Kassa Overall's 'Animals' (Listening Party)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Kassa Overall's 'Animals' (Listening Party)

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Air Date: January 8, 2024

---

Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It features an in-depth conversation with Kassa Overall, a boundary-pushing drummer, producer, and rapper, about his latest album, Animals. The discussion centers on Kassa's creative process, mental health, and the unique blend of jazz and hip-hop that defines his work. Alison Stewart guides the conversation with thoughtful prompts, while Kassa offers honest, personal reflections on music as therapy, collaboration, and evolving as an artist.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kassa’s Artistic Journey & Commitment

• Finding the Confidence to Go Solo (03:37):
  Kassa recounts his years as a gigging musician before releasing his solo debut around age 35. A turning point came when his partner, Lauren DeGraff, challenged him to fully commit:

  "She was like, yo, you put all this time and energy into this album and you're gonna run around playing in everybody else's band all year? Like, if you're gonna do this, you have to, like, commit to it and say no and be broke and just start from scratch.” (04:31, Kassa Overall)

• Persistence Through Setbacks (05:08):
  The pandemic struck just as Kassa’s previous album was gaining momentum. Kassa reflects on honoring the artistic process:

  “If you try to make something good, you try to make something that's better than your last thing—it's done when it's done, and you have to honor that process.” (05:56, Kassa Overall)

Songwriting & Emotional Readiness

• Knowing When a Song Is Ready (06:38):
  Kassa describes balancing older song ideas and new material, choosing tracks emotionally resonant enough to fit the album's narrative.

  “When I'm listening to the music and I'm almost finished with it, and it makes me emotional to listen to it, that's how I know it's time.” (07:13, Kassa Overall)

Exploring Mental Health Themes

• The Meaning of "It's Animals" Skit (08:37):
  The skit "It's Animals" symbolizes the intersection of mental health struggles and institutional responses:

  “It represents...the overlap between people having mental conditions but also being treated just as...normal people...You can't necessarily judge everybody's actions in terms of what a sane person would do.” (08:56, Kassa Overall)

• Music as Therapy (11:20):
  On “Make My Way Back Home,” Kassa raps, “Now the music is my therapist, we talk it out every night in the booth.” Elaborating, he shares:

  “I used music as a means to wash off the world...Practicing is a way for me to cleanse out whatever I'm going through.” (12:26, Kassa Overall) “Those moments [in music] affirmed my existence and my journey and my path.” (12:04, Kassa Overall)

Collaboration & Creation

• Choosing Collaborators (14:45):
  Kassa explains his intuitive process for involving friends and admired artists:

  “Even though I can do it all...I can't do it all emotionally...It's a different vibe that a different person is going to bring.” (15:10, Kassa Overall)

• The Unique Making of "Going Up" (17:05):
  Kassa recounts piecing together the song after losing the full session to a broken hard drive, co-writing with Francis and the Lights, and featuring Ishmael Butler and Lil B.

  “...I know this is a strong song, but I can't figure out lyrically what to do...I got help.” (17:57, Kassa Overall) “I dropped it down this flight of stairs.” (18:43, Kassa Overall, on the hard drive mishap)

The "Backpack Producer" Approach

• On Recording Anywhere (20:55):
  Kassa describes his mobility and preference for recording with others in their space, coining the term:

  “I would put all my gear in a backpack...I go to people's houses...there's something about being in person that you can't really recreate.” (21:19, Kassa Overall)

Paying Homage & Musical References

• “No, it ain't” and Homage to Classic Songs (22:50):
  Kassa confirms the intentional musical nod to “You're All I Need to Get By” and describes the layered trombone arrangements.

