Local Art Alert: Amy Sherald

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart – Episode: Local Art Alert: Amy Sherald

Host and Context All Of It, a cultural exploration podcast by WNYC hosted by Alison Stewart, delves into the rich tapestry of New York City's art scene. In this episode, released on July 3, 2025, Alison celebrates the culmination of WNYC’s “100 Pieces of Art” series by engaging in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed portrait artist Amy Sherald about her exhibition, American Sublime, currently on view at the Whitney Museum until August 10.

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Celebrating New York City’s Art Scene

Alison Stewart opens the episode by highlighting WNYC’s year-long endeavor to compile a “100 Pieces of Art” list, curated by ten art experts, featuring prominent institutions like the Brooklyn Museum, Queens Museum, MoMA, the Met, and the Guggenheim, alongside lesser-known galleries. She encourages listeners to explore these artworks and participate by sharing their experiences on social media.

“[...] we hope, need, and want the WNYC community to be a part of our show. As we build a community around ALL OF IT, we know that every guest and listener has an opinion.” (00:35)

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Introduction to Amy Sherald and American Sublime

Alison introduces Amy Sherald, whose body of work includes vibrant portraits that challenge and redefine American identity. She describes some standout pieces, such as a black man perched on an iron beam and a first lady posed like Rodin’s The Thinker, setting the stage for a deeper discussion about Sherald’s artistic journey and her latest exhibition.

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The Artistic Journey of Amy Sherald

Early Inspirations and Realizations

Amy Sherald shares her early engagement with art, sparked not by museum visits but through encyclopedias, which provided her first introduction to artists like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci.

“[...] I didn't go to a museum for the first time until the sixth grade. So I was really just looking at books at home.” (05:05)

Her passion for art solidified during her private Catholic school years under a long-term art teacher's mentorship and later in college, where under Dr. Arturo Lindsay’s guidance, she began to view her ideas as meaningful contributions to the world.

Transition to Professional Artistry

Sherald discusses the pivotal moment when she decided to pursue art professionally, despite her middle-class upbringing and parental concerns about financial stability.

“I just knew I had to follow my heart.” (08:09)

She recounts how meeting a fellow artist who encouraged her to utilize her talent affirmed her decision to switch her major to art without her parents' initial approval.

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American Sublime at the Whitney Museum

Exhibition Overview

Amy elaborates on American Sublime, a collection that reflects her evolution as an artist over two decades. The show is organized chronologically and features a variety of her works, including both her signature vibrant backgrounds and her earlier, more subdued Grisaille technique.

“Americans, like who gets to be American [...] This painting is exactly that.” (17:58)

Highlighted Pieces

1. Hangman (2007)

   • An early work characterized by its process-driven approach, Sherald reflects on the challenges and introspections it prompted during a period of personal responsibility and family care.

   “You have to make, you have to fail fast, right? You have to make a lot of bad paintings before you make a good painting.” (11:49)

2. American, American Apple Pie (2020)

   • Inspired by a real couple from Brooklyn, this large-scale painting deconstructs traditional American tropes, embodying a modern narrative of American identity.

   “[...] swapping out these iconic kind of tropes that come into play when you think about what Americanism is and what it looks like.” (17:58)

3. If You Could Surrender to the Air, You Could Write It (2019)

   • This piece draws from Toni Morrison’s Beloved, featuring a black man on a suspended beam, evoking historical violence while recontextualizing it within contemporary conversations on race and identity.

   “[...] race is important, but it doesn't need to be the most important thing about the work.” (16:05)

4. Michelle Lavaugh

   • A portrait of Michelle Obama, Sherald conveys the former First Lady’s authenticity and strength, capturing her as a beacon of hope and self-acceptance.

   “I see a woman who brought so much hope and gave all of us permission to be ourselves because she lives in her full, authentic self.” (22:48)

Artistic Techniques and Evolution

Sherald discusses her transition from Grisaille to vibrant backgrounds, influenced by mentors like Grace Hartigan, and her exploration of color and form to engage viewers beyond discussions of race.

