All Of It with Alison Stewart — Lincoln Center Celebrates 'Legacies of San Juan Hill'

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Etienne Charles (composer, musician), Lauren Schoenberg (Senior Scholar, National Jazz Museum in Harlem)
Date: October 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the history and cultural impact of San Juan Hill, the vibrant predominantly Black, Afro-Caribbean, and Puerto Rican neighborhood on Manhattan's West Side that was displaced in the 1950s to make way for Lincoln Center and Fordham University. The discussion centers on Lincoln Center’s ongoing reevaluation and celebration of San Juan Hill’s cultural legacy—culminating in the Legacies of San Juan Hill Festival. Composer Etienne Charles and historian Lauren Schoenberg join Alison Stewart to explore the neighborhood’s musical innovations, notable residents, and the significance of memorializing this storied community through music and art in present-day New York.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Historical Context of San Juan Hill

• San Juan Hill: Once a powerful hub for Black, Afro-Caribbean, and Puerto Rican residents, home to great musicians and writers. Displaced by urban renewal under Robert Moses in the 1950s.
• Lincoln Center’s Reckoning: Recent years have seen Lincoln Center acknowledge its origins atop San Juan Hill and celebrate the neighborhood’s music, culture, and enduring influence.

Musical Innovations and Cultural Exchange (03:00–08:00)

• Etienne Charles' Introduction to San Juan Hill:

  • Discovered connection while at Juilliard in 2006 and found out that many San Juan Hill musicians had Caribbean roots, including Herbie Nichols.
  • “Herbie Nichols’ parents were migrants to New York, specifically San Juan Hill, from Trinidad... That was the spark.” (Etienne Charles, 03:29)
  • Observed ongoing influences from Thelonious Monk and other Caribbean-descended musicians on jazz.

• Lauren Schoenberg on Musical Diversity:

  • Compared San Juan Hill’s cultural mix to “New Orleans a couple hundred years ago.”
  • “America still really hasn’t dealt with the issue of race... so the real multiplicity and all the different kinds of people that were living in San Juan Hill created something... it all came together in the music.” (Lauren Schoenberg, 04:48)

Defining the Musical Legacy (06:48–09:30)

• Roots of Innovation:
  • Benny Carter, Thelonious Monk, Rex Stewart, James P. Johnson, and even Aaron Copland connected to the neighborhood.
  • “Those tenement buildings were overpopulated... all these different cultures... you end up with this dance, which really was just a cotillion step in Charleston becoming known as the Charleston... a new style of music.” (Etienne Charles, 07:51)
  • Afro-Caribbean and Southern Black musical styles fused, creating swing and laying groundwork for bebop.
  • Not just a birthplace for jazz—also a site for salsa, mambo, classical crossovers, and literary figures like Zora Neale Hurston.

Continuing Influence and Living Memory (09:30–10:38)

• Personal Connection:
  • Lauren played with Benny Carter; neighborhood legacy stayed alive for decades as former residents continued to show support.
  • “There were still people from the San Juan Hill neighborhood who knew him, who came up outside just to shout at him from the street corner.” (Lauren Schoenberg, 09:47)
  • “The world at large knows 'West Side Story'—that is the area of San Juan Hill.” (Lauren Schoenberg, 10:24)

Festival Highlights and James P. Johnson’s Story (10:38–14:36)

• San Juan Hill Festival: Film screenings, concerts, and panels honoring the neighborhood’s story.
• James P. Johnson:
  • "If you had to trace jazz piano, all jazz piano, back to one person, that person would be James P. Johnson." (Lauren Schoenberg, 11:24)
  • Wrote "The Charleston," pioneered use of Afro-Caribbean rhythms in early jazz and symphonic writing.
• Key Events:
  • Aaron Diehl performing James P. Johnson’s music
  • Carlos Henriquez’s “A New Orican Tale” at Dizzy’s Club
  • Educational concert “Who is Thelonious Monk?”
  • Ongoing documentary screenings and panel discussions

Etienne Charles’ “San Juan: A New York Story” (14:36–22:19)

• Composition Structure:

  • Two parts—begins by honoring the Lenape (indigenous people) with poetry and music, follows the neighborhood’s evolution through swing, cultural fusion, and eventual destruction.
  • “It starts with honoring the Lenape... we play a piece to tribute the Lenape. And then we go into when Different People started coming... and from there we go into a piece called Swing Culture.” (Etienne Charles, 14:50)
  • Each movement covers a different aspect: dance evolution, cultural fusions, Robert Moses as “The Destroyer,” and even Zora Neale Hurston’s romance in the neighborhood.