  “That's a straight tip of the hat. Yeah, for sure.” (22:54, Kassa Overall)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Criticism and Artistic Acceptance

  “I've read some things that made me definitely go like, wow. I guess they're entitled to their own opinion, but maybe they also didn't listen that closely.”
  (08:04, Kassa Overall)

• Celebrating Collaboration

  “It's just an honor to have artists...that I look up to, to kind of validate what I'm doing.”
  (16:30, Kassa Overall)

• On Loss and Transformation

  “Yeah, you wouldn't have this song if that didn't happen.”
  (19:07, Alison Stewart, on the hard drive mishap and resulting song)

---

Music Listening Highlights (Key Timestamps)

• "So Happy" — 02:22
• “It’s Animals” skit — 10:19
• “Make My Way Back Home” (ft. Nick Hakim) — 13:20
• “Going Up” (ft. Ishmael Butler, Lil B, Francis and the Lights) — 19:17
• “No, it ain’t” — 23:45

---

Conclusion

This episode offers listeners a compelling portrait of Kassa Overall as an artist and thinker—charting his journey through setbacks, creative breakthroughs, and mental health advocacy. The conversation is practical and philosophical, with candid anecdotes and musical excerpts enriching the discussion. Whether debating the value of persistence, honoring collaboration, or unpacking the healing power of music, Kassa and Alison Stewart deliver an inspiring and grounded exploration of artistry in contemporary culture.

---

For the full music experience, check out the tracks referenced above on Kassa Overall’s album 'Animals.'

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With Wix you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI, get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing, or work like a 10 person team even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done, you just need Wix. Try it out for [e-mail] NetCredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other.

[Casa Overall]

Lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day.

[Commercial Narrator]

If approved, applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by Netcredit Applications subject to review and approval. Learn [e-mail] partners netcredit credit to the People.

[Michael's Store Announcer]

Attention party people. You're officially invited to the party shop at Michael's where you'll find hundreds of new Items starting at 99 cents with an expanded selection of party wear, balloons with helium included on select styles, decorations and more. Michaels is your one stop shop for celebrating everything from birthdays to bachelorette parties and baby showers to golden anniversaries. Visit MichaelSinstore or michaels.com today to supply your next party.

[Casa Overall]

I'm gonna put you on nephew.

[Alison Stewart]

All right unc, welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order miss?

[Casa Overall]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it from wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. January is National Mental Wellness Month and on all of it we'll be focusing on mental health on Mondays. We just heard about generational trauma and now we turn to a guest who navigates issues around mental health in his work. Here's a song from drummer, producer and rapper Casa Overall titled so Happy.

[Casa Overall]

I don't want to go to school, I don't want to go home. You don't know what it feels to really be alone.

[Alison Stewart]

You so cool ain't you?

[Casa Overall]

You so cool ain't you? You so cool cool cool cool. I don't want to be alive, I don't want to be dead. Why my got smoke? He performing with him. He was so happy. He was so happy. He was so what if you were Moses?

[Alison Stewart]

That's so happy from one time New Yorker Casa Overall. It comes off his latest album, Animals, which explores a host of feelings beyond happiness, including pressure and anxiety of being a working musician. Animals is Overall's third album as a bandleader and solo artist. He's on tour with it now, and you can catch Casa Overall at the Blue Note next Monday night. Overall joined us to talk about making the album, blending jazz and hip hop and how music has helped him deal with a history of manic episodes, anxiety, and other mental health challenges. I started by asking him about what was going on in his life when he released his debut solo album back in 2019, when he was about 35 years old.

[Casa Overall]

I moved to New York in 2006, and from 2007 until basically 2019, I stayed on the road playing with other musicians. You know, I played with a lot of jazz legends as well as some pop acts and things. And that during that whole process or that period, I was always making my own music, but I didn't really have the follow through to say, let me finish a project and put it out. And so actually, one thing that comes to mind, in the fall of 2018, I was getting ready to put the record out, and I was getting lists of tour dates for the next year. And my girlfriend and also co producer of this, of the new album, Animals, Lauren DeGraff, she was like. She was like, yo, you put all this time and energy into this album and you're gonna run around playing in everybody else's band all year? Like, if you're gonna do this, you have to, like, commit to it and say no and be broke and just start. Start from scratch, you know, and that was a big turning point. And it. I think it was a good decision.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, that your second album came out February 2020. And then insert Pandemic here, and then we're here. How much did the Pandemic have to do with the album coming three years after your last? Or did it just take that much time for you to get what you wanted?

