Jess Walter Tackles Conspiracy Theories in 'So Far Gone'

Summary

All Of It: Episode Summary – Jess Walter Tackles Conspiracy Theories in 'So Far Gone'

Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Jess Walter, Award-Winning Author
Release Date: June 16, 2025

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Introduction to 'So Far Gone'

In this episode of ALL OF IT, host Alison Stewart welcomes acclaimed author Jess Walter to discuss his latest novel, So Far Gone. The book delves into contemporary politics and fractured personal relationships through the story of Reese Kinnick, a former reporter who retreats into seclusion after a heated altercation over conspiracy theories with his son-in-law.

Alison Stewart introduces the novel:

“Our main character is Reese Kinnick. He lives secluded in the middle of the woods. Like really secluded. No phone, no damn door plumbing. Kinnick is off the grid.” ([00:28])

Researching Conspiracy Theories

Jess Walter elaborates on his research process for portraying conspiracy theories authentically in the novel.

“Conspiracy thinking, which was on the fringe then in 1992, is really so much a part of the mainstream... We’ve reached a point where the fracturing of media has really made conspiracy thinking and conspiracy theories mainstream.” ([02:00])

He emphasizes the shift from fringe to widespread belief in conspiracies, citing examples like doubts about Barack Obama's birthplace and COVID-19 vaccine microchips.

The Allure of Conspiracy Theories

When asked why people gravitate towards conspiracy theories, Walter responds:

“They explain an inexplicable world by connecting things that really have no connection.” ([03:06])

He suggests that such theories provide simplistic explanations for complex personal and societal failures, leading characters like Reese and his son-in-law Shane down destructive paths.

Thematic Foundations: Thoreau's Influence

The novel opens with a Henry David Thoreau quote: "Not till we are lost, till we have lost the world, do we begin to find ourselves."

“It was a sort of thought experiment... What would happen if I took a character and just had him throw everything away.” ([04:06])

Walter uses this premise to explore themes of isolation, self-discovery, and the quest for reconciliation.

Structure and Character Development

The novel employs a unique chapter structure, each focusing on different characters’ perspectives:

“Each chapter is about what's happened to [character]. So, is Rhys so far gone? Is his son in law Shane, so far gone... Are Bethany's relationships so far gone?” ([05:34])

This format underscores the overarching question of whether individuals and society can redeem themselves from entrenched beliefs and behaviors.

Naming and Symbolism

The protagonist’s name, Reese Kinnick, was chosen for its hard consonant sounds, symbolizing pivotal moments of realization and change.

“The hard sounds in the name sort of represented for me that turning point, that sharpness that we find.” ([06:18])

Reading from 'So Far Gone'

Alison requests Jess Walter to read an excerpt from the novel, highlighting Reese's internal struggle and the complexities of his relationships with his grandchildren and friends. This passage illustrates Reese's grappling with loneliness and his attempts to reconnect.

“Rhys had confessed his love for Brian, Brian's wife... It was like he'd died if he didn't say something.” ([07:16])

The Role of Local Journalism

Walter underscores the critical importance of local journalism, both in the novel and real life.

“There’s a real crisis in local journalism... It’s such a valuable, important job. It’s such an important part of democracy.” ([11:27])

He laments the decline of local newsrooms and the rise of "news deserts," emphasizing how this loss contributes to societal fragmentation and the spread of misinformation.

Depiction of Far-Right Groups

The antagonist group in the novel, the Army of the Lord (AOL), embodies far-right conspiracy theorists. Walter injects humor into their portrayal while addressing serious themes.

“It cracked me up to imagine these tough guys... wondering if they've got mail.” ([14:10])

He explores how extremist groups misuse religion to propagate fear-based ideologies, linking their beliefs to broader historical and societal issues.

Incorporating COVID-19

So Far Gone spans from 2016 to the summer of 2024, integrating the COVID-19 pandemic to reflect its profound impact on society and personal lives.

“Writing about the pandemic... it was the first time we didn't have to look at our phone every day.” ([17:03])

Walter draws parallels between the enforced isolation during the pandemic and Reese’s self-imposed seclusion, highlighting themes of withdrawal and the necessity of re-engagement.

