D (4:17)

So my first time encountering Baldwin was when I was a college sophomore. The first book that I ever read was the Fire Next Time. And I would say that the essay that stood out to me the most was a letter to my nephew.

B (4:33)

Why did that stand out to you the most?

D (4:36)

I mean, it really spoke to what it means to be black in America. And, you know, that's when I knew that, you know, James Baldwin was someone that I needed to read more of, you know, as a college student. And I wondered why I had not read Baldwin before, you know, that time, you know, in college, you know, because Baldwin was really, you know, telling a lot of hard truths about being black in America. So I think that that's what stood out to me the most.

B (5:09)

Charles, what was your first encounter with James Baldwin?

E (5:12)

So the first James Baldwin book I read was Giovanni's Room. I was a junior in college and I was a closeted young gay person and I signed up for a class on queer lit and I was totally scared, totally nervous about who would see that I was involved in this class. Totally scared. But James Baldwin was this on the syllabus? Giovanni's Room was the second book we read after Audre Lorde saw me a new spelling of my name. Pretty good syllabus the teacher had there. But in Giovanni's Room, it was the first novel that I read that really treated same sex relationships. Although it's not at all a happy story, it's true. It treats this relationship between two men with an authenticity and a respect that, you know, that was published in 1956, certainly a very early instance of this kind of respect and authenticity for those kinds of relationships. And I certainly had not read a book like that. So it was very important to me in terms of queer representation at a really important moment of my life.

B (6:37)

Barry, how did the library acquire so many of Baldwin's papers, writings, early drafts.

D (6:45)

So it was James Baldwin's dying wish for his papers to come to the Schomburg Center. So this was his home library growing up. You know, he was born right here in Harlem, right across the street from the Schomburg center at Harlem Hospital. So he visited the predecessor to the schomburg center, the 130 street branch library, quite often as a child. He's quoted as saying that he visited that library at least three or four times a week and that he read every book in this library. So he had a very, very close relationship with this library location. And, yeah, I think that's why he wanted his legacy to be deposited here. So after James Baldwin died in 1987, it took quite some time, you know, to really discuss with the family. But the papers eventually made their way here 30 years after his death in 2017, which is when the Schomburg acquired the papers and made them available to researchers.

B (7:49)

Let's talk to Jerry from Larchmont. Hi, Jerry. Thank you so much for calling in to all of it.

F (7:55)

Hi. So the first time that I encountered BALDWIN, I was 15 years old, working in Lower Manhattan, West 27th Street. And I had a break sitting in a basement, and I started reading the notes of a native son. It was revelatory. It was. I went to a high school that was mostly Jewish, but so most of the students were. Some were Greek, there were a few Chinese, and the others were African American or West Indian. And Baldwin's work, he was so clear. He was so on point and direct. I loved his language, and I loved his ability to manage the essay as an art form. I was taking AP French at the time. We were reading Montaigne, and I was able to get a sense of the essay as an art form. I later read Giovanni's Room in Russian because it wasn't allowed. I was living in Moscow. It wasn't allowed in Moscow at the time. It was translated from French.

B (9:11)

Jerry. Thank you so much, Charles. I wanted to ask about some of the exhibits that we get to see. There is this piece. I think it's in the Schomburgers exhibit, actually, and it says his nickname is Baldy.

E (9:26)

Yes, that's it. That's his high school yearbook. Yeah. James Baldwin went to DeWitt Clinton in the Bronx and where many illustrious people, people who ended up being very famous, went. But on his yearbook page, he has. His quotation is, fame is the spur, and ouch. It's in part reference to an Alexander Pope quote. But I think there was also a famous book that came out around that time. Called Fame is the Spur. But it's an indication that from very early on, this young man knew that he was destined for something big. You know, even when he was a little kid and a very precocious child who was encouraged by really important teachers, he had this idea of himself in the future as being special and important. He knew that he wanted to be a writer from very early on. His teacher, when he was just in grade school, helped him put on his first written play. It was staged by his classmates. He wrote the school song. So he was just this unbelievably talented young man who, through the encouragement of teachers, acquired this belief in himself that really propelled him through what was quite a difficult youth in Harlem in the 1930s for a young black man.

B (11:08)

You know, Barry, in the Schomburg exhibit is a journal, The Magpie from DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx. He was editor in chief of that publication. What themes or topics seem to be on his mind as a young man?