• Living Connections:

  • “When I walk in the room, history is already seated in the chair.” (quoting Dionne Brand, 17:56)

• Second Part:

  • Orchestra enters, symbolizing Lincoln Center’s arrival and transformation of the neighborhood.
  • Movements include "Riot" (about 1905 racial clashes) and a tribute to pioneering Black millionaire Hannah Elias.
  • “I had to write what I see as like a seven minute musical, soap, comedy, romance, drama, suspense tribute to her.” (Etienne Charles, 20:43)

Urban Removal and Historical Documentation (22:19–25:32)

• Archival Integration:
  • Charles collaborated with Bayeté Ross Smith, using photographs to juxtapose past and present San Juan Hill.
  • Incorporated audio of real demolition for “Urban Removal” movement.
• Notable Collaborators:
  • Special mention of conductor Gerard Schwarz, connections to New York Philharmonic, and University of Miami’s centennial celebration.

Reflecting on Legacy & Community Commitment (25:32–26:27)

• Lincoln Center’s Responsibility:
  • “I’ve never seen a commitment like this for a historical institution embracing... Not only has it not been [forgotten]... they have kept that flag flying.” (Lauren Schoenberg, 06:17)
  • Guests praise Lincoln Center and emphasize ongoing annual celebrations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Musical Hybridity:

  • “San Juan Hill was revolutionary in the sense that because there were so many people living there... you end up with this dance, which really was just a cotillion step in Charleston becoming known as the Charleston—with this incredible piece of music and really like a new style of music.”
    — Etienne Charles (07:51)

• On Cultural Erasure and Remembrance:

  • “I hope it’s not just like a flash in the pan... Not only has it not been that, but they have kept that flag flying, including this upcoming festival... I’ve never seen a commitment like this.”
    — Lauren Schoenberg (06:10)

• On Living History:

  • “When I walk in the room, history is already seated in the chair.” (quoting Dionne Brand)
    — Etienne Charles (17:56)

• On the Ongoing Project:

  • “On the one hand we’re looking back... but on the other hand we are looking at today and, and that’s what I find so fascinating about it.”
    — Lauren Schoenberg (20:59)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:08 — Introduction; overview of the reclaimed San Juan Hill legacy and Lincoln Center's new stance
• 02:46 — Etienne Charles on discovering San Juan Hill’s significance and musical influences
• 04:40 — Lauren Schoenberg describes the cultural mix that defined San Juan Hill
• 06:48 — Etienne Charles details the musical innovations and resident creatives
• 09:30 — Lauren’s firsthand memories of Benny Carter and West Side Story’s connection to the neighborhood
• 11:11 — James P. Johnson’s pivotal role in jazz piano described
• 13:38 — Lauren lists festival highlights, including major performances and documentary screenings
• 14:36 — Etienne Charles walks through the structure and inspiration behind "San Juan: A New York Story"
• 18:01 — Movements on the 1905 riot and tribute to Hannah Elias
• 22:19 — Etienne on collaborating with visual artists and using demolition sounds for the concert
• 25:36 — Lauren and Alison reflect on the historical significance of the ongoing festival
• 26:35 — Etienne sets up his composition “Watch Night 2: Ring Shout,” illustrating Gullah and jazz connections

Closing Segment

Track Highlight:

• “Watch Night 2: Ring Shout” played out the segment.
  • “It’s a ritual that starts solemn because it’s in remembrance of the past, but then it breaks out in joy because of the future... tying the Carolinas and the Low country into San Juan Hill and into New York.”
    — Etienne Charles (27:01)

Host Thanks and Outro:

• Alison Stewart thanks Etienne Charles and Lauren Schoenberg and encourages listeners to attend the festival events.

Summary

With first-person anecdotes, deep historical context, and a critical look at urban removal, this episode of “All Of It” brings the lost world of San Juan Hill to life. It makes a compelling case that Lincoln Center’s commitment to honoring its foundational neighborhood is vital, not performative. From jazz innovations to interwoven family legacies, and from archive-inspired compositions to city-scale reckonings, the festival and the musical works it showcases invite all New Yorkers to engage with the city’s living, evolving history.