Love Hurts (And So Does This Music)

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It — "Love Hurts (And So Does This Music)"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Matthew Schnipper (WNYC Culture Editor, former Pitchfork Executive Editor)
Air Date: November 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It dives deep into the tradition of break-up albums in popular music, inspired by the raw new record West End Girl from Lily Allen. The conversation explores why breakups generate such potent art, what makes a great breakup album, and how both artists and listeners use music to process heartbreak. Along the way, listeners and callers share their own musical salves for heartache—from classic 70s rock to niche 80s European pop.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Anatomy of Lily Allen’s Breakup Album

Timestamp: 00:09–07:14

• Introduction to West End Girl:
  Alison introduces Lily Allen's new album, highlighting its unusually candid and specific lyrics about her divorce from actor David Harbour.
• Autobiographical Lyricism:
  Matthew Schnipper notices the blurred line between Allen’s art and diary, stating the songs feel "like a gobsmacking autopsy of marital betrayal" (00:59).
• Lack of Scorn:
  Schnipper notes Allen’s vulnerability and self-questioning:

  "There is a vulnerability...you want to kick them to the curb. You want that Beyoncé 'smashing the car windows' moment... I'm not sure she had that punch." (03:23)

• Narrative Specificity:
  The conversation focuses on Allen's use of concrete, diary-like detail—clothes on the couch, specific subway rides—as emotional evidence and narrative anchors.

2. Why Are Breakup Albums So Relatable?

Timestamp: 07:14–09:16

• Cultural Fascination with Celebrity Heartbreak:
  Schnipper suggests that the public nature of Allen's relationship, plus her intimate oversharing, fuels audience curiosity ("This is beyond group text intimate... the kind maybe people don't even tell their therapists. And Lily Allen has put it on Spotify," 05:58).
• Shift Toward Narrative Lyrics:
  Discussion of Taylor Swift’s influence and the broader cultural move toward confessional, narrative songwriting—reflecting how social media habits bleed into art.

3. The Pop Tradition of Breakup Albums

Timestamp: 12:42–14:21

• Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors:
  The eternal breakup record depicting intra-band romantic entanglements.

  "You cannot talk about breakups without talking about them...their forever situationship is classic and beloved and mystical." — Matthew Schnipper (12:51)

• Other Canonical Albums:
  Bob Dylan’s Blood on the Tracks, Alanis Morissette’s Jagged Little Pill, Marvin Gaye’s Here, My Dear are discussed as templates for the form.

4. What Makes a Great Breakup Album?

Timestamp: 11:36–12:42

• Essential Ingredient: Scorn
  Schnipper insists:

  "Scorn. Absolutely. Scorn...that kind of violence is what makes it real and is also what makes it eternal, because it's the kind of universal feeling that can be applied to so many disappointments in life." (11:36)

• Universality and Transferability:
  A great breakup album’s rage or sadness can become a portable comfort for listeners enduring all kinds of loss.

5. Callers' & Listeners' Breakup Songs

Timestamps throughout: 09:33, 15:19, 15:43, 15:48, 19:13, 21:30

• Jonathan: Modern Talking—learned 80s pop was a cathartic discovery after heartbreak in Poland (09:41).
• Joni: Ani DiFranco's Reckoning and Reveling (15:25).
• Scott: Bob Dylan’s Blood on the Tracks was deeply healing (15:48).

  "Bob's son who's the singer for the Wallflowers said he could only listen to that album one time because it was so personal..." (15:48)

• Tom: Elvis Costello’s "Toledo" (19:21), paralleling personal near-infidelity.

6. The Many Types of Breakups

Timestamp: 20:09–21:30

• More Than Just Romance:
  Schnipper: “There are so many different ways to mourn. I don’t think it has to be about [romantic breakup], but I do think it has to be about a solid split.” (20:24)
• Band Breakups & Friendship Loss:
  The show briefly touches on whether band breakups or other kinds of splits can provide the same material for a grieving album.