Setting the Pacific Northwest

The novel is deeply rooted in the Pacific Northwest, utilizing its unique geography and cultural landscape to enhance the story.

“Rhys has to cross the border into northern Idaho... and British Columbia, where he goes to the wildest music festival you've ever seen.” ([18:28])

Walter captures the region’s extremes, from remote compounds to off-grid communities, showcasing the diversity and tensions within the area.

Inspiration Behind 'So Far Gone'

Walter shares the personal and societal motivations behind writing the novel.

“I started feeling that dread... I needed to urge myself to come out of my metaphorical woods, to confront the world as it is.” ([19:40])

He aimed to create a narrative that balances humor and hope amidst the anxieties of modern life, reclaiming his "toxic optimism."

Conclusion and Upcoming Events

Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by informing listeners about Jess Walter's upcoming appearances at Symphony Space and the Center for Fiction in Brooklyn.

“Jess Walter will be at Symphony Space tonight and at the center for Fiction in Brooklyn tomorrow.” ([20:41])

Walter expresses his gratitude, and Alison thanks him for his insights.

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This episode of ALL OF IT offers a comprehensive exploration of Jess Walter’s So Far Gone, blending discussions on conspiracy theories, the decline of local journalism, personal redemption, and the societal impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, listeners gain a deep understanding of the novel’s themes and the real-world issues it mirrors.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Award winning author Jess Walter is back with a new novel that tackles present day politics and broken relationships. Our main character is Reese Kinnick. He lives secluded in the middle of the woods. Like really secluded. No phone, no damn door plumbing. Kinnick is off the grid. It started in 2016 when he got into a physical fight with his son in law over conspiracy theories. He decided he had enough. He chucked everything, including his reporting job and headed to some family land in Oregon. Flash forward to present day. Kinnick finds himself with his grandchildren right there on his front porch. They tell him that their mother is gone and they hand him a letter. Despite falling out with his daughter, he plans to look after the kids, or at least intends to. His son in law has other ideas, as do his white nationalist friends who show up. Kirk has said of so Far Gone. The characters are created with loving care, the plot reckless with glee. Jess Walters will be at Symphony Space tonight and at the center for Fiction in Brooklyn tomorrow. He joins me in studio right now. It's welcome. It's nice to see you.

[Jess Walter]

Thanks Alison. Nice to see you in person.

[Alison Stewart]

In person. A lot of people know this. For those who don't, you were one of the reporters who covered Ruby Ridge in 2002. You wrote a book about it. And in this story it's a dispute between Kinnick and his son in law Shane over Shane's nonstop discussion of conspiracy theories. How did you go about researching conspiracy theories, especially in the past eight years?

[Jess Walter]

I wish I didn't have to research them. I mean, but they're everywhere. Everywhere. And you mentioned Ruby Ridge, which I covered as a reporter. And one of the most surprising things to me is to see how conspiracy thinking, which was on the fringe then in 1992, is really so much a part of the mainstream. There's a moment where Rhys reconnects with an old girlfriend who happens to be a newspaper reporter and he says who's covering the radical right right now? And she says, the government reporter. I mean, it's stuff we talk about all the time. And a third of believe that Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States. A third of people believe that microchips were put in their body with the COVID vaccine. We've reached a point where the fracturing of media has really made conspiracy thinking and conspiracy theories mainstream. And so in some ways it was research, in some ways it was just opening the window and hearing what people are talking about.

[Alison Stewart]

Why do you think people are drawn to conspiracy theories?

[Jess Walter]

You know, because I have been covering this for 30 years. I think it explains looking for one thing that explains why we've failed as humans, as professionals, as husbands. You know, if you can blame it on those people or on this massive conspiracy, them, you know, Reese gets in, Rhys gets in a fight on Thanksgiving with his son in law because they're watching football. And he says, well, they're in on it too, you know, and it of course, being this broad conspiracy and that starts them down this path that, you know, that ends. And so, you know, it's small things, big things. We look to explain an inexplicable world by connecting things that really have no connection.

[Alison Stewart]

Before the story even starts in the book, there's a quote from Henry David Thoreau. Not till we are lost, till we have lost the world, do we begin to find ourselves. Yeah, why this quote?