[Casa Overall]

It just took that much time. I think that the interesting thing for me was February 28, 2020, I think I'm Good came out and we were getting a response like we had never gotten before, you know, and selling out of merch at every show and just getting a lot of good, good feedback. And I was like, finally, where we're in a place where, you know, this can work, you know, this. This small business can make sense, you know, and with the Pandemic happening, it was really. It really hit me in a. In a. In a hard way, because I was like, this is my moment. And right as that happened, it was like, shut down, you know, So I was planning on putting another album out the next year. And it's just kind of how long it takes, you know, if you try to. If you try to make something good, you try to make something that's better than your last thing. It just. It's done when it's done, and you have to. You have to honor that process.

[Alison Stewart]

Some of the initial ideas for some of these songs date back to 2019 or earlier. When you have those kind of ideas that are. That are hanging around or they're. They're living in your brain, they're just in their little space at one time. When do you know? When can you tell it's time to bring a song forward? When do you know? Yeah, that idea I had in 2017, now's the time.

[Casa Overall]

Well, one thing about it is when you're making an album, you have to pick the songs that fit together. So you might have. You might have a batch of new songs, but the new songs fit with that song from 2017, you know, and you go like, it's kind of like there were songs that I had before the last album that didn't fit on there. You know what I mean? And. And I have songs for the next album as well, you know, so there's that. And then the other thing. I don't know if this answers your question or if I'm veering away, but when I'm. When I'm. When I'm listening to the music and I'm almost finished with it, and it makes me emotional to listen to it, that's how I know it's. It's like time. You know what I mean? And sometimes that. Sometimes that emotional feeling actually has to do with the amount of work that I put into it. You know, you have the topics, but you also just have the. The. That you gave it your effort, you know, like, that you gave it your all, and you're just like. You know that you don't have nothing left, and you just kind of like, well, if they like it, they do.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, That's a good place to be. When you get to the point of, like, I don't really. You care, but it's okay if someone doesn't like it because I'm good with it and I did my best.

[Casa Overall]

Yeah. Yes, this is true. And I've. I've read some things that made me definitely go like, wow. I guess they're entitled to their own opinion, but maybe they also didn't Listen that closely.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, my guess is Casa. Overall, the name of the album is Animals and there's a 30 second sort of track skit called It's Animals. It's got this piano line, some animal sounds. It sounds like a pilot talking to a disruptive passenger. What is this?

[Casa Overall]

So it's, that's a. It's a soundscape, right? And it's the meaning, the meaning of it, it's like a metaphorical kind of meeting meaning. You know, it's not like this is it, this is an exact thing that happened, but it represents something for me. So it's. You have this skit of a pilot and somebody's freaking out on the plane and he wants to land, but at the end of the, at the end of the dialogue he says, yeah, we're going to land the plane and we'll need law enforcement, obviously. Right. And the point for that was, for me, being somebody who's dealt with mental health stuff in the past and had manic episodes in high school and those kind of things, but also the, the overlap between that and we'll need law enforcement, obviously, you know, the overlap between people having mental conditions but also being treated just as kind of normal people, you know, like, you can't, you can't necessarily judge everybody's actions in, in terms of what a sane person would do, you know what I mean? So for me, it was just kind of like a perfect way to, to point at that overlap between mental health and also carceral system, or however you want to put it.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take a listen to its Animals from Casa Overhaulta's 579.

[Casa Overall]

Go ahead. Yeah, we have an emergency with a disruptive passenger. We'd like to go Back to Delta 579. Copy that. And you can fly it in. 260 flighting. 260 for now and maintain that statistics beyond the heading. And we'll need law enforcement, obviously.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to follow up on the themes around mental health on your last album. I think I'm Good. You are navigating experiences of living with bipolar disorder on this album. On the song Make My Way Back Home featuring vocalist Nick Hakim. HE RAPS now the music is my therapist. We talk it out every night in the booth. How is music therapeutic for you?