“I wanted to be a part of a greater conversation of American painters and not be pushed in a corner.” (16:05)

She explains how her techniques, such as starting with the eyes to anchor the portrait’s emotional depth, contribute to the universal appeal of her work.

“I feel like I have to finish the whole face first before I proceed to clothes or anything like that.” (24:26)

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Personal Trials and Artistic Resilience

Heart Transplant and Its Impact

Amy shares a deeply personal narrative about receiving a heart transplant at 39, an experience that underscores her resilience and dedication to her art.

“When the moment came [...] I was so satisfied with my life.” (26:03)

She reflects on how this life-altering event reinforced her commitment to authenticity and the universal themes in her work, emphasizing the spiritual journey it entailed.

Overcoming Doubt and Sustaining Creativity

Despite moments of self-doubt, especially during challenging periods of waiting tables while peers advanced in their careers, Sherald remained steadfast in her artistic vision.

“I had a deep knowing that this was gonna work out if I just kept going.” (09:07)

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Closing Reflections

Alison and Amy conclude the interview by highlighting the universal and personal dimensions of Sherald’s art. Sherald emphasizes the importance of creating space for authentic narratives within the broader American cultural landscape.

“I wanted to find out who Amy Sherald really was. Like, who are you outside of all these constructs that we're born into?” (26:03)

Alison wraps up by inviting listeners to visit the Whitney Museum and explore the diverse pieces showcased in American Sublime, encouraging continued engagement with New York City’s vibrant art community.

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Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers a profound exploration of Amy Sherald’s artistic journey, her contributions to American portraiture, and the deeply personal experiences that shape her work. Sherald’s dedication to authenticity and her innovative techniques provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of her impact on the cultural landscape.

For more insights and to view highlights from the episode, visit WNYC’s Instagram @instagramofnyc.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Today we are celebrating our 100 pieces of art series. For the past year we've asked 10 art experts, curators, artists, writers to share their top 10 don't miss pieces in new York City. It was a reminder of the great art that is available to us in this city. Our guests pointed out sculptures, murals you can see on the street, institutions from across the boroughs including the Brooklyn Museum, the Queens Museum, the Bronx Museum, the Whitney, the Frick, MoMA, the Met, and the Guggenheim, and even some hidden gems from smaller galleries that our experts wanted you to know about. You can listen to all of those conversations and see the Full list of 100 [e-mail] Art100 so in honor of their picks and the art of New York City, we've put together a kind of cheat sheet if you will, a sample of some of their suggestions and if you go to our Instagram of nyc, you can check it out. So get out there and see some art. And when you do, take a selfie with the work and tag us on social media of nyc. We'll repost it. You need some ideas of art to see? Well, let's get into it with our first conversation with portrait artist Amy Sherreld. Amy Sherrid paints portraits A woman holding a baby. A red haired teen rocking a leather jacket. A first lady sort of posed like the Thinker. A black man sitting on an iron beam high in the sky. About 50 paintings can be seen at the Whitney Museum in the show. Amy American Sublime Sherrid has been an artist since she was a kid. She worked her way through school and waited tables to make ends meet. New York magazine called the show an experience of having your breath taken away. When Cheryl joined me in the studio, I started by asking her to share her favorite parts about the process of getting the show ready for its opening back in April.

[Amy Sherald]

I mean, just the whole thing. To be honest, I feel like I got married last week. It's been like a wedding. It's just been like so much great energy. People are just so happy. There's a lot of tears when they come to the show. It's just a lot of Tears and hugs and just kind of pure joy, which feels strange right now because there's so many other things happening in the world that feel so heavy. So I think there's a sense of relief that it's happening, but then also a sense of relief that it's in the world and doing some good.

[Interviewee]

When you were a younger artist, you used to take the train up to the Whitney. What do you remember about those experiences? Who do you remember coming to see?

[Amy Sherald]

I remember one experience of coming to see a Keith Tyson exhibition at Pace Gallery, long time ago. And I remember being in that gallery space and just kind of standing around, because as a young artist, you're like, you know, I'm going to network. I'm going to meet people, I'm going to make connections. And in every gallery space, if you look around, you'll see that there's kind of this invisible door that opens, but it doesn't have a doorknob on it. And usually behind that door are all the people that you need to meet.