7. Gender, Blame, and the Breakup Album

Timestamp: 21:30–23:23

• Where Are the Male Breakup Albums?
  Schnipper wryly: “Well, it’s usually their fault, I think, probably. So that’s where they factor in.” (21:53)
• Iconic Male Example:
  Bon Iver’s For Emma, Forever Ago, created in a remote cabin post-breakup, is described as powerful but perhaps a bit “whiny” and “navel-gazy” (22:01).

8. Fiona Apple: The Bracing Power of No Closure

Timestamp: 23:23–25:21

• Fiona Apple's The Idler Wheel...:
  Praised for its confidence and refusal to process heartbreak in a traditional, therapeutic way.

  "I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about anything...That confidence to just say screw everybody, I’m over it, is great." (23:30)

9. Listener Theories & Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 25:21–26:01

• On Taking the Train:
  A running joke about whether Lily Allen (and Fiona Apple) actually take public transportation, with listeners chiming in to confirm Allen’s subway bona fides.
• Closing Hope:
  Schnipper: "I hope every broken heart repairs itself." (26:01)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Matthew Schnipper:

  "Even if an iota of it is real, I really thought, man, David Harbour sucks. That guy is the worst." (02:47)
  "You want that Beyoncé Lemonade smashing the car windows moment... I'm not sure she had that punch." (03:23)
  "[Fleetwood Mac]... their forever situationship is classic and beloved and mystical." (12:51)
  "Scorn. Absolutely. Scorn." (11:36)
  "Bob's son... said he could only listen to [Blood on the Tracks] one time because it was so personal..." (15:48)
  "There are so many different ways to mourn. I don't think it has to be about [romantic breakup]..." (20:24)
  "Well, it’s usually their fault... So that’s where they factor in." (21:53)
  "I don't want to go to therapy. I don't want to have a conversation with you. I’m annoyed. Leave me alone." (23:30)

• Alison Stewart:

  "But there are places where it feels like a diary...like, I went to the...there was another girl's clothes, they were all over the couch." (04:04)
  "It's got bops. You were just singing along to it...Lily Allen is extraordinarily likable." (08:16)
  [Reading a listener text] "Adele, 'Someone Like You.' I cried imagining that old girlfriend must have thought of herself when she wrecked my marriage." (15:19)

• Listener Callers:

  • Jonathan: "I ended up, you know, grieving my relationship listening to this weird 80s band I'd never heard before." (09:41)
  • Scott: "That album [Blood on the Tracks] is a masterpiece.” (15:48)
  • Tom: "All I could think of was Toledo, because Elvis's song about cheating on his wife." (19:21)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:09 – Introduction & Lily Allen's album
• 02:42 – Personal reactions from Schnipper
• 04:21 – Lyrical specificity and narrative
• 07:14 – West End Girl as cultural gossip
• 11:36 – What makes a good breakup album
• 12:42 – Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors discussion
• 15:19 – Listener breakup songs (texts & calls)
• 16:33 – Wednesday's Elderberry Wine & heartbreak in the recording process
• 19:13 – More caller stories
• 20:24 – The nature of breakups: not just romance
• 21:53 – Gender and the breakup album canon
• 23:30 – Fiona Apple’s approach to heartbreak
• 25:21–26:01 – Fun final listener comments; closing wishes for healed hearts

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Episode Tone & Style

Conversational, sharp, and empathetic—with a generous dose of wit. Stewart and Schnipper blend a deep love for music with an understanding that pop culture both shapes and reflects the lived experience of heartbreak. The listener calls anchor the discussion in real, often poignant, personal stories.

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Summary Takeaways

• Breakup albums continue to resonate thanks to their blend of specificity, universal emotions, and, often, a healthy dose of scorn.
• Lily Allen’s West End Girl stands out for its brutal honesty, humor, and confessional detail—reflecting broader trends toward narrative lyricism influenced by contemporary digital communication habits.
• Classic albums from Fleetwood Mac, Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, and Fiona Apple still set the standard for catharsis and emotional clarity.
• Listener participation reveals the diversity of heartbreak music, with selections ranging from Polish 80s pop to 21st-century indie rock.
• The healing process via music is as much about shared pain as vivid storytelling—one reason these records endure across generations.