[Casa Overall]

Well, I found music early. Early on my parents living room was a jam session space. Basically, you know, all the instruments were there and so learning how to express myself on the drum set came early as well as other, you know, writing little songs and ditties. And just having fun with music. It came early and I had some experiences as a young person that kind of makes you believe in a higher power or makes you believe in something that's unseen because you have these feelings of being connected to the whole all of existence in a moment, you know what I mean? Like those kind of moments in the music. And so those. That's kind of why I decided to be a musician. Because those moments affirmed my existence and my journey and my path. And. And so I used music as a means to wash off the world. You know, whether that's practicing drums, definitely like, definitely like practicing in a. Without like a intention of getting something done. But just the practice that is a way for me to cleanse out whatever I'm going through. And my teacher, Billy Hart, I would always go to him and ask him, you know, I'd be dealing with whatever I'd be dealing with and I would call him and oftentimes you say, well, you know, go practice and go play the drums and then make a decision. So it's like, that's my, that's my space, you know, to get. To get into a focused mental place.

[Alison Stewart]

That's a good advice. Let's hear Make My Way back home from Casa. Overall.

[Casa Overall]

I can't complain what's your life like? At a loss for words? I can't complain I sowed the seeds and prayed for rain I filled prescriptions to block out visions still feel the tremble of a victim Swallow my arrogance do the math of a mismarriage Plus a couple miscarriages Dreams never came true Family that I never knew Plus a couple is hating too now the music is my therapist we talk it out every night in a booth Trying to repair this we all trying to break free Like a bird in the wind Cause we all going home in the end but she don't want no drama.

[Alison Stewart]

Let'S make my way back home from the album Animals, My guest is ours. Casa. Overall, his new album is called Animals. So many great folks join you on this record. Vijay Iyer, Thea Croker, Nick Hakim. Some are first time collaborators, some are folks you've worked with before, like Vijay. What's the balance? How do you find that balance between the folks you've worked with for a long time versus newcomers?

[Casa Overall]

I. I would say I don't really think about it too much. You know, it's more of an intuitive, intuitive kind of flow. And obviously being a person that I can be in the front, you know, with the mic, I can play drums, I can Produce the whole thing. So I can play these different positions, and I think of these different artists as like, different colors or different. You know, it's like I can't. Even though I can do it all in terms of. I can play a lot of positions, I can't do it all emotionally, you know, like, there's. It's a different vibe that a different person is going to bring. So a lot of it is just really. I'm thinking about making the best song I can make. And I'm thinking about what can make this a little bit better, what could, you know, or who can say. Who can say something on this. This that I can't do. You know what I mean? And so the process is very intuitive, you know, And. And also there's a lot of trial and error because I might have somebody play something on a piece and then we're trying to use that and then maybe that's not working, and then I'll try something else or, you know, I've. There are a lot of lyrics that I wrote to some of these songs that are on the album that didn't make. Make it on the album because I just wasn't happy with it, you know. So when you get somebody like Ishmael Butler to. To lace the song, it's like he just changed the whole meaning of the song and changed the whole feel, you know. So it's just an honor, really. It's just an honor to have artists like these artists that are, you know, some of the best people that I look up to, to. To kind of validate what I'm doing.

[Alison Stewart]

You mentioned Ishmael Butler, who people might know from Digable Planets. He's on a track, I believe it's with Lil B and with Francis and the Lights. That's quite a list of people on one track. How did it come together? Was this one of those. Were you able to work together as a whole or do people send in pieces? And then you worked and made a.

[Casa Overall]

Collage out of was. It was both. And that track was actually. That was a track I've been working on for quite a long time. And I broke a hard drive and all I had was like the. How do I explain this to the audience? It. I didn't have the full session. All I had was like the two track. And so I took that and I worked on it for literally years. And I had a big writer's block around what the chorus was and what the actual lyrical part was. And. And then I linked up with Francis in the Lights. I Was driving from LA to Seattle, and I literally just drove to his house and was like, hey, you know, I need help with this. Like, And. And he's like, for. He's like, extremely talented at writing, you know, hooks and melodies and things. And. And we just. We got in the studio and. And literally and truly co Wrote it. You know, I brought a line. He brought a line, and we. We were giddy like little kids about it, you know, like, once we really found it. And little B sent his verse in. Ish. Ishmael Butler sent his verse in. But it was really like, one of those songs that, like, I know this is a strong song. I know this is worth it, but I can't figure out lyrically what to do, and so that's. I got to help, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you break the hard drive, man?

