all of it. I'm Khushan Avadar, in for Alison Stewart. Hey, guess time for another installment of our series. Small stakes, big opinions. And this time we're talking about coffee. We all have our morning rituals to get the day going. Some of us like to watch the news or check social media. Others prefer a nice breakfast or maybe just a cup of fresh coffee. I'm sure a lot of us have heard this commercial before. A lot of folks take their coffee habits seriously. Whether it's how the coffee is prepared. You got pour over French press, espresso. Could be what kind of beans are used and how they take it. Sugar, cream, black. You have purists who won't set foot in a Starbucks. And those who order on their Starbucks apps daily. Some of us enjoy the ritual of making our own. Others, just like the rocket fuel you can get at some bodegas or gas stations. Well, the author of a recent piece in the New York Times argued his case against, quote, unquote, good coffee, basically saying that, quote, instant coffee tastes just okay. And that's fine by him. The author, writer and novelist Peter Baker, editor of Tracks on Tracks, which is a new music publication on substack, joins us today to discuss why exactly he made the switch from ground coffee to instant. And we ask you about how you like coffee. Peter, welcome to all of it.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Great to have you. And I just gotta say, I do not have a dog in this fight. Full disclosure, I do not drink coffee. So I feel like in this situation I can be a good arbiter of both sides because I am just open to whatever perspective listeners have. And listeners we do want to hear from you. What is your taste in coffee? Are you for or against instant coffee or just lo fi coffee in general? Or do you like the ritual of making a good, good cup with quality beans? Do you make coffee at home or do you pick one up every day? If you're a coffee drinker, how do you take your coffee? And is there any brand, flavor or style you just won't do? We're ready to throw down with your opinions, so give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212433, WNYC. Or hit us up on Social while you're waiting in line at Starbucks. We're at all of it, wnyc. So, Peter, let's start with your story. You used to drink what you call good coff.

[C]

I did and I still will, but I'm less ritualistically attached to it. It's not a fetish for me anymore, I would say.

[A]

What happened that made that shift?

[C]

I have two kids, one who's one year old and one who's three years old. And that's the short of it. My relationship to time, especially time in the early morning hours, is really different. It's not so much about savoring the smell of my beans and the sound of the grinder and whatever else. It's about waking up and getting my kids fed and dressed.

[A]

You used a specific term that I want to pick up on there. You said fetish. Can you unpack that a little bit? Do you feel like some folks just get a little bit too into the beans when it comes to making a good cup of joe, I don't think.

[C]

There'S such a thing as being too into it, but I think there's an almost like cultural inertia to some of these things. Grow up and we realize there's such a thing as better coffee. And we sort of osmotically absorb this belief that sort of striving for better coffee is just something that adults do, something that we should do. And there's a sort of like coffee Creep or Coffee Drift.

[A]

Listeners, if you agree with him, please give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 12433, WNYC. So, Peter, you wrote about how you loved the ritual of it all, which included picking the beans, grinding them, and placing the grounds in the filter. What sort of satisfaction did it give you to make your own coffee in the morning? And was it hard to stop once, once, you know, your second child was born?

[C]

I think like all rituals, the comfort comes from it sort of gives shape to time. It turns the morning, even in a micro level, it turns the morning into a story with chapters. And that can be very comforting and very rewarding. And I think I held on to it a little bit longer than it was useful to me and it was becoming not comforting and not rewarding. It was becoming a hassle and a drag and another few things on my daily list of things. And the moment that I realized, oh, I could, you know, knock some of these things off the list, shave a couple minutes off there, just dump a, dump a scoop of instant crystals in and be drinking a pretty decent cup of coffee. I do think instant has gotten better over the years and even the old low end instant is not as bad as some of your listeners may think if they haven't had it in a while. It was a thrill. I'm drinking coffee and as I noted in the piece, it sort of put me in touch with some of my earlier life experiences drinking coffee which were not at all about the taste or the quality of my beans or of my roast or my knowledge of coffee esoterica or anything. It was, wow, there's this sort of magical juice that can give me a boost late at night in the library or out on some adventure with my friends.

