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All Of It with Alison Stewart
Jonathan Van Ness, AKA, Professor Van Nasty's 'Sex Education for Adults'
00:27:29
Jonathan Van Ness pledges to provide sex ed to adults in their first standup comedy special, "Fun & Slutty."
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- [00:11]
A
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Today's show is curated by our producer, Zach Godera Cohen, featuring some of their favorite interviews from the past year. Now we'll get into my conversation with Jonathan Van Ness about their new comedy special called Fun and Slutty. Zach, what was memorable about this conversation?
- [00:34]
B
Oh, my God.
- [00:35]
C
What wasn't memorable? Jonathan is just a treasure.
- [00:39]
A
He's a good interview. He's a smart guy and he's a good interview.
- [00:42]
C
Yeah, and fun. And I was looking at the transcript. I haven't listened back yet, but you can see in the transcript that they were fun. And my memory of this is just being super anxious about having to hit the dump button.
- [00:55]
B
It's so funny, right?
- [00:57]
C
Because it was a really, like. You watched the special?
- [00:58]
A
Oh, it's a little raunchy.
- [01:00]
C
It's so raunchy. Which, like, it's raunchy. It's billed as a sex ed for adults. And I really believe strongly that the stuff that society wants us to talk in euphemism about, that's the stuff that we should be more blunt about. And this raunchy special that Jonathan put on was exactly that. It, like, hit that button for me. And, of course, we on public radio have to be a little bit more careful than you have to be in a comedy special. And so sort of bridging that gap and balancing that line between that openness and honesty and bluntness about sex and romance and love and everything. And also, you know, being aware that we're on public radio. So we steered clear of all of the curses and anything gross and, you know, but that doesn't mean that, you know, behind the scenes, Juliana the engineer and I weren't like the whole time, so.
- [01:55]
A
Well, what was special to you about this special?
- [01:58]
C
I had watched Jonathan through Queer Eye. That's how I got to know their Persona. And that's a very sort of glossy, glittery show with a lot of post production and all that. And in a comedy special, you just see sort of this person on stage. It's like raw. Er, sorry, it's more raw. It's a little messier.
- [02:20]
A
You say raw.
- [02:21]
C
Er, rawr, rawr, rawr. And to see a personal fave in a new light is just really special. And then there was also a part of the special that I felt really seen by, which is when Jonathan is talking about finding attractive politicians who are trying to take away their rights as a trans person. And sort of the irony of that and the messiness of desire. And it doesn't always map as, you know, who you're attracted to and who's a good person. Right. And sort of leaning into that desire or that that messiness was an interesting thing about the special.
- [02:57]
A
All right, here's my conversation with Jonathan Van Ness about their special fun and slutty. Jonathan Van Ness is in studio now. Thank you for coming in on this cold day.
- [03:14]
B
Thank you so much for having me. Honey, we got to keep it warm.
- [03:18]
A
You say the people push back against the word slutty. Why did you want to center around that word and the idea behind it?
- [03:27]
B
Well, I think that so much of the sex, the negative views that we have around sex are really steep, based in misogyny, based in this, like, this opposition to, like, women having power, control over their bodies, genderqueer people having power and control over their bodies. And so I just thought, how can I let people know that I can use that? How can I let people know? Yeah, how can I let people know that you can. That slutty doesn't have to only mean one thing. And it doesn't. I mean, it can speak to sexual freedom, but it also can speak to just, like, really loving something passionately, whether that's sexual or not. So I thought that's something really important that women should know because they don't need to be afraid of owning their love of things.
- [04:14]
A
It's so funny because it started on your Instagram. I follow you on Instagram, and these funny little, I don't know, videos would show up. Would you explain to people the background of slutty?
- [04:25]
B
Yeah, I just this one day, I was in my house, and this is actually part of the origin story of the special, which I talk about in the special. I was minding my own business, and much like Goldie Hawn, I get my best. Goldie Hawn's character in First Wives Club. I get my best ideas after having done cardio. So I just finished up a little workout and I went into the mirror. And I don't know if it was the holy spirit or Mother Nature or my mental health, but it just said, get the phone and go to the mirror. And next thing I knew, I said, you're a hot slut. And that's how my, like, affirmation Mondays were kind of born. And I think that's where I really realized how many people had a really negative view and idea of just the word, the word slut.