[Jess Walter]

Part of it is, of course, Kinnick is, is, is living his inner Thoreau going out into the woods in a very hapless way. But I think it's also the journey that I took and the journey that the reader takes in the book, which is it really did start as a sort of thought experiment. There's a New Yorker cartoon I saw that had a car barreling down the highway and the sign ahead said, can't look away. And then there's an off ramp. Had enough? And I think we've all felt that way with the news, with this, this stream of bad, of dread really coming our way. And so that was the original question, was almost a, almost a thought experiment. What would happen if I took a character and just had him do that, throw everything away. And there's a little bit of wish fulfillment in imagining your smartphone flying out a car window, you know. And then, and from there though, I had to realize what it was that he would find. And he would find that alongside the political, we are also driven by the personal. And so the novel really evolved into what caused Rhys to be distanced from his family and to hopefully take those, you know, those first hopeful steps toward reconciliation and redemption.

[Alison Stewart]

He's living hermit like he was once a reporter. And the chapters are interesting because they, they all have sort of the same run up. It says what happened To Kinnick, next chapter is what happened to Bethany, his daughter. What happened to Shane, the son in law. How did that structure come to you?

[Jess Walter]

The structure is. I'm so glad you notice that because it's a huge part of the book because if you think of it, they're questions and they're statements. And so what I try to do in each chapter is show what happened to Kinnick. How did he get to this point where the solution for him was to disappear? But I also want to know what happens to him in that chapter. And the title, so Far Gone, I think works in the same way. It asks that question, is Rhys so far gone? Is his son in law Shane, so far gone along this conspiracy path that he can't come back? And Bethany's relationship so far gone? And then I think hovering over the top of it is a question we ask as Americans, are we so far gone that we can't find our way back?

[Alison Stewart]

How did you come to the name Reese Kinnick?

[Jess Walter]

Often it sounds for me, and I loved the sound of those two hard K's. And the very first image I had was this man who's been in the woods for seven years who looks outside and sees two kids on his porch, opens the door and and asks if they're selling magazines or chocolate bars for their school, and then realizes with horror that he hasn't recognized his own grandchildren. And the hard sounds in the name sort of represented for me that turning point, that sharpness that we find.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Jess Walter. He's in the studio with me to discuss his new novel, so Far Gone. It's the story of an estranged grandfather on the hunt to save his daughter and grandchildren from a far right Melissa group. I'm gonna ask you to read on page 44 through midway on 45. This is when he's got kids in the car and he's explaining how he got in trouble with some friends.

[Jess Walter]

Yeah, yeah, his. I wanted this to be a road trip novel, to be like, you know, that great wild fun that we get in a picaresque? So I had to bring friends in. And the first, the friend that he really turns to is Brian, who is his best friend until Rhys has confessed his love for Brian, Brian's wife. So this is Leah, his granddaughter, and Asher, his grandson, in the car with him. How do you know when it's really love? Leah asked, more quietly this time. Well, I'm not sure I know the answer to that at first. I guess it's just a feeling. Then you really want to be with that person. You think about them all the time. He thought of Lucy again. And maybe if it's the real thing, you start to want their happiness more than your own. Kinnick looked over at his granddaughter, wondering if this wasn't more than a passing concern of hers. It can be confusing, huh? Asher chimed in from the back seat. Mom says that alcohol makes people do funny things. Rhys laughed. It does. Loneliness does, too. He touched the back of his neck again, remembering the feeling of Joni's hands there. This was how he'd met her. She used to cut hair out of the shop next to their trailer, and it was Brian who suggested Reese go to my old lady for trims in the first place. And something about her floating above him, the feeling of her hands on his shoulders, fingers running through his hair. The care she took with him. Undoubtedly he'd confused haircuts with real intimacy, which he'd mostly forsaken when he moved up to the woods. And this was what he considered the low point of his life as a recluse, when he'd gotten so rusty at human interaction that he felt like he'd lost the ability to communicate. He'd pushed his loneliness aside and convinced himself he didn't need people. But of course, once he started thinking of Joni that way, it was as if he would die if he didn't say something. Add to those feelings two bottles of a flat, oaky red wine on Brian's old fishing boat, and he drunkenly convinced himself it was somehow a question of his integrity, and he'd chosen to tell Brian what he'd told Joni. Integrity? He said out loud and scoffed at himself. Leah glanced over again. Sorry, I keep thinking aloud. He drove them through the community of Tomtom, tracing the Spokane river upstream through the city. It was as if they were moving back in time, traveling the path Brian called the tiny tra, the tiny trail of tears. It was only 50 miles from Spokane's series of waterfalls, a fish vending machine in the centuries before the river was dammed and the salmon stopped coming up this far upstream to the remote place where Brian's tribe had been exiled in 1881, the Spokane Indian Reservation, a starkly beautiful, dry, forested, uranium rich, radon sick landscape almost 40 miles northwest of the farthest edge of Washington's second biggest city. Reese had first met Brian and Joni when he'd written a newspaper story about the cause. They'd taken up pressuring the U.S. department of Energy and the state Department of Ecology to clean up the old midnight mine, where 3 million tons of uranium had been scraped out of tenuous reservation ground, shipped 160 miles south to Hanford, enriched, refined, and used to test cold war atomic bombs on various islands and sea floors and in outer space. In 1981, exactly 100 years after the tribe had been relocated to this place, the Open Pit mine was played out and abandoned, its tailings left to leach into creeks and groundwater that laced the Spokane reservation. Riis had written stories about the toxic sludge and the open Pit, about the high rates of cancer and multiple sclerosis among people who lived near the mine. But proving causality in environmental diseases was nearly impossible. And as with much of his journalism career, Riis had accepted that the stories he'd written had changed nothing.