[A]

Yeah, so, you know, I hear you saying that instant coffee tastes better than it used to, trust me. And the joy of taking that time to make the coffee just wasn't worth it. When you can get a decent cup of joe to Begin with listeners. How do you feel about it? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. Peter, the calls are coming in, let's get to them. Calvin in Wayne, Pennsylvania. Hey Calvin, what do you think?

[B]

Hey Peter, I've been a read your piece and I'm a lifelong instant coffee drinker. I get beat up by all the coffee purists my whole life. One of the arguments that you didn't mention your piece was the cost savings. So if you take a, I hope I'm doing the math right but if you take a 14 ounce Nescafe instant coffee from Walmart, it's about $21, it says there that it has 2108 ounce cups and to about in the 14 ounce, if you compare that to Starbucks which is say 350 a cup and you do the math, it's about $690 savings buying a 14 ounce Nescafe instant Coffee. So the, the finances of this are obviously on the side of instant coffee drinkers.

[A]

Calvin, thank you so much for that call. You know, important element here is the cost. There was just a story that came out on Weekend Edition from WNYC yesterday saying that according to the Eater New York, the average cup of specialized coffee in New York City now costs between six and seven dollars. And it's because everything is more expensive from getting the, to sourcing them to even just what the rent is in the city for these coffee shops. So really appreciate Calvin, your perspective. You mentioned Nescafe and there is somebody who just called in from lower Manhattan who has opinions about Nescafe. Sarah, hi, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi, thanks for having me. Taking my call. I will say it once and I'll say it again. Nescafe is the way. And I first discovered Nescafe in Mexico probably 25, 30 years ago traveling there and that's all I would get in the cafes was Nescafe with evaporated milk. It was delicious. And I am a pretty much of a coffee purist in my adult life. We grind our coffee every morning. We've got a, oh, I forgot the name of it. It's a pour over drip coffee maker and I'm just planning a trip to Greece and I just bought a big jar Nescafe to take with me.

[A]

So Sarah, would you say that you're a purist or would you say hey, the instant coffee still works for me pretty well. Which side are you on?

[B]

I'm a purist and the instant coffee really works for me. If you're going to be if you're going to be somewhere and traveling and you don't know that you're going to have coffee first thing, you know, in the morning, you can take Nescafe with you and one of those little, you know, containers of milk, stick it in your suitcase that, you know isn't perishable, and you know you've got coffee first thing in the morning.

[A]

Sarah, thank you so much for that. So we've heard from a bunch of folks already that instant coffee works for them. How about on the other side? If you don't like instant coffee and you think it's not worth it and it is worth it to take the time to make a nice cup of coffee, give us a call. We want to hear the other side. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Let's go to Bob in Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey. Hey, Bob, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi. Hey. I wanted to say that whether it's instant or brewed, my comment transcends both of those. And you know, people put all kinds of things in coffee, nutmeg and vanilla. What I discovered is that if you put a green tea bag inside a good cup of coffee and I don't sweeten it or use any cream, the flavor is unique and good. A black tea bag won't work as well as green tea, but now I get all the phytochemicals of green tea plus all the ones of coffee and the taste is really good.

[A]

Wow, Bob, how did you find that out?

[B]

I started experimenting. Obviously, I tried the black tea. I tried all these different things, but when I hit the green tea, this is it.

[A]

Bob, thanks so much for that call. Peter, have you ever tried experimenting with instant coffee and putting bags of tea in there for taste?

[C]

I have never put a tea bag in a cup of instant coffee, but I will tomorrow morning, I promise. I really. Because I really like green tea.

[A]

Oh, okay. You know, I'm also wondering how the shift from going to instant or from, you know, making your own cup to going to instant coffee has changed other parts of your life. Has switching away from, like, good coffee made it maybe harder to hang out with people or any other impacts in your life that you've seen?

[C]

No, I think for me, it's a reminder not to appreciate your rituals and cultivate them and honor them, but also don't get so attached to them beyond the point where they're working for you. And I think that's something I can carry into parts of my life beyond my morning coffee.

[A]

That is good perspective. We've got a text from Michael in Manhattan. It reads, instant coffee has its place as a flavoring for whipped cream or marshmallow mascarpone as a delivery vehicle for caffeine. Instant coffee is on the same level as no do's. Effective but unappetizing. All right, Michael from Manhattan throwing down. I think we have a call here that's going to pair nicely with that. We have Annie from Westchester. Hey, Annie. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm so sorry. I was just on and I'm loving this discussion of drugs in this current day.

