Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Lily King
Episode: "Lily King on Mastering the Love Triangle"
Air Date: October 16, 2025

This episode features acclaimed novelist Lily King, celebrated for her mastery of the literary love triangle. She joins host Alison Stewart to discuss her latest novel, Heart the Lover, which follows Jordan, a college student entangled romantically with two best friends, Sam and Yash. King explores why she gravitates toward love triangles, the nuances of writing compelling romantic tension, and the influence of time, intellect, and societal norms on her characters and plots.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of Heart the Lover (02:17–04:06)

• Abandoning a Previous Project:
  Lily King shares that before writing Heart the Lover, she was working on a murder mystery which lost her interest:

  “I just found myself after about 90 pages, just not caring who did it, not really wanting to explain why...All my interest in it dried up.” (02:35)

• Inspiration from Ann Patchett:
  A manuscript from author Ann Patchett reignited her creative spark and motivated her to write something fun:

  “She is having so much fun, and I want to have fun, too.” (03:06)

2. Characters and Their Evolution (04:10–05:00)

• Organic Character Development:
  King explains her characters’ voices come before their visuals:

  "I hear them more than I see them. I have to make an effort to describe my characters...I rarely change very much of my dialogue." (04:16)

• Characters Taking Over the Story:
  The story lingered longer in the college years than King anticipated, because she found herself enjoying those scenes and delaying the emotionally harder later sections:

  "...they took on a life of their own, and they started talking, and they wouldn’t stop talking." (03:54)

3. The Literary Love Triangle (05:20–07:33)

• Why Write Triangles:
  King doesn’t set out to create love triangles, but finds the dynamic between three people more tense and complex:

  "The dynamic of three is just, it’s more tension, there's more...left unsolved." (05:24)
  "You can't make a novel out of a ‘meet cute’ and one person meets another and they like each other…” (05:30)

• Desirability and Likability:
  King prioritizes what’s desirable to the protagonist, not herself or some objective sense:

  “…for there to be interest, I have to make them desirable to the character whether they’re desirable to me or not.” (06:49)
  She cares more about characters being interesting and compelling than likable.

4. The Coming-of-Age Setting (07:50–09:49)

• Why College?:
  College represents a time of many firsts for protagonist Jordan—intellectual and sexual awakenings:

  “Everything is so new. You know, it's so many, many firsts all at once.” (08:03)

• The Intellectual Connection as Romance:
  King intentionally roots the romance in intellect and banter:

  "For me, romance and intellect are very, very intertwined...that’s how I like a relationship to begin.” (09:55)

5. Name Games, Identity, and Homage (11:14–12:54)

• Great Gatsby References:
  Yash and Sam nickname the protagonist “Daisy,” then “Jordan” (after Jordan Baker):

  “I didn’t mean to do that...they nicknamed her Jordan. It was only sort of slowly, in writing those first 20 or 30 pages...” (11:43)

6. Navigating Desire and Friendship (13:12–14:18)

• Suppressing Attraction:
  Jordan’s hesitation to act on her feelings for Yash stem from her desire not to disrupt the trio’s friendship:

  “She really likes it, the three of them, and she knows that whatever she does to disrupt it would mean losing that.” (13:29)

7. Religious Tension & Sexuality (14:18–15:49)

• Sam’s Religious Beliefs:
  Sam’s belief that sex outside marriage is sinful complicates both the romance and Jordan’s feelings:

  “…she is made to feel very ashamed of this desire that she has…it creates a power dynamic when there’s already a power dynamic.” (14:38)

• 1980s Setting:
  King set the novel in the late 80s for authenticity and to introduce obstacles—no cell phones, only landlines—impacting romance and secrecy:

  “I think things would have gone very differently had there been cell phones and texting…” (16:08)

8. Time Jumps & Narrative Compression (17:02–19:06)

• Challenge of Leaping Decades:
  King enjoys employing a large time jump. The middle section had to be expanded after editorial feedback and discovering a major secret:

  “I love just plopping in and kind of going and trying to catch the reader up slowly and hopefully not to not spoon feeding them too much…” (17:15)

• On Narrative Compression:

  “We didn’t have to read all the...what’s in the middle. We just kind of get it. And it’s very, it's very distilled what we get.” (18:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Abandoning the Murder Mystery:

  "I just found myself after about 90 pages, just not caring who did it...and just everything. All my interest in it dried up." (02:36)

• On Characters Coming to Life:

  "They took on a life of their own, and they started talking, and they wouldn't stop talking." (03:54)

• On Love Triangle Dynamics:

  "The dynamic of three is just...there's more tension, there's more, I don't know, left unsolved." (05:24)

• Relating Romance to Intellect:

  "For me, romance and intellect are very, very intertwined. There's something both in life and in literature about characters connecting through sort of banter and wit and intelligence...It's like their form of play." (09:55)

• On Setting in the 80s:

  "It was all very important that it was landlines only, like wildly expensive phone calls. I think things would have gone very differently had there been cell phones and texting..." (16:08)

• On the Role of Secrets:

  "I came to the secret that she has, that you mentioned. I came to that very late in the process." (17:53)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:17]: Why Lily King abandoned her previous murder mystery
• [04:16]: On how King’s characters take shape
• [05:24]: King discusses the appeal of love triangles
• [09:55]: Romance and intellect—where the novel’s relationships begin
• [13:29]: Exploring why Jordan delays admitting her feelings
• [14:38]: The impact of religion on sexual tension
• [16:08]: Setting the narrative in the late 80s—obstacles and authenticity
• [17:15]: Navigating time jumps and compression in the novel’s structure

Summary Takeaways

Lily King’s Heart the Lover exemplifies the richness of the literary love triangle, explores the vulnerabilities of early adulthood, and the enduring power of intellectual connection in shaping romance. The episode provides a candid look at King’s creative process, her fascination with character-driven tension, and the craft and constraint that comes from setting and structure. Her discussion offers valuable insights for both fans and fellow writers, merging wit and depth in both content and delivery.