[Interviewee]

Right?

[Amy Sherald]

And I saw the artists walk behind that door, and then I looked around, and I'm like, I'm just standing here with a bunch of other artists that want the exact same thing that I want. And in that moment, I realized that it was probably more important for me to be in my studio working and being, you know, ready for the moment when it happens than like, trying to force something to happen by shaking a hand or meeting the right person. It wasn't going to happen magically. It's just going to happen when the work is ready.

[Interviewee]

Did you indeed manifest this show?

[Amy Sherald]

I keep a journal and I write things down. And when I made the painting that the Whitney bought for their permanent collection, in my mind, I was making that painting for it to be exhibited in the Whitney Museum. So, yes, I think thoughts become things. I truly believe that.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Amy Sherrill. The new show American Sublime opens today at the Whitney. We open till August 10. By the way, you grew up in Columbus, Georgia?

[Amy Sherald]

I do.

[Interviewee]

When did you discover art?

[Amy Sherald]

I discovered art in encyclopedias because my family, it's not. You know, my dad was into jazz. He played the trumpet. We would go to see plays and things like that, but we never went to museums. And so I didn't go to a museum for the first time until the sixth grade. So I was really just looking at books at home. And we had two sets of encyclopedias that I spent a lot of time with, and that was my. Whatever was in that. I don't know what the it's like, you know, each encyclopedia starts with a letter, so whatever was in that a book was like what I saw.

[Interviewee]

I used to read the encyclopedias all the time.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah. That's where I had my first art experience. And so I was meeting Michelangelo, Leonardo, and all those guys.

[Interviewee]

When did you discover you could make art?

[Amy Sherald]

Oh, wow. I guess at a very young age, too. But it depends on whether you mean art with a capital A or art with a lowercase a. I want to.

[Interviewee]

Start with the lowercase. Let's start lowercase A. Yeah.

[Amy Sherald]

I think when my mom decided to put me in art classes after school, I had the same art teacher from kindergarten to 12th grade. And. And I went to a private Catholic school and working with her, I started to, you know, I was just painting and working all the time. But I guess I would say it was probably in college when I met Dr. Arturo Lindsay, who was my painting instructor. And one of our assignments was to go see a show of his at a gallery called Nexus Contemporary. And that's when I really started to see my, you know, my thoughts and my ideas as something that were being formulated to put something out in the world that meant something.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Dr. Arturo Lindsay was really important part of your career.

[Interviewee]

What was something that he taught you.

[Alison Stewart]

Or introduced to you about art that you still use to this day to.

[Amy Sherald]

Make things that you care about? I think I was pre med. My father was a dentist, and so I changed my major to art without telling my parents when I was a junior. And he really worked with me to kind of, you know, help me catch up. But I think, you know, when he asked me, like, what I wanted to make work about, I wasn't sure. And he's like, you know, what kind of story do you want to tell? And at that time, I was really studying a lot of Frida Kahlo, and it was autobiographical. And so my first paintings were just that. They were lots of self portraits that were like a mix between Frida Kahlo and if someone had illustrated Octavia Butler story. And I wasn't even into sci fi, but that's just the direction that I was going for some reason.

[Interviewee]

All right, you had middle class black parents of a certain age.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

So when you said to them, I'm going to be an artist, first of all, what was the reaction?

[Amy Sherald]

It was a nightmare. I mean, like, it was. I might as well have said, I want to be a stripper. Like, they just did it. They were like, what are you talking about? How will you eat? Yeah, how will you eat? Yeah.

[Interviewee]

So what did you say to them that convinced them that you were going to be an artist?

[Amy Sherald]

I never did. I mean, I just knew I had to follow my heart. I met a man on Clark Atlanta University's campus randomly one day that was selling his art on this strip between campus and where the dorms were. And I ran back to my dorm and got this drawing that I had done that I had won, like, honorable mention at the University of Georgia for when I was in high school. And he told me it was good. And he said, you know, if you don't use your talent, you'll lose your talent. And something in that moment struck me. I got afraid. And that's when I changed my major. I just knew I had to do it. But my mom, literally, at the unveiling, was. We were walking with President Obama back to the press room to take pictures, and he looked at her and he said, you must be so proud of her. And she looked at him and said, well, I have to be honest. I really didn't think this was gonna work out. And I'm like, okay, yeah, it was a moment.