[A]

Well, welcome back.

[B]

Thank you. For me, caffeine, I just. I am addicted. I need it in the morning. I will take it in instant coffee, regular coffee, or in the form of a Red Bull. Don't care. However, I do appreciate and Peter brought up the word ritual early, earlier. I think for human beings, the idea of ritual, you know, in terms of morning routine is so key. So if you are someone who wants to get the filter and grind the beans and wait and wait and wait, and that's, you know, a benefit for your life, then that's awesome. Do that. But for me, personally, I don't care. Just give me the drug, give me the caffeine. Thank you so much. Appreciate you guys.

[A]

Annie, you're like our resident drug, I guess, commentator for today. So thank you so much for being game and listening.

[B]

Happy to hear that. Thank you.

[A]

Absolutely. Let's go to Liz in Hoboken. Hey, Liz, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi. Thanks for taking my call. After all these praises for instant coffee, I understand how convenient it is, but it really isn't anything like real coffee. And the way I solved the problem myself is my husband doesn't like coffee, doesn't like the smell of it or anything. So I make a big pot once a week, keep it in the fridge, and then every morning, I heat up in the microwave half a cup of milk and pour in some of this very strong coffee, and it comes out just the right temperature. It's delicious. And I get Costco, giant tubs of coffee, so they're very cheap and it's.

[A]

Able to last through the week. You said.

[B]

Oh, easily, easily.

[A]

Peter, have you ever tried what Liz is describing to make a lot of coffee all at once and peter it out that way?

[C]

I've done that. I've had a lot of experiments. And once this piece came out, people love to talk about coffee as you're finding, because it's sort of a pathway to just talking about life. So I don't think anything I've ever written has gotten me more emails or comments on the web or things like that. And people had all kinds of ideas from what this caller is discussing to various forms of coffee, freezing and concentrating and everything. And there's all kinds of wonderful ideas out there. And when my children are perhaps 10 and seven, I will consider some.

[A]

Is there a specific suggestion that you've read where you thought, oh, that's something that I want to try out myself?

[C]

Well, just right here. I mean, I really do have to put a green tea bag in my coffee. I know that for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got to try that out and got to let us know how it is. Let's go to Scott in Crown Heights. Hey Scott, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi. I just recently started doing it and making it at home, like grinding my own beans. I use a mocha pot and I make a sort of quasi latte with it. I put milk in the microwave and then I can use a little, a little tiny French press and pump it and you get like a. Honestly, I've given them to people who like a latte from a coffee shop and they're like, this is, this is, you know, why go to a coffee shop anymore? And I just wanted to maybe comment on, I started probably just because I was, I don't typically remember to bring my reusable mug everywhere. And so I was tired of just like ordering a coffee every day and getting the plastic. You can make it ice too. You can make it however. But it's like become a ritual. But I agree with the this, the sentiment of like the utility of coffee just like get it into you as well. But I just wanted to share my own reasoning for doing it, which is that it, I don't want to spend $7 for a latte like every single day and like get a paper cup every time I buy it.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And Scott, you know, first, thanks for that call. And second, it does seem like the cost and the utilitarianism is a major theme that's coming out from a lot of folks. I want to hear from the other side. And we got a text that I want to bring up before we go to more call. The text reads, I prefer high quality coffee, freshly ground for the same reason I prefer farm raised tomatoes and corn. Some persons prefer one flavor in food and or beverage. Others prefer another flavor. Taste buds vary from person to person. I grind coffee, I saute Vegetables. What's the big deal? We hear that, you know, there's both sides to this, and I want to hear from more folks. So let's go to Kay in Montclair, New Jersey. Hey, Kay. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Hey, nice to be here.

[A]

What's your. Where do you stand?

[B]

I've been. Yeah, so I've been working from home since the start of COVID and honestly, I don't care about the ritual whatsoever. I even microwave my water for my coffee, so I'm instant all the way. And I swear by Mount Hagen. So tasty.

[A]

But what was that brand that you just said?