[Alison Stewart]

That's Jess Walter reading from his new book, so Far Gone. There's so much in those two pages. There's so much about the book, there's so much about the characters. There's so much about the way you describe them. I just have to say that out loud.

[Jess Walter]

Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

This is why I picked it. You give local journalism, you try to give local journalism a shout out in this book. Why was that important in telling this story?

[Jess Walter]

It's so important to me. You know, we talked about that fracturing of information. More than half of people now say that they get their news from social media. And they're not, of course, getting news, they're getting siloed information reinforcing what they already believe. And there's a real crisis in local journalism. And, you know, it's interesting, people say the media, and they're often talking about CNN or Fox or the New York Times, but most of us got our news from our neighbors, from people who got up and went to work at this job that, you know, that I did for seven years, which was to report what's happening at your school and at your council meeting and which roads are closed. And it's such a valuable, important job. It's such an important part of democracy. And to watch the Cris in newsroom, there are a third as many reporters. There are news deserts now where there's no local news whatsoever. And when we talk about the fraying fabric of society, we think in this global term, but locally, in these small places where we used to be connected by the work that reporters did, I think in some ways that's the most tragic thing. And for a character like Rhys, how do you disconnect that from your very identity? This was what he devoted his life to. And now his job has been taken and his paper has Shrunk. And like so many, I think he feels displaced that way too.

[Alison Stewart]

It also is how you talked to other people.

[Jess Walter]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alison Stewart]

It's also how you don't get far right groups that sort of bubble up because there's been this misinformation.

[Jess Walter]

Right. And think of the common place a newspaper runs, a graduation section. They don't identify kids by whose parents are red or blue or progressive or conservative or maga or antifa. They're just people, you know? And I think so. I. I do think it's an important part of this novel. In part because of who Rhys is. And being a former journalist, it's also my favorite group of people. I used to call them the world's brightest B students. They're just a great reporters, are such a great group of people. And so I wanted to embody Rhys with some of those qualities.

[Alison Stewart]

The story revolves around Brian and his friends trying to get the kids back from Rhys. Who's taken them? We'll find out why. And you gave the right wing conspiracy theorist group the army of the Lord or aol?

[Jess Walter]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Coincidence.

[Jess Walter]

Well, you know, a lot of times something will just make me smile. And it's funny to write about these serious things, but to lace it with humor, which is funny, which is how I write everything is through a lens of humor, but not jokey. But it's just sort of the way I see the world. The folly of humans. We're also connected there. We're also connected in how we get things wrong. And it cracked me up to imagine these tough guys as one police officer describes them with their semi autos, Baby Bjorn to their chest, not realizing that by choosing the initials aol that people are gonna hear the bonging and wonder if they've got mail.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, I would love to see you and Carl Hiasson over a cup of tea. I think of a similar sensibilities about Florida, yours about the Pacific Northwest.