[Interviewee]

Did you ever doubt yourself?

[Amy Sherald]

Maybe for a day or two. I mean, like, because you wake up. And as I hit 40, you know, my late 30s and 40s, I was like, does this really make sense for me to do? When you're waiting tables and you're 35, 36 years old, and your friends are buying houses and, you know, having children and shopping for patio furniture, then you start to question your sanity. But I also had a deep knowing that this was gonna work out if I just kept going. Like, I made the work. And when some of the paintings that are in the show are paintings that I've made. And when I made those paintings, I felt something in my body that let me know that this was something that I needed to keep going.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Amy Sherrill. American Sublime is at the Whitney. Your practice. I watched a bunch of videos with you, and you always have earbuds in.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

What are you listening to when you're painting?

[Amy Sherald]

Either music or podcasts. It's like, stories, a lot of murder mysteries, things that. Things that keep me going. Yeah. I can't listen to music because it makes me want to move and dance, and I need to be still. My spirit needs to be quiet to work. So I can't listen to music. Music. I listen to music for people with adhd because that helps me focus, too.

[Interviewee]

Do you have any rituals in your studio before you paint or while you paint.

[Amy Sherald]

Now? A new One is taking my shoes off and putting on slippers. Because when I'm there for 10 hours, it, it really works. But I think coming in, having a cup of tea, and I try to read for 20 minutes before I start.

[Interviewee]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah, it just kind of settles. Settles my energy.

[Interviewee]

Fiction, Nonfiction?

[Amy Sherald]

Both. Yeah. I mean, it's really the only time I have to read. I feel like life is busy and usually, you know, it could take me six months to get through a book because I'm reading at nighttime and then I fall asleep. So. Yeah.

[Interviewee]

Why do you choose oil and canvas.

[Amy Sherald]

Or oil and linen when I. It's probably a silly answer, but when I was in graduate school, I felt like it was the thing to do to paint in oil paint as I painted in acrylic up until that time. And it's like, you know, I want to be a grown up artist, so I need to, I need to change to oil.

[Interviewee]

Acrylic wasn't considered grown up.

[Amy Sherald]

I mean, in my mind I was like, oh, this is more sophisticated.

[Interviewee]

Let's talk about the show. The show is hung in chronological order and one of the first paintings we see is Hangman from 2007. It's a little bit different from others. It's in profile, a man, he's at bare feet, he's in a model background. Just sort of alludes to violence in history. Hangman and Ru Hockley, who curated the show, said you weren't that sure about it.

[Amy Sherald]

I mean, you know, I'm 51 years old. I've been painting for a very long time. I made that painting in 2007 and it was really a process painting. Like you have to make. I tell young artists, like, you have to make, you have to fail fast, right? You have to make a lot of bad paintings before you make a good painting. And I'm not saying that that painting was a bad painting, but it was a process painting that I was asking questions because I had just come back from Columbus, Georgia, taking care of my family. I had been out of grad school for four years and had not been working because I was taking care of my family. So I was asking myself, like, what it is that I need to create in order for me to have a career and do this. And so when your listeners go to the show, if they're looking at that painting, they'll see three floating figures in the background. And those figures are what I was speaking about earlier of these kind of self. Bald headed self portraits that I was painting in college and undergraduate. But I was deeply honest with myself in that moment. And I said to myself, like, this work that you're making now isn't going to be the work that's sophisticated enough to carry your career forward. And so it took a year of me failing in order to get to that next level. And I had to cover up that painting that I spent so much time working on and ended up coming across some postcards from the exhibition. It's the Lynching exhibition where they had the postcards, and there's this one postcard where there's a figure. The photograph is so old that you can't see the rope that this man's body is hanging from. And so it's almost like he's levitating over a crowd. And so that painting is inspired by that photograph. But it ended up kind of just being like a one off. And I wasn't able to carry the idea or that thought. So it's. So it's an important. It's an important painting. It's just, you know, I mean, everybody, like once you've been painting for 10 years, you look back and you're like, it's okay if nobody ever sees that again.