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For further listening:
If you’re mending a broken heart (or just love pop culture analysis), these recommendations—curated by host, guest, and listeners—offer the perfect soundtrack.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. If you've just experienced a bad breakup, have I got a new album for you?

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

Did you fall in love with someone who isn't me? Why are we here talking about vasectomies? Did you get someone pregnant, someone who isn't me? Did you take her to the clinic? Did you hold her hand? Is she having your babies?

[Alison Stewart]

That's the song Just Enough, from actor singer Lily Allen. It's from West End Girl, her first album in seven years and it dropped last week. As you can probably tell, the album deals with heartbreak, but not in an oblique way. As the Guardian put it, quote, the album is a gobsmacking autopsy of marital betrayal. West End Girl is just the latest example in a long tradition of breakup albums like Fleetwood Max Rumors, Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill, Marvin Gaye's here, my dear. Joining us now to talk about breakup albums is WNYC's new culture editor, Matthew Schnipper. Matt, for those who say, hey, that sounds familiar, it's because Matt was the executive editor of Pitchfork and was a regular on this show. Welcome to the family.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Thank you, Alison. It's nice to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

As a colleague, listeners, we want to hear from you. What album do you listen to when you are just going through it? What song did you have on repeat when your heart was broken? Call us right now. 212-43396, 92212. You can also text us that number, but please don't text us while driving or call us while driving. You can't do that. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. For those of you who are sitting down, let's talk about Lily Allen. Here's the backstory. She recently filed for divorce from actor David Harbor. Then, boom, she dropped an album. And she told British Vogue that it was inspired by what went on in. In that relationship. When you sat down and you listened to the. You're shaking your head.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Yes, I am.

[Alison Stewart]

When you sat down and you first listened to the album, tell us, what did you think initially?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Well, it's funny you use that word, inspired. So unclear how much of this is gospel, but even if an iota of it is real, I really thought, man, David Harbour sucks. That guy is the worst. That's kind of what I thought first. And then as I kind of dug into the album, there are all of these pockets, you know, she's running through. He did this and he did this. But she has all of these moments where she's talking about, did I make a mistake? Where was I wrong? Was I responsible for this? And I felt really sad for her because it's clear that there is a vulnerability and a lack of, you know, you want to kick them to the curb. You want to do, you know, like in the lemonade in Beyonce's video where she's smashing all of the car windows. That's the kind of vitriol you want when you've been wronged. Like. Like, she has, clearly. And I'm not sure that she had that punch. She really felt. She really felt like, oh, was she complicit in getting walked all over? And, you know, I'm not there. And again, this is a piece of art, not a diary. But you want to go to her and kind of reassure her and say, no, you're not complicit in this. This guy stinks. You know, that's how I felt.

[Alison Stewart]

But there are places where it feels like a diary. Like, I went to the call. I went to the. In our house, there was another girl's clothes. They were all over the couch.

[Matthew Schnipper]

I mean, I'm looking forward to doing karaoke with you, but these.

[Alison Stewart]

The. The lyrics are so specific.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Yes. And I think that that has been a lyrical trend that I've seen as people doing very kind of plain narrative lyrics. And maybe it is cathartic just to get that out and to say, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. You know, that's one of the things that's nice about writing something down. It makes it real. You know, if she's feeling like, oh, I'm responsible for this. That's the feeling in her head. The literal kind of, I found this object and this and this object, and this was happening in our home. It gives it a narrative, something that she can kind of hold onto and point to, as she can point to the. Point to the charges, in a way.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's play another clip from the Lily Allen album. And I can't say the title of this song because of FCC regulations. It's P. Palace, as in kitty palace, as it were. Let's listen.