[Jess Walter]

Yeah, I think we are operating on different territory, but similar vibes.

[Alison Stewart]

Certainly one of the things about this far right, this militia group, this Bible bumping group, is that the carriage will read passages out of the Bible aloud. What did this help reveal to us to the listener about religion? About the way that they use the Bible?

[Jess Walter]

Yeah. I want to make clear there are other religious characters in the book. There's an Episcopal wannabe priest who used to be a Gold Gloves boxer. There are some Unitarians. I'm not really writing about religion here, except in the way that I think it's been co opted to explain a whole Bunch of beliefs that, given my understanding of Christianity, are sort of on the opposite end of the spectrum from where certainly Jesus would have been. But I think the group's religion is really fear based. It's really this idea that we're living in the end times. And that's what I, going back to Ruby Ridge, that's what I kept finding was how many of these people who believe these really dark, terrifying things that act in such terrifying and often violent ways are acting out of a sense of desperation that comes in part from, you know, these extreme religious beliefs being connected with, again, conspiracies and radical right thought. And it just makes for a soup that has, you know, spoiled various parts of American history going back decades and so far gone.

[Alison Stewart]

It takes place up until the present and includes COVID 19 as well. Why did you decide to cover COVID 19 in your book? We've dealt with so many authors. Some people have just ignored it and move past it. Some people have set their books 10 years ago. You're sort of right in the middle, you know.

[Jess Walter]

Yeah. The book essentially tracks from 2016 to through the summer of 2024. And so I really, maybe it's my journalism training, but for me, you write about the time you live in. None of us, you know, none of us can look at the world that we're in now and not feel some impact from these larger things. And so writing about the pandemic, for instance, that's also a period when we all were a little bit reclusive. Like Rhys, we were forced into that. And so I wanted to draw that parallel between the time when we had to withdraw from society and there were parts of that that, you know, it was a horrific, terrifying time, tragic with so many people dying. But for a lot of us, it was also the first time we didn't have to look at our phone every day and answer our emails all the time. And so it was just a way to sort of, you know, draw that in to the decision that Rhys makes. And again, we had to come out of that and he has to come out of his own. His own exile in the woods.

[Alison Stewart]

It takes place in the Pacific Northwest. What are some of the specific details about life in that part of the country that you wanted to include in the story and you wanted us to understand about that part of the world?

[Jess Walter]

Yeah, you know, I was really. I'm such a fan of Charles Portis, who wrote True Grit and Dog of the south. And in his Road Trip novels they intentionally move through the south. And I wanted to move through my, you know, I'm not a Southern writer. I come from a very different tradition. And the Northwest does have these borders you cross. And so, you know, Rhys has to cross the border into northern Idaho to visit the Rampart, which is the compound where the army of the Lords trains and runs around practicing. And then he also had to cross the border into British Columbia, where he goes to the wildest music festival you've ever seen. And part of it was just to show those extremes of society, but also to really give a flavor for the Northwest. It's funny. There's a place, there are places where the far right swings out so far that it bumps into the far left. And that tends to be at a barter fair somewhere along the Canadian border where everybody's living off the grid, preparing for the end times, but for entirely different reasons.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the seed of this novel?

[Jess Walter]

You know, the seed was really this period of 2324. I was working on a very different book, and I started feeling that dread. I couldn't look away from the news coming in over my phone, and I desperately wanted to turn away from it. At the same time, I found myself, especially after the 2024 election, turning away. I couldn't look at it. And I realized I had gone into a sort of metaphoric woods. I was hiding from the bad news, and I didn't want the pain of being involved again and being disappointed. And at some point, I think I needed to urge myself to come out of my metaphoric woods, to confront the world as it is and to go back to, as my so calls it, the toxic optimist who tries to make things better. And so it was sort of reclaiming my toxic optimism by writing a comic, hopeful novel with the ingredients of everything that's giving us anxiety.

[Alison Stewart]

Jess Walter will be at Symphony Space tonight and at the center for Fiction in Brooklyn tomorrow. The name of the book is so far gone. Thanks for joining us, Jess.

[Jess Walter]

Thanks, Alison.

[Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you, and I will meet you back here next time.

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