[Interviewee]

But it's actually good, though, because the show is so expansive.

[Amy Sherald]

It is, yes. Yes.

[Interviewee]

It's interesting. Over time, I think people have come to know you for your vibrant background, these bright, vibrant backgrounds. But there are some that are modeled and it goes along the way. And I was looking through the book and I'm curious, when do you decide to go with just a background? Gardens or when do you decide when you're gonna introduce color?

[Amy Sherald]

I mean, that it, it happened gradually. The modeled kind of technique is something that I just came, I kind of randomly did in graduate school where I was making a painting, realized it wasn't working. I poured turpentine over it, left to go get something to eat, came back and the turpentine had kind of broken the surface of the paint. And for me, I thought it was an interesting way of dealing with the background because I didn't want the figures to be placed anywhere where there was any kind of contextual influence. I was also working and studying under Grace Hartigan at the time, who is a well known female abstract expressionist. And so, you know, she's a dripper. And so we would have these conversations and we talk about dripping. So I did a lot of glazing and, you know, allowing the paint to move on the canvas. When I was working in graduate school under her tutelage, and I think I made One painting that's not in the show. It was in the SFMOMA iteration that when I did the model background, for some reason, it didn't work with that figure, with the print on the sweater that she had on. And I remember calling Arturo, and I'm like, what do I do? And he's like, well, you do what you do. It's your paintings. You can do whatever you want to do. And I'm like, I'm a Virgo. I make these rules. I have to follow these rules that I've set for myself. And can I break this rule? What does it mean? And he's like, just calm down and, like, make a beautiful painting. So I made the background flat, and everything was okay, you know, but it just. I slowly just transitioned out of it.

[Interviewee]

You paint, and I hope I'm saying this right. Is it Grizzell?

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah, Grisaille. Grisaille.

[Interviewee]

Grisaille, yeah. It's a gray tone used for skin color. When did you start that? And what creative freedom does it bring you?

[Amy Sherald]

I started it after that hangman painting that we were just speaking about, and I realized that it was that one. I think artists, as we make aesthetic decisions, that it was just beautiful to see this gray figure floating in the middle of all of this color. Right. But then as I began to think about the work, as each painting evolved, I'm thinking two or three years later now, I look back, and I realize that I was subconsciously, I think, a little bit afraid that the work would be considered something to only have a conversation about race around or only have a conversation about identity around. And I really wanted to be a part of a greater conversation of American painters and not be pushed in a corner. So I think, for me, it was a way to kind of address that, where when you're approaching the work, you see color first, you see what they're adorned in, you see patterns, and then you come to this person. And, of course, I can never take race out of a conversation. Like, if we look at each other through our phenotypes anyway, like, it's just, you know, race is important, but it doesn't need to be the most important thing about the work.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Amy Sherrell. We're talking about American Sublime, which is at the Whitney right now. Let's talk about a few of the pieces which are special to this show. As an American, as apple pie from 2020. First time it's been shown, I believe, in the US outside of your studio. It's huge. It's a huge painting. There's a lot of storytelling in this piece. You see this woman wearing a Barbie shirt. She's got a nice skirt on, man next to her, he's wearing a jacket. There's a little white picket fence behind them, a little house. Maybe they're on the way to the barbecue. Not sure. The car looks a little bit old. What was the inspiration for it?

[Amy Sherald]

The couple. That couple was the inspiration. I mean, they're a real couple. They live in Brooklyn, New York. They collect cars. That was a 73 Buick that they had just gotten. And I just happened to come across them when I was in Brooklyn visiting a friend's mother. And I wanted to tell that story, and I had the Barbie idea in my head. But when I saw them, it just all came together as, like, this one big statement. I mean, we all are talking now about, like, who gets to be American. And I think, you know, really swapping out these iconic kind of tropes that come into play when you think about what Americanism is and what it looks like. This painting is exactly that.