- [05:04]
A
So you sort of mentioned tongue in cheek that slutty is. Because we don't haven't had good sex yet, basically. So what kind of teachable moments did you want to present to us out of the word slutty?
- [05:18]
B
I mean, I think really so much that it, that we are allowed to be passionate about so many different things and we can be multifaceted people and most importantly that like, you don't have to change yourself to be loved by other people. So I think that's really what I, what I want people to know and, and just the rigidity around with which we, we view gender, the way we view our ability to express our gender. I really wanted people to sit with that a little bit. I, we go in there pretty hard in the special, so I think that's, that's. And I also, I think we need more comedians. I just, I, I speak so often about how much I look up to Margaret Cho, Nikki Glaser, Nikki Laser, more, you know, contemporarily, but like Lisa Lampanelli, Wanda Sykes, like people I grew up watching and loving so much. But I don, I don't ever remember seeing someone necessarily like me speak to sex or speak to living with HIV or living or just, you know, being in the world the way that I have. So I hope that I can be a possibility model for other people that have never seen themselves and be like, oh my gosh, I can, I can do that.
- [06:26]
A
It was filmed as part of a 2023 tour of this show. What part do you think have really held up from your 2023 show and what, you know, what you thought? No, that's not necessarily going to go in this show.
- [06:38]
B
There was a few things that hit the editing room floor. But I think I, if anything, I was really thinking this morning after what, you know, President Trump and Vice President Vance doesn't feel better coming out of my mouth now, you know, saying that, you know, defining biological sex is like man and woman, when we know that up to 2% of people. And I just did the math this morning, so I was curious. That's 3.3 million people. Or wait, no, it's 3.6. It's a, it's or six point something, whatever. I'm not a mathematician, I'm a hairdresser. But the point is 2% of 330 million people is a lot. And that's how many millions of people are living with a myriad of intersex conditions. Like my friend Alicia Roth Weigel, who I was just texting with on the way over here. I put her, I was talking about her on my Insta stories yesterday. But even biologically there's not two sexes. There are a large amount of people who live within the spectrum of a biological sex, let alone gender expression, which it just seems that some folks will not wrap them their head around. That's two different things. Yeah, we're not trying to, like, put those in the same breath. They're biological sex, of course, one thing. And then gender expression is a different thing. So sex and gender aren't the same thing, which is okay. But I think we're gonna have to dig deep for the patients in the next four years. And I think that comedy is a really important tool for us to, like, exercise our patience and our freedom of expression. So I shall be utilizing that tool a lot in the next four years.
- [08:04]
A
What did you learn from touring with this show that audiences are willing to accept? And then maybe, maybe they won't accept it, but it takes them longer to get there.
- [08:18]
B
I did a bit in the show where I and I talk about it in this special. Just like Christian absolutism, Christian nationalism, that part I can definitely feel people squirm when all of a sudden, like, I'm referring to myself as like a. You know, I'm like, as someone who looks like a 17th century Italian Jesus, I can just say that he would not like how you guys are acting. And when I start to, like, kind of poke a little bit of fun, like some Christian ideals, then it's like, I definitely see some squirms. But I think that it's important for people to like, have a mirror reflected to them. Cause I grew up in the church. I grew up, like, acolyting every Sunday. I went to like a Christian sports camp for like two weeks every summer, honey, if you can believe. And so I think I have a really interesting perspective. Having come where I came from and then going to where I am now. I do think that I have an interesting perspective that resonates with so many people.
- [09:14]
A
And people should read about that in your biography.
- [09:16]
B
Yes, honey, over the top. Available at all bookstores.
- [09:18]
A
Now we're talking with Jonathan Van Ness about their new special, Fun and a Shame Free hour of confessional comedy and sex education. You did not get at school, so you put on your hat. Professor Jonathan Van Nasty, can you share one of your rules for the class about shame?
- [09:40]
B
Well, the one you can test.
- [09:42]
A
The one you can talk about.