[Casa Overall]

I dropped it down this flight of stairs. No. Yeah. And I spent. I spent months trying to get it back. Like, I took it. This guy took it to, like, somebody that they. They do, like, governmental data recovery, and they just could do it, so. But that's okay. I figured out, you know, I like the final product. We figured it out.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. You wouldn't have this song if that didn't happen.

[Casa Overall]

Yeah, yeah, we. It's. It's a unique. It's just a super unique process to get to the finish line.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, let's hear. Going up.

[Casa Overall]

Wait a minute. Hold up. Wait a minute. Elevators, elevators, elevators, elevators. Going up, please. Before I let you go Take this little piece of me I know it isn't anything but you can have it all Life, life is very long, very long I could have gave everything your boy Lil B. But you can't have it all I could have gave you would have, should have, could have you my sugar dugger in my Cameron voice. Girl with your choice. It's all about choices.

[Alison Stewart]

A song that came back from the dead, that's called Going up from Casa. Overall, the album is animals. So I've seen this. I saw this in every article I read. A lot of the articles I read described you as a backpack producer. People can't see me. I'm like, I'm putting on a backpack when I say it. What does that mean, to be a backpack producer?

[Casa Overall]

It's actually a play on the bedroom producer. So, you know, over the past however many years, it became popular, the term bedroom producer, which is like, you don't go to the studio, right? You got. You have your little setup at the house, and you can do everything you need to do at home. But What I started doing in New York, I had a bike, and sometimes I took the train. But I would put all my gear in a backpack. You know, laptop, interface, microphone, headphones. That's the basic setup. I put it in my backpack, and I go to people's houses. You know, I go to Stefan Crump's house, the basis. Or Morgan Garon or Sullivan Fortner, all these different musicians who have, like, their instruments and have a setup at home. And I would. I would kind of latch onto their setup and record at their houses, you know, because there's something about being in person that you can't really recreate. You know, like, there's something about that process. And I have some great memories of Sullivan Fortner. You know, his apartment was basically a room with a Steinway in it. You know what I mean? It was like a little couch, a little kitchen, but the whole apartment was basically just this Steinway. So I come through with my mic and have him play on different sessions I'm working on, and we would get something really organic, really raw. And it also, like. Yeah. Anyways, that's the backpack producer.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to hear another song on your album. No, it ain't. Is there a chord progression that's a little bit like, you're all I need to get by?

[Casa Overall]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Intentional. Yes. It's a great song.

[Casa Overall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's a. That's a straight. That's a straight tip of the hat. Yeah, for sure. And a big shout out to Andre Merchantson, the trombonist who did the trombone parts. He's a trombone player that I went to Oberlin with. I've known him for many years, and he's been working on these concepts where he has. He stacks a bunch of trombones on top of each other, and that's. Yeah. And so that's kind of the basis of this one. And you'll also hear. It goes from You're All I Need into Jericho, The. The church melody. I don't know. The gospel melody. I don't. I don't know the exact name of the song, but it's Jericho reference as well.

[Alison Stewart]

But, yeah, let's hear. No, it ain't. That was my conversation with Casa. Overall. His latest album is titled Animals. You can see him at the Blue Note next Monday night. The sound of the subway these days is less showtime and more blow time. Cold, strep throats and Covid. Oh, my. Yes. Respiratory viruses seem to be everywhere, and the after effects seem to be dragging on. We'll talk about how to deal with the lingering cough with Rachel Sklar of New York magazine and Dr. Mark Hart Horowitz. That's right after the news.

[Commercial Narrator]

How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With wix, you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI, get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing, or work like a 10 person team even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done, you just need Wix. Try it out for [e-mail] attention party people.

[Michael's Store Announcer]

You're officially invited to the party. Shop at Michael's where you'll find hundreds of new Items starting at 99 cents with an expanded selection of party wear, balloons with helium included on select styles, decorations and more. Michaels is your one stop shop for celebrating everything from birthdays to bachelorette parties and baby showers to golden anniversaries. Visit Michaels in Store or michaels. Com today to supply your next party.