[Interviewee]

If you could surrender to the air, you could Write it from 2019. It's a black man. He's on a suspended beam. White sweater, orange hat, sort of orange printed pants. First of all, what is the title mean?

[Amy Sherald]

It's a line from Toni Morrison's novel Beloved. And I do that a lot with my titles. When I say do that, I mean, I read books, find lines that really resonate with me. I save them and either use them immediately or I will make a painting that will be named something later.

[Interviewee]

And in that picture, it reminds me of all of the men. It's like an old, old painting who are sitting on a beam.

[Amy Sherald]

Yes. Lunch atop a Skyscraper.

[Interviewee]

Is it a relation to that?

[Amy Sherald]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

[Interviewee]

What happened to the rest of the men?

[Amy Sherald]

Well, I mean, I only use one figure. I mean, funny story is I had. I have an image. If you sit through the Art 21 video that's playing in the show, there's an image of the same beam with a group of women sitting on it. But in order for the painting to work, in my opinion, it had to be bigger than I was, bigger than I could make it, or it was too big. So I measured it. I had a canvas made, not knowing that I would not be able to get it out of the studio once it was made because it wouldn't fit in the freight elevator. So it's something that I might revisit, but it didn't work out the first time.

[Interviewee]

What did you learn about having to paint on a huge scale. Once you got your own studio and you can make them as big as you wanted, you really had to do shift a little bit.

[Amy Sherald]

It's very physical. And the individual portraits, the faces are more. When I say, I guess more nuanced. Like, I realized that my highlights had to be hotter and the contrast really needed to be there. So I'm constantly stepping off of the scaffold and walking back to see that the mark that I made, that I thought was so dynamic up close, 20ft away, I can't even see it. So, yeah, it's a different way of painting.

[Interviewee]

There's also. I think it's art 21 showed you painting for love of country.

[Amy Sherald]

For love and for country.

[Interviewee]

Thank you. And there's a photograph that you're painting off of, and there's a photograph which is of you taking pictures of your models. First of all, did you ever have any interest in photography?

[Amy Sherald]

I do. I mean, it's definitely a huge part of my process. It's of kind how I sketch, more or less, but I'm a painter, and so I'm sticking to my corner.

[Interviewee]

Well, what's the relationship for you as a painter to photography? You're looking at the painting.

[Amy Sherald]

I'm.

[Interviewee]

Excuse me, at the photograph. And you have to paint it.

[Amy Sherald]

I have. I mean, for me, photography was how I. It was the. I wasn't finding myself in art history, but I did find myself in photography. Like, you know, when Velazquez and Caravaggio were making these beautiful paintings, we were not making paintings as a black people, no matter where we were in the diaspora. So, you know, thank goodness for the invention of the camera. When we have the opportunity to become authors of our own narrative and create our own images how we want it to be seen. But it's a huge part of my process. But I'm not a painter.

[Interviewee]

You're a painter.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah. I'll leave that to Dawoud Bay.

[Interviewee]

My guest is Amy Sherrild. We're talking about American Sublime. It's her show at the Whitney. If you want to take a look at some of the images we're talking about, we've put a few on our Instagram of it. Wnyc. There are two big portraits in this show that a lot of people will know. One of Breonna Taylor and one of Michelle Obama. The name of the painting is Michelle Lavaugh. You can see every one of those names in that painting, in my opinion. What do you see when you look at it now?

[Amy Sherald]

Oh, wow. I see Her, I mean, I consider her a friend. I see my friend. I see a woman who brought so much hope and gave all of us permission to be ourselves because she lives in her full, authentic self. And I think that's one of her most endearing qualities. So that's who I see.

[Interviewee]

I went to see you and Annie Lewitt's talk. It was about a month or so ago, and Annie, I think she said, she described you as giving Michelle Obama her freedom back. Not literally, but I did understand what she was saying about you gave her sense of self back in the picture. First of all, do you agree with that idea?

[Amy Sherald]

I think so. I mean, I love hearing other people's interpretation of what I do because as the one who's creating it, you don't always have those thoughts because you're so close to it.