- [09:43]
B
Exactly. No, exactly. I mean, I think the thing about shame is, is according to my therapist, it's like if someone knew this thing about me, then they wouldn't love me anymore. That's what Shame is. And we all have shame about. Everyone can have shame about so many different things. And I think that knowing that makes it so much easier to live that, because no one is shame free. And I think that the sooner that we can learn to, like, accept, forgive, and love ourselves through whatever the shame that we have, the more fully we can, like, enjoy this, like, very finite time that we get to have in the world. And I just think shame holds us back from so many different things, and I think that's a really universal experience. But, honey, I don't want to have that shame holding me back anymore.
- [10:29]
A
I have to ask this. You are in this fabulous dress. It's spangly, it's sparkly, and you are wearing high heels. Why do you like performing in heels? I made them all go away. That was my 2025 resolution. I'm done with heels. And I'm like, they are wearing heels through this entire special.
- [10:48]
B
Well, okay, look. So I do prefer a chunkier heel. That was, like, a very unforgiving stiletto.
- [10:53]
A
But it really was.
- [10:54]
B
But look, I'm not mother Nature, but I do appreciate. I mean, that dress and that shoe, the color story, for me, those weren't made by the same company. This was like a Bottega shoe with a sta Dress. And they. But the color. They were just talking to each other. That aquamarine. Addison Rae, honey, she's having her moment. Give me that aquamarine. I just. I was obsessed. Need it. Must have it. And I just. I love. I loved that look. Thanks for noticing, btw. But, yeah, you know what? Also, too, not to name drop, but I will just say this. When I got to interview and, like, spend time with Nancy Pelosi, Speaker Emera. Emer. How do I say her new title? Emmer. Emmer. Emer. Whatever. Speaker Pelosi. I love her fierce title. She very famously, in the Capitol, only wore heels. I was wearing these heels in 2018, where I thought my. Like, I thought I was, like, trailing, like, a line of blood behind me in, like, the Capitol. And so I was like, if Speaker Pelosi can do this in heels all day, every day, and just do what she has done in heels, I'm not gonna complain about heels. So I just. But then also, I can hear the showrunner of Queer Eyes voice in my head being like, oh, really? Cause she's seen me crawl off minia carpet. The second I get past, like, the press, like. Like, the little pictures, I'm like, oh, my God, my bunions. I feel them, like, pounding in my, like, third eye. Like, my temple.
- [12:13]
A
I thought that you dropped it. Like, it's hot in those heels.
- [12:15]
B
On.
- [12:16]
A
It was amazing.
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B
I did. I'm a very acrobatic person. You know, I don't open my show at gymnastics anymore, but I still do some acrobatic moments in heels.
- [12:24]
A
You warm up the crowd with a bit of confessional, like, tell us your interesting story. Did people initially, initially talk to you about their stories or did you ever really have to draw them out?
- [12:36]
B
It really depended on the place. But I have to say, not that you asked, but I'm going to. I'll say this. Belfast, North Ireland, of every place I ever went, had the most amazing responses and just really, really brought it. And I just think European crowds really, really brought the. Really brought the heat in a way that talk about lacking shame. It was amazing. We were really. Oh, also, though. Portland, Oregon, now that I think about it. Portland, Oregon. I actually just got chills on my triceps and my thighs from thinking about this one answer that we got over there in Portland, Oregon. But it was amazing. If you were there, you will remember. And if you're listening to this right now from Portland, Oregon, you'll be like, wow. Yeah, I remember that.
- [13:24]
A
I remember that.
- [13:25]
B
Think about it.
- [13:25]
A
Once a week, you filmed this in Austin, Texas. Austin is often this little blue spot in this big red state of Texas. How important was it to shoot it in Austin?
- [13:36]
C
Well, it was really.
- [13:38]
B
I lived there. Yeah. I've lived there for almost five years. I went there for Queer Eye season six, and then I never left. It was really important. I feel like an adopted, like, adult child of Austin. Like, it really feels like kind of it's where I made my home for the last five years. And I also think that considering that the state legislators made a really, you know, intense point of trying to prevent people from performing in dresses on stage, I was like, honey, let me do this here. But, yeah, I think it was important. I love Austin. I also love emos and the people in Austin. And I also just think, you know, not to make everything political, but it's hard. This election that we just had, it had turnout that was around 2016 numbers. It wasn't that this mandate was the biggest mandate that anybody's ever had, but I just think that queer people in rural spaces, queer people in red states so often get forgot about and looked over and not seen and not celebrated. I really think about that when I'm touring. I try to go to different places. I try to get people in because queer people and rural in red States are like, they are like some of the most amazing people doing the most and they deserve to be entertained, honey.