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

Don't come home I don't want you in my bed Go to the apartment in the West Village instead I'll drop off your clothes your mountain medication I'm already on my way Heading to the station Stuck on the f There's a problem on the line I couldn't be more stressed I'm losing my mind up to the first Floor key in the front door. Nothing's ever gonna be the same any anymore. And that's when I realized something.

[Alison Stewart]

Don't feel someone who works here said this is all she and her friends can talk about. Why do you think West End girl is making such a splash?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Not the details, but this is the song that I think has more probably UNFCC friendly details about the. David Harbour's alleged infidelity in a way that feels extraordinarily intimate. This is, you know, this is beyond group text intimate. This is the kind of maybe things that people aren't telling their therapists. And Lily Allen has put it on Spotify. Everybody likes gossip. And in some ways this is what that is. This is. But I think she's also done it in a way that sounds very sing song and sweet and. And very funny. You know, she's got a good sense of humor. I think the reason people want to talk about this is the reason you want to talk about anybody's relationship. In some ways, that's the only thing really worth talking about. Right. And when you get into the nitty gritty of this and you get into the celebrity element of it and you get into. They had a very public relationship, you know, you can go back and watch the. I think it's an Architectural Digest tour of this said palace and then go, oh, my God, that's what went down in there. You know, it's very easy to imagine all of these things. So she's really putting it. She's drawing quite a picture for you.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm interested. Do you think artists who are writing these kind of songs now are writing more narrative lyrics? Has Taylor Swift kind of made this okay for people?

[Matthew Schnipper]

I think that that's the case. You know, people are writing, look, you know, we've been using social media for a long time where you're encouraged all the time to say small bites of what's happening in your life. You know, it used to be Twitter. They'd ask you what's happening. We got used to this type of language of just, hey, here's. Here's what we're doing. You know, texting is writing. You know, it's constant updates with your friends. And I think that that has bled over into art. I don't think that that's necessarily bad or good, but I think if you look at kind of the way in which we use writing right now, it makes sense that it would show up in lyrics.

[Callers (Jonathan, Joni, Scott, Tom)]

How.

[Alison Stewart]

How long is this going to. How well do you think West End.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Girl will age that's a great question. I mean, it. It is a fun album, you know, I think that is one of the things that it has a good record.

[Alison Stewart]

It's got a lot of bops to it.

[Matthew Schnipper]

It's got bops, you know, you, you. You were just singing along to it, you know, It's a fun. Lily Allen is extraordinarily likable, you know, And I think that people will always be listening to her music. I would imagine, especially with some of the heartbreaking est, the truest realist stuff. How many times do you want to get punched in the face? You know, like you're listening to it and you're kind of like, oh my gosh, really? You know, so it. Even as sort of sing songy and lovely as it is, it's still kind of harsh. Can I ask you one question about this, though, A detail that I was confused about. Do you think Lily Allen really takes the f train? She's got a place in Brooklyn. She's got a place in the West Village.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, she's kind of a New York celebrity. They take the train, you think so occasionally.

[Matthew Schnipper]

That was the one. I felt like every detail on this album, I personally think when she was.

[Alison Stewart]

Crying and sad, I could see it. Yes, I could see that.

[Matthew Schnipper]

All of these things. I was like, yes, I believe all of the. Everything I was. I was like, I don't know about the f trade.

[Alison Stewart]

Here's a couple of texts we got. I listened to James Blunt, back to Bedlam, the gift by Annie Lennox. Two songs are tied for me for first place. Against all odds by Phil Collins, and I can't make you love me by Bonnie Reed.

[Matthew Schnipper]

What a classic.

[Alison Stewart]

That's a good one. Let's talk to Jonathan. Hey, Jonathan, thanks for making the time to call. All of it.

[Callers (Jonathan, Joni, Scott, Tom)]

Hi. Yeah, so I. In 2010, I had met a woman when I was living in San Francisco, and she was Ukrainian, born in. And basically she was leaving the country and she went to Poland and I followed her to Poland and I was trying to woo her back to the States. And