[Interviewee]

Do you get when you see a model or someone like Michelle who you know now, do you. How does the inner person, the person's inner self come out when you're painting?

[Alison Stewart]

Do you see it?

[Amy Sherald]

I feel it. It's an energy. We all have energy, and we're all drawn to have the friends that we have. I think we're drawn to the people in our lives, and I think I'm drawn to my subjects in that same way. But it's something that's difficult to put words to, to be honest.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I read somewhere that you paint the eyes first often. Why do you start with the eyes?

[Amy Sherald]

Well, I feel like I have to finish the whole face first before I proceed to close or anything like that.

[Interviewee]

What's a painting in the show, outside of the big ones that Mrs. Obama and Brianna and the ones that people know, the COVID of the New Yorker that you would really like people to spend a little extra time looking at?

[Amy Sherald]

Maybe the painting is named after a Lucille Clifton poem. It's listen, you a wonder. You're a city of a woman. You have a geography of your own. So that's just the first line of the poem by Lucille Clifton. But that painting is of a woman. We nickname her Church Girl. But it's a painting of a woman in a black and white dress and she's holding a purse. She has on a black hat. She's standing in the sun. And if you look closely, you'll see that there's a tan line on her ring finger where she's missing her wedding ring. And so I really. I just love that painting so much. I just love that painting so much.

[Interviewee]

Amy, our final question for you is something that I relate to. You were 39 years old, and you had a heart transplant? Yes, my sister had a heart transplant.

[Amy Sherald]

Oh, really?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, just a couple of years ago.

[Amy Sherald]

Wow.

[Interviewee]

And it's really an emotional journey.

[Amy Sherald]

Yes.

[Interviewee]

Aside from just the transplant, there's years after. Years and years after.

[Amy Sherald]

Yeah. 11 years now for me. Yeah.

[Interviewee]

How did it change your art? How did that second chance change your art?

[Amy Sherald]

It did not. I was waiting for my heart for two months at Johns Hopkins University. And while I was waiting, I was writing for a Jackson Pollock or no Pollock Krasner foundation grant. Because in my mind, I was just like, I still have to get out of here and make work, you know? So I guess it. What changed me was leading up to the transplant. So I was diagnosed with heart failure at 30 years old. And my doctor was like, you have about 10 years to live. Like, your heart function right now is at 18%. And I was asymptomatic. I was training for an Ironman. Like, I wanted to do triathlons. And so in that moment, for those 10 years, I did everything that. I took a lot of risk. And I think I might have still taken those risks had I not had, like, an expiration date. But because of that, when I got out of graduate school, I never thought, I need to hurry up and get a job so I can pay back these school loans. I was just like, f. These school loans. Like, I have a. A master's degree in fine arts, and I'm going to be an artist. And so I pursued that relentlessly. It's also a part of the work in the way that, you know, I wanted to find out who Amy Sherrill really was. Like, who are you outside of all these constructs that we're born into? Like, who are you? Who is your deepest self? So it was a spiritual journey. And I think, for me, that's why it's important for the work to exist in this universal space. Because I exist in this universal space, and so does this. My blackness. It exists in this universal space. And so those are the ways that I think I was deeply influenced. It just. I had to live as authentically as possible, because when that moment came where I was in the hospital for two months, and I knew that if I didn't get a heart in four weeks, I was so satisfied with my life. And I wasn't, like, hugely successful like the. But, you know, I had two paintings that. That were acquired by the National Museum of Women in the Arts. You know, like, my paintings were, like, $3,000. Like, it wasn't. You know, but what I was so happy about was that I didn't quit. I stayed true to myself. I never said, okay, I give up. I'm just gonna go ahead and get a regular job and, like, just do what everyone else did. It's like I was so in my mind I was successful. I would have died successful had I not gotten an organ in time.

[Interviewee]

Well, I'm glad you got the organ.

[Amy Sherald]

Me too.

[Interviewee]

That was my conversation with portrait artist Amy Sherrild. You can see her work on view at the Whitney through August 10th. Up next, we'll talk with Montclair born artist Nanette Carter about her homecoming show, A Question of Balance, which will be closing after July 6th. This is Ovid.

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