Podcast Summary: It’s Never Too Late to Start an Herb Garden

Show: All Of It with WNYC
Guest Host: Kate Hines (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Stephen Orr, Editor-in-Chief of Better Homes and Gardens and author of The New American Herbal
Air Date: May 29, 2024

Main Theme

This episode encourages listeners to start their own herb garden, regardless of experience or available space. Kate Hines, sitting in for Alison Stewart, is joined by gardening expert Stephen Orr to discuss the practical, environmental, and culinary advantages of homegrown herbs. The conversation is lively, accessible, and peppered with listener questions, helpful gardening tips, and inspiration for taking that first (or next) step in growing your own herbs—even in the urban confines of New York City.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Herb”

• Imprecise Boundaries:

  • “The definition of an herb is very imprecise... the broadest accepted definition is a plant that is useful to humans. So it’s almost like a domesticated animal in a way.” (Stephen Orr, 01:54)
  • Types of herbs: culinary (basil, thyme), medicinal (lungwort), industrial (linen, cotton).

• Culinary & Medicinal Focus:

  • Most people mean culinary and medicinal herbs in casual conversation. Attempts to define “herb” too narrowly get complicated.

2. Why Grow Your Own Herbs?

• Taste & Sustainability:

  • “There’s no bigger bang for your buck than herbs... a little clip of rosemary flavors a whole dish, a little bit of basil...” (Stephen Orr, 03:21)
  • Avoids plastic packaging and the environmental footprint of transportation.

• Space Efficiency:

  • Herbs require minimal space and yield frequent harvests—much more efficient than many vegetables for urban gardeners.

Notable Quote:

“Herbs, for the space they take up, are the most productive.”
—Stephen Orr (03:21)

3. Listener Q&A: Cilantro Challenges

• Bolting & Succession Sowing:
  • Both basil and cilantro tend to flower (“bolt”) in heat, quickly ending their harvest window.
  • “One way to get around that is to continually just be on top of it, cutting any flowering stalks... Just keep cutting the flower stalks. At some point, you’re probably going to lose your battle.” (Stephen Orr, 04:56)
  • Succession planting—sowing new seeds every few weeks—extends the season.

4. Starting Your Herb Garden

• Container Gardening & Drainage:

  • “The easiest way to grow herbs is in pots... Herbs really love drainage, so a pot is great.” (Stephen Orr, 06:27)
  • Mediterranean perennials (like rosemary, thyme) require particularly good drainage. Use pots or improve soil with sand/topsoil mix.

• Strawberry Pots:

  • “Those little pockets are fun to put herbs in... taller herbs like basil on the top, trailing rosemary or thyme coming out the side.” (Stephen Orr, 07:52)

5. Mint: Friend or Invader?

• Listener Experience:
  • “I let [mint] take over a whole section of my sunny front yard... I wish people would stop telling me it takes over, because I know that. That’s why I let it take over.” (Listener, 08:13)
• Expert Warning:
  • “I put it in a large pot... Mint is one of those things that will go along for a while, and then there’ll be a year where suddenly it really has taken over.” (Stephen Orr, 08:33)
  • Mint is best grown in containers unless you want it to dominate your garden.

Memorable Moment:

“Check back with us in five years. They won’t be able to because they’ll be wrapped in mint.”
—Kate Hines (09:21)

6. Sunlight & Fertilizer

• Sunlight:
  • “There’s not a lot of edible herbs that grow in the shade… think of a hillside above the Mediterranean, that’s what they like.” (Stephen Orr, 09:32)
• Fertilizer:
  • Over-fertilization leads to less flavorful herbs. “If you over fertilize your herbs, you’re taking out the power which is the essential oils of those leaves.” (Stephen Orr, 10:59)

7. Listener Q&A: Seeds, Timing, & Indoor Growing

• Planting From Seed:

  • Annual herbs (basil, cilantro, chives, dill) can still be sown outdoors in late spring/early summer. “You can keep doing it for a few weeks... Succession sowing is a great practice.” (Stephen Orr, 12:24)

• Grow Lights & Indoor Gardening:

  • “You can grow herbs indoors with grow lights... The hard part was getting them through the winter... in February, it just decides it can’t take the radiator heat. It gives up, clocks out.” (Stephen Orr, 12:56; 13:56)
  • Herbs fare better indoors in summer than winter; some grow lights are unattractive but effective.