D (11:24)

So in the 1942 winter edition of the Magpie, the. That is what they call the patriotic edition. So those are during the war years. So a lot of themes, like in that particular issue, is about the war and reflections on the war. But in terms of Baldwin's contributions to that particular issue of the Magpie, it really runs the gamut. What I really find so very fascinating, you know, about Baldwin especially, like, as a young person, Charlie, you know, kind of alluded to it, but he's really offering, like, a very wide range of genres, you know, so he's experimenting with poetry. He's experimenting with short stories, interviews. In that particular issue, he interviews Countee Cullen, who was one of his teachers in junior high school at Frederick Douglass Junior High School. But also Countee Cullen was an alum of DeWitt Clinton High School. So a lot of the poetry, it's. You know, there are some themes of race. There are also some themes of faith as well. So, yeah, it just kind of really runs the gamut there. It's really interesting. So it's like Baldwin was thinking about a lot of things and experimenting with many different genres of the written word. So, again, just a very bright and talented young person.

B (12:57)

Let's talk to Maria from New Jersey. Hi, Maria. Thanks for calling.

G (13:02)

Hi, Alison. I wanted to say that, for me, as a Latina, I'm part of the Puerto Rican diaspora. James Baldwin, as well as Malcolm X and Pablo Neruda, are three of the most inspiring minds of the 20th century. And what I like particularly about Baldwin is every time that I hear his video, see his videos and listen to his speeches. He just presents a view of humanity and especially African Americans in a way that galvanizes me as a person and as an individual. So in my book, the measure of success is how much you impact other people, and Baldwin is at the top.

B (13:49)

Thank you so much for calling. My guests are Barry Brown and Charles Carter. We're talking about the exhibits as part of the New York Public Library Celebration of 100 Years of James Baldwin. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. This is all of IT on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue now with a commemoration of James Baldwin, born 100 years ago this August. Earlier this summer, I spoke to the curators of two exhibits dedicated to Baldwin's life and career. Barry Brown is the Schomburg center curator of manuscripts, archives and rare books and the curator of Jimmy God's Black Revolutionary Mouth. And Charles Carter is the curator of James Baldwin Mountain to Fire. Here's more of our conversation. The troubled relationship between Baldwin and stepfather was a clear source of anguish throughout Baldwin's life, especially in his early years. Charles how does that come through in both his public and private writings?

E (15:07)

Well, it's present just about all through the entirety of his oeuvre. And it starts with Go Tell it on the Mountain, which is probably his most autobiographical novel. He, just like John Grimes in the novel, right around age 14, was sort of at a crossroads where he was deciding, am I going to follow into my father into the life of the church, or am I going to branch out on my own and follow my own sort of artistic desires and inclinations? So right there from the beginning, struggling with his relationship with his father was present in the novel. And we see this in the manuscript that's on display. Actually, the manuscript from Go Tell it on the Mountain that's on display shows the part of the novel where John Grimes is walking actually in front of the New York Public Library building. It's his relationship with the New York Public Library was so strong that it ends up in his first book, even. But definitely the themes of dealing with his father's death. It was something that he worked on throughout the rest of his life.

B (16:24)

Barry he was born in Harlem. He went to school in the Bronx. What are some ways you can tell that Baldwin was a New Yorker?

D (16:33)

Oh, my gosh. I mean, I think that, you know, all throughout his life, you know, like, Baldwin is very much like a tried and true New Yorker, certainly, like in the exhibition, you know, Jimmy, you know, you can See that through every case, you know, it highlights every aspect of his literary career and legacy, but certainly, like, in particular, like his childhood, you know, and just kind of like, you know, his roots, you know, certainly. But also in looking through the correspondence, you know, but also photographs, you know, of Baldwin with his family, you know, he often traveled, you know, like, back and forth between Paris and New York. You know, he. You could get a sense that he really was recharged, you know, like, every time that he would come back to New York, every time that he would come back to Harlem, in particular, to spend time with his family, you know, and Charlie and I actually got a chance to hear some of that firsthand from one of his nephews. Karim Karipa, you know, talked about how Baldwin, you know, really got energy, you know, like, every time he came back to New York, you know, so these are, you know, these little elements that you see here and there throughout his papers, the correspondence, but also photographs. And that's certainly something that I think that comes out in really, both exhibitions.

B (18:05)

Charles, what can we learn about Baldwin's writing and editing from looking at the various drafts that people can see at the library?