- [14:47]
A
And you are also very much saying I'm a patriot in this show. What made you stand in your high heels and say I'm a patriot?
- [14:56]
B
Well, I've been thinking about this idea so much lately, and I don't necessarily say this in the special, but I've been thinking about a lot and writing about a lot, which is I think, you know, traditionally when you think about masculinity, it's like, it's bravery. It's this ability to like stand for what you believe in. It's this, you know, ability to be very strong. The strength of my ankles and those heels is much larger than I think. I don't think I walked down the street in a little town called Hannibal, Missouri, at 16 years old in heels, a mini red dress and a scarf tied around my head. Cause I didn't have like long hair. And I really wanted to give you that like long haired fantasy. And I got chased out of the street, like back into this minivan that I had like taken with my grandma's. Like get to Hannibal to a place where I could like walked out or I thought I down the street. And the bravery that that took is the bravery that it takes me anytime to wear my, to wear what I wear, be who I am. Whether that's on a red carpet, whether that's on a stage. Like genderqueer people, trans people, non binary people, we are subjected to violence at a rate that's much higher than other people. And I think especially living in a place like Texas, I, when I go to a place, when I dress how I want to dress, I look for the exits.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah.
- [16:04]
B
I don't walk into a place and I know. I just think a lot of people don't necessarily. A lot of people have different experiences that may lead them to have that reaction to being in like a large group. But I think that gender queer people and trans people, non binary people, we all have that experience in a different way than other people do. So I think it's really important for us to take up space, speak our truth, do it, do it where we're going to do it. And I forgot what your original question was.
- [16:28]
A
Why do you consider yourself a patriot?
- [16:31]
B
Oh, yeah, that's very brave. That's very brave. I think it's very brave. And I think it's the way that we take up space I think is more traditionally masculine on the inside. The bravery or resilience which are Qualities that are much more associated, I think, with masculinity than we think about them as femininity.
- [16:46]
A
Let's talk about that masculinity part, because you bring this up in the special that you are able to compartmentalize, especially when it comes to sex or to attractiveness. And it's sort of a funny point in the show, but you say there are certain Republican legislators that you find attractive. Josh Hawley, Dan Crenshaw.
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B
Oh.
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A
Why did you want that sentiment, that sense that you could split the difference?
- [17:14]
B
Well, I'm not used to talking about this when the sun's awake or, like, when the sun's up. Who says that sun's awake? Usually when I do that joke, it's, you know, it's nighttime. The people have been.
- [17:25]
A
Did we turn the lights down?
- [17:26]
B
It makes more sense at night. Yeah, it makes more sense at nighttime. It's worse during the day. Yeah. I mean, I think. I don't know. I come from a cornfield. Like, I just, you know, it was Slim Pickens where I come from. So, like, if you. You weren't gonna have crushes on, like, the Republicans, who were you gonna have crushes on? So I just, you know. But I do have. I. I say it in the special. It's like the last vestige of the patriarchy is my uncanny ability to completely separate someone's personality from their physical form. And so, yes, I think Josh Hawley's Adam's apple is. I like it. And, yeah, Mitt Romney stole my heart in 2002 at the Salt Lake Games. Never gave it back. I have always thought he was cute. It's gotten me in trouble in Twitter several times. I don't know.
- [18:10]
A
It just is.
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B
It just. I can't help it. It is what it is.
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A
It just. It just is. Yeah, that's okay.
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B
Yeah.
- [18:17]
A
We'll have more in a minute with Queer Eyes Jonathan Van Ness about their comedy special Fun and Slutty. Stick around. Welcome back to all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Let's get back into my conversation with Queer Eyes, Jonathan Van Ness, who joined us to talk about their new comedy special Fun and Slutty. In the special, Jonathan talks about how they realized how much social media algorithms were influencing the way that they thought about the world. I asked them to talk about when they started to realize that was happening.