[B]

It's called Mount Hagen. It's a German brand.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

So you, a lot of Mount Hagen.

[A]

Fans out there, have you ever microwaved Peter, your, your, your water? Is that how far you go to for the quick fix?

[C]

Yeah, I've done it.

[A]

Hey, listeners, if you have microwaved your water and you feel like that is something worth doing or you think that is just not even worth it, take the two minutes to boil the water. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-WNYC. Our producer Kate just messaged me and said microwaving water is hateful in all caps. So we've got one person who disagrees at least. Let's go to Ann Chester. Hi, Anna. Welcome to the show.

[B]

Hi, how are you? Thanks for taking my call. Part of my call was scooped by the previous caller who said she makes a pot and puts it in the fridge. Because I was going to say that I just make a pot and I drink a pot every day. But if I don't drink it all, then I drink it the next day and I'm going to go even out, even farther and just say what I do is I have a cup going. I have a massive cup. I drink it black and I like it brewed because I like it very strong. So I need to make it myself. But beyond that, I don't care. So I keep it running all day. And if I drink half a cup and I walk away for an hour, I'll put it in the microwave. And if I don't drink that, then I'll put it in the microwave two hours later.

[A]

So you will microwave multiple times during the day?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Wow. So it's really just about the caffeine. Also, I'm so sorry that your comment got scooped, but at least you made a great coffee pun out of it because you got scooped. Just want to point that out to everyone. Very genius of you. Anna, thanks so much for call. So we've got Linda in Lyndhurst, New York. Hey, Linda, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hey, hold on a second. Let me take you off speaker.

[A]

Okay, Linda.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Are you with us?

[B]

Better?

[A]

Yeah. That's great. So what side are you on?

[B]

I'm on both sides. I use a goose, boil my water. I make my coffee pour over good grinds, but pre ground, and I always add a spoonful of instant before I do the pour over. So it's instant coffee.

[A]

Oh, Linda, you there? I think we might have lost connection with Linda. It sounded like Linda was saying that she's on both sides of the fence there. Peter, as you're listening, it sounded like.

[C]

She'S adding instant to her pour over, which I've heard a lot in the aftermath of publishing this article, but I have not heard that. I feel like Linda was sent here to break the Internet.

[A]

Would you try that with that?

[C]

Amazing thought.

[A]

So as somebody who does not drink coffee, I need to understand what the big deal is about that doing instant with pour over. Is that like, sacrilegious or is there something really interesting there?

[C]

It's just two ends of this whole spectrum that we're talking about. I'm trying to think of an analogy from something else that's like, you know, going barefoot with a $10,000 suit or something.

[A]

Got it. We got time for one more caller. This one is from India. Hey, Cool Deep, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello. Good morning.

[A]

Hi, can you hear us?

[B]

Good morning. Yes. Okay, I got it. Okay. You know, I miss New York coffee. I mean, I'm calling you from India in Chandigarh because I lived in Jersey, worked in New York, and I want to say something. There's no comparison between a good New York coffee or Colombian coffee with an instant coffee. To me, they are two different things. It's like comparing, you know, muffin with the croissant. So you can't compare them.

[A]

And where do you sit on there, Khalil? Deep, are you all, Are you, are you firmly in the.

[B]

Oh, definitely on the pour. I mean, the pour over, you know, because in India, all you get is instant coffee. And I don't like it at all. Everywhere is instant coffee. You cannot get a pour over anywhere. You can get a cappuccino, but nowhere. Even McDonald's doesn't serve, you know, like, the pour over coffee. Can you imagine?

[A]

Cool team. I. I respect your dedication to this. Thank you so much for calling this. This has touched people far and wide. Peter, we've been discussing the benefits of drinking instant coffee versus ground coffee in another installment of Small Stakes, Big Opinions. Peter, I think the only thing we can take away from this is that people will get caffeine however they want. My guest has been Peter Baker, the editor of Tracks on Tracks, a new music publication on Substack, and who wrote the piece the Case Against Good Coffee. Instant coffee tastes just okay, and that's fine by me, featured in the New York Times. Peter, thank you so much for joining us.

[C]

Thank you.

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All right, unc. Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

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I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps.

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What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.