E (18:12)

I think one of the most compelling aspects of seeing any writer's manuscripts on display is being able to trace their sort of authorial decisions, being able to see their writer's mind at work. We definitely see this with Baldwin, and what we learn is that he is very precise in terms of his decision making. One of the sort of flashiest ways that this is on display in Mountain to fire at the 42nd Street Library is with the epigraph page from Giovanni's room. It's the title page, and with an epigraph. So he starts with a typed quote from the biblical book of Job. You know, I'm sure it has a certain resonance with the book, but its implications may be not totally clear on the surface. Well, he crosses through that and writes in another quote from the Book of Job, and then decides that this is not what he wants either. Crosses through that, and then in very big, almost crayon, like some kind of writing implement. I think it's either a fat pencil or a crayon. He decides that his quote is going to be from Whitman. I am the man. I suffered. I was there. And of course, in the 1950s, Whitman was already very much sort of like a signifier of queerness. You know, men would carry a copy of Leaves of Grass as a sort of a secret indicator that they were gay. So he was on the title page. We're seeing him build up through starting with Job and then finally arriving at Whitman. He's building up the courage to be bold enough to quote Whitman on the title page and thereby sort of being out right at the beginning to those who are paying attention.

B (20:08)

Let's talk to JoJo calling in from Montclair. Hi, Jojo, thanks for calling all of it.

H (20:12)

Hello, Alison. How are you? First time caller. I was introduced to James Baldwin when I was in boarding school in England when I was about 17, 16 years old. And I happened to be in a relationship with a girl at the time. So you can imagine that was like, the biggest sin ever. And my first book was Go Tell it on a Mountain, which I found so incredibly profound, and it captured everything that I was feeling. But, of course, his writing was just so incredible, the way he got into the crevices of people's minds. I thought of my father. I made sure my father read that book. Then I read Giovanni's Room, and I was completely blown away. How could this man get into minds like this? It's just so profound, his writing. I mean, he's one of my favorite writers of all time. Completely changed my life reading these books. So I just wanted to share that.

B (21:06)

Jojo, thank you so much for calling Barry. At the Schomburg, there's these great images of him with his friends. There's also a letter that he wrote to Lorraine Hansberry. I'm gonna read a little bit of it. Took a picture. It says, my dear Lorraine, a very particular favor, but please don't do it if you don't want to. Some people can be read to and others can't, so I'll understand. But I'm finally really researching the end of this monstrous opus of mine. And he goes on to say, would you please read it? Did he worry about his writing?

D (21:39)

Absolutely. And that's certainly something that comes out in, you know, a lot of his correspondence with his closest friends and social circle. So Lorraine Hansberry, for example, the letter that you just read, he was asking for her feedback on another country, which he referred to as a grim interracial romance, I think. I think he called it that. But he really valued, you know, her thoughts and opinion as another black writer. So, you know, he often expressed, you know, like, a concern and an anxiousness. There's another letter that is on display in Jimmy where he's writing to his dear friend Maya Angelou. And it's a similar sentiment, you know, so he. You know, he and Maya Angelou were like brother and sister, you know. So in this two Page letter. He's, you know, pouring his heart out to Maya Angelou. He's telling her all the things that he's, you know, been working on simultaneously. I think he said he had just turned in the Devil Finds Work manuscript. He was waiting for his, you know, first and only children's book, Little Little Man. Little man, to be published. But he was just starting on Just Above My Head, which we now know to be his last novel. And in the letter, he talks about, like, how scared he was to even start, you know, like, this next project, which, you know, for me, you know, I thought to myself, I was like, this is incredible. I was like, this is James Baldwin. I was like, you know, like, he is just, you know, like, he is a brilliant genius to me. Like, how. How is he so, like, afraid and how is he anxious and nervous? But, I mean, you know, he was a person just like you and I, you know, so he certainly had those feelings sometimes of, you know, doubt, like, about his work and again, reaching out to his friends, his loved ones, that really gave him that encouragement and support that he needed, you know, to continue in his writing. So I think those, you know, instances, you know, in the correspondence, like, it's really wonderful to see that and to see the relationship between black writers. Like, I really love that.

B (23:53)

That was my conversation with Barry Brown and Charles Carter. Brown is the Schomburg Center's curator for manuscripts, archives and rare books, and curator of Jimmy God's Black Revolutionary Mouth. And Carter is the curator of James Baldwin Mountain to Fire at the main branch of the New York Public Library. Both exhibits commemorate this year's centennial of James Baldwin's birthday. Coming up, another ongoing exhibition commemorating a different New Yorker and civil rights advocate born 100 years ago, Shirley Chisholm. This is all of it. Stay with us.

A (24:37)

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because MultiCare has been here guided by a single purpose. Making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@ multicare.org A BetterHelp ad. Louis Capaldi partnered with BetterHelp to get word out about how important therapy can be.

I (25:16)

Or I struggle most weeks to, like, get up, get myself up and ready and go to therapy or whatever. Like, even like to open the laptop to talk to my therapist. Sometimes can be really difficult, but I do it because I realize how important it is for me to continue to feel good. I felt the best I felt in a long time through therapy.

A (25:34)

Learn more about online therapy@betterhelp.com.