- [18:58]
B
You know, I think I wrote this joke, and I was doing this joke over the last, like, year and a half. Like, as I did this a lot in 20, I think I started Fun and Slutty. In, like, the end of 2022 or the beginning of 2023. And I toured it all the way through, like, October, November of last year. Like, I was, wow, you really work. Yeah, I did a long time. And I'm about to go on my next hour, which is Hot and Healed tour, which I'm so excited about this. This new work is like, I've really been processing my anger in healthy ways, but. But I think that. That my ADHD is rampant today. You have to tell me again.
- [19:38]
A
I was asking about when you started realizing the algorithm was maybe affecting you.
- [19:43]
B
When I was, like, spending. When I really got into TikTok and I was like, where did two and a half hours go?
- [19:49]
A
Scary, isn't it?
- [19:50]
B
Yeah. I mean, I really think the TikTok algorithm knows me better than I know myself. My husband will do this thing where, like, I'll be on TikTok and he'll come up to me and be like, our dog just turned into a dragon and flew out of the suitcase. And they'll be like, mm, yeah, I'll be up in three minutes. Like, the chicken sounds amazing. And he's like, you're not here with me. Like, what's going on? Like, talk to me. So, yeah, it really can pull your.
- [20:12]
A
Attention, but there's something about it that draws you in. What do you think it is that it draws you in? Is it sort of confirm. Is it confirming what you already think? Is it? I'm curious what you think it is.
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B
I think it's like, well, my hypothesis in the special. Well, I don't want to give away too many spoilers, you guys, but I'll just say this. If the algorithm is always watching, so if you finish that type of content and you don't go off of it, it's going to show you more content like that. If you don't engage with that content for very long, and it knows that, like, you don't like that, it's not going to show you more stuff like that. Because the algorithm's whole deal is to keep you there as long as possible. Whether it's Instagram algorithm or, you know, TikTok, wherever. Like, they want to keep you on that app as long as possible. So that's everything. The way that it's engineered, the way that I understand it. Don't cover me. Mark, I love your new chain and everything, you know, like to, you know, not. I mean, I love your new chain. This is the radio, you know, I do. But, yeah, I just think the algorithms really. I don't not to sound QAnon, but I do think that this is the case because their money is in their average. It's. How long can you be on these apps?
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A
What has it shown you that you didn't really realize about yourself?
- [21:20]
B
I'm really afraid of animals getting eaten by other animals.
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A
Oh, no.
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B
Yeah, that's like, my algorithm is really showing. It's like giving me, like, Discovery Channel vibes.
- [21:29]
A
Like, means you've watched something you're not.
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B
Like, I don't want to see any. Are they gonna get away?
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A
Did you watch it all the way?
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B
I just want the zebra to be okay. I want the zebra to get away.
- [21:38]
A
But you know that.
- [21:39]
B
And it's similar with hair color, you guys. Like, sometimes I see some real travesties with hair color that feels like Discovery Channel. Like, I just like these. The. You know, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, what's happening over there? It's a lot of beauty. It's a lot of, like, animal stuff recently on my tick tock algorithm, you guys, now that it's come back, okay, this, like, this is a lot, but it's. There's no cussing involved.
- [22:00]
A
Okay.
- [22:00]
B
It's this, like, Spanish speaking, like, ear health lab where all they're doing is like these deep ear flushes. Like, I don't know where, but they're. Everyone's speaking Spanish and just like, the stuff coming out of these people's ears is so next level. So last night it was that. And then the next video was like this tutorial by Makayla Nagira about how to do some makeup application. I was just like, wow, my algorithm is giving you external beauty, internal earwax, health. I just don't even know what the matter is.
- [22:28]
A
I'm trying to figure out what's the thing.
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B
I don't know.
- [22:33]
A
I don't know.
- [22:33]
B
I've been trying to figure it out for 37 years.
- [22:38]
A
I did want to talk about in the show, and you've talked about it personally, is you talk about rehab, which I didn't see coming. It came out and got me in the show. It's like, we're going, we're going, we're going, whoa, he's really going deep into your rehab life. Why was that important that you wanted to include that in this show, which is really funny and really sexy. And then this sort of deep part about rehab.