8. Troubleshooting: Pests & Pruning

• Rosemary Issues (Powdery White Residue):

  • Likely pests (mealy bugs, whiteflies) or fungus. Solution: rinse thoroughly and regularly in sink or shower. (Stephen Orr, 14:21)

• Whitefly Infestations:

  • Use neem oil or insecticidal soap, but avoid strong chemicals. Outdoor air flow and less moisture may help. (Stephen Orr, 15:53-16:56)

• Where to Snip Herbs:

  • “Definitely the top... clip right above the leaf nodes.” Promotes bushier growth and branching. (Stephen Orr, 17:16)
  • Woody herbs (thyme, sage, rosemary): cut back hard in spring rather than summer.

Listener Q&A Rapid-Fire

• Vacation Watering:
  • “Hydroponics are the things that are going to help you when you’re traveling. Otherwise, phone a friend.” (Stephen Orr, 19:56)
• West Windows:
  • Strong sunlight through glass can burn seedlings—move plants away from windows or provide indirect light. Water seedlings from below. (Stephen Orr, 20:53)

9. Cooking with Herbs—Beyond Pesto

• Alternative Uses & Favorite Herbs:
  • “People use the term pesto, and what they mean is basil pesto… you can make pestos with sage or parsley.”
  • Italian salsa verde: parsley, capers, lemon, olive oil, optional basil/red pepper.
  • Marjoram praised as underused: “A more perfumey type of oregano... perfect for grilled vegetables or chicken.”
  • Tarragon: “Really good with chicken salad, really good on fish. I can’t get enough of tarragon.” (Stephen Orr, 22:03)

Notable Quotes:

“I made a great Italian salsa verde the other night. Parsley gets a bad rap. I love parsley!”
—Stephen Orr (22:03)

10. The Bay Leaf Debate

• Flavor or Folly?
  • “Bay leaf is so important... Laurus nobilis. If you’re not tasting bay, you’re using old bay leaves. The fresh... is even more transporting.” (Stephen Orr, 23:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Definition of “Herb”: 01:54
• Why Grow Your Own: 03:21
• Listener Q: Cilantro/Basil Bolting: 04:56
• Containers, Drainage, Strawberry Pot: 06:27-08:13
• Mint Discussions: 08:13-09:23
• Sunlight & Fertilizer: 09:32-10:59
• Listener Q: Planting Seeds Late: 11:07-12:24
• Grow Lights/Indoor Advice: 12:36-13:56
• Pest/Fungus Troubleshooting: 14:11-15:46
• Snipping & Pruning Herbs: 17:01-18:56
• Hydroponics/Vacationing: 19:04-20:45
• Seedlings & Sunburn: 20:53
• Cooking: Pestos, Salsa Verde, Marjoram, Parsley, Tarragon: 22:03
• Bay Leaf Discussion: 23:30-24:12

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Check back with us in five years. They won’t be able to because they’ll be wrapped in mint.” — Kate Hines (09:21)
• “If you over fertilize your herbs, you’re taking out the power which is the essential oils of those leaves.” — Stephen Orr (10:59)
• “Bay leaf is so important... If you’re not tasting bay, you’re using old bay leaves.” — Stephen Orr (23:39)
• “I love parsley. It has a strong green flavor...” — Stephen Orr (22:03)

Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode is filled with practical tips delivered in an accessible, sometimes humorous manner, making the topic feel inviting regardless of the listener’s gardening experience. Stephen Orr’s expertise is matched by his enthusiasm for herbs, and the diverse array of listener questions ensure the advice is applicable to city dwellers, beginners, and seasoned gardeners alike.

Whether you have a sunny windowsill, a balcony, or a whole backyard, “It’s Never Too Late to Start an Herb Garden” makes it clear: you’ve got more than enough reason and resources to bring new life (and flavor) into your home this growing season.