- [23:04]
B
Well, I just think that story's so funny.
- [23:07]
A
You think it's funny?
- [23:08]
B
Well, kind of. The. I mean, how many people, like, have to go to, like, a Blindfolded rope maze in the middle of Tennessee.
- [23:16]
A
That's true.
- [23:16]
B
I mean, let's talk about spoilers. Like, you gotta. You gotta see what happens. No, I think that. Look, I think. I don't know why I always turn into a politician when I talk about rehab. Looks funny. I think rehab, and I think rehab is a really universal thing that I went through. And I also think that one thing that I talk about so much in the special is asking for help. Yes. And I think both in the salon and in rehab are, like, two places in my life where I've, like, really learned, like, how to ask for help. And I think without both. That's interesting. Like, you know, therapeutic environments like rehab and the relationship that I have with my therapist, who, like, without, I would not be where I am, and without the salon, like, I would not have made it. Like, I wouldn't have made it through any of the stuff that I've been through. And it was really the community of both of those spaces. Um, I mean, there's a few people from both of my rehabs who I still talk to that have been some of the most important people to me in my life. So I just think I get. I got so much health and. And just so much healing out of it. And so I think that's kind of why I like to talk about it. And also, the story really is just hilarious.
- [24:21]
A
Why didn't you ask for help before?
- [24:24]
B
Because I think we're taught to never ask for. Especially, like, in. At least in the Midwest, it's like, don't ask for help. Don't stick out. Like, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, get it together, and just don't nuisance. And I think asking for help always made me feel like. Like I was weak or like I shouldn't need to ask for help in the first place.
- [24:45]
A
You also talk about HIV in the show. Why do you think it's important for HIV in particular to find. You find humor in it? Why is it important to find humor in something that's serious?
- [25:02]
B
Well, I think part of stigma. I think stigma and shame are very closely related.
- [25:07]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [25:08]
B
And I think that shame thrives in secret and in darkness and, like, what can't be exposed to light? Like, you can't, like, heal through it. So I think that's, like, one aspect of it. Like, you got to expose everything to light. It's so. Because. Because also, I mean, as scared as I was of HIV and I'm not like. I mean, it's not amazing, but I also Like, I take a pill once a day. I feel amazing. I've never been cuter. The life expectancy of someone who's been diagnosed with HIV, and this was 2012 is 50 to 75 years. It's not a terminal illness. This is like a chronic disease that was, you know, very scary one that we've made so much progress on. But we need to keep talking about it. I think another thing that we need to keep talking about is the Supreme Court literally just took up a case that allows this like Texas employer that like doesn't want to provide PREP to their employees through the Affordable Care act because they think that providing prep promotes homosexual behavior. And what I'm so scared for these Christians to know, I don't know if they know this in Texas, but bisexual people exist and women, heterosexual women have also enjoyed the benefits of access to prep. Like new HIV admit. New HIV infections have gone down so much because of prep. And limiting access to it is a literal threat to public health. And there's no reason that like, it's just, it's just so crazy. And I just, I just hope women know that this is happening. And HIV doesn't care if you're straight, it doesn't care if you're gay. Gay. It doesn't care your gender. It doesn't give a. It doesn't care about. Yeah, thank you so much. Oh, did I just say it? Oh, I almost said you could feel it coming. I almost said the S word, you guys. I'm so glad I didn't. But so. Oh my God. Thank God. But yeah, it doesn't care. And so we, we just, I want everyone to know that because I just, I'm really passionate about HIV prevention and HIV awareness. And so yeah, that was my conversation.
- [26:55]
A
With Jonathan Van Ness about their special Fun and Slutty, which you can watch on the streaming platform Veeps. Coming up, a listening party with the late Zakir Hussain, a globally recognized four time Grammy winning percussionist who spent his career bringing the sounds of Indian classical drumming into conversation with jazz, rock and other musical traditions from around the world. For 140 years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org when too much work bogs.
- [27:47]
D
You down, asana helps you handle it. That's because asana is where humans and AI coordinate work together. AI makes it easy to hand off routine tasks, streamline workflows and keep everyone focused on the work that matters most. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us at asana.
- [28:10]
B
Com.
- [28:12]
D
That's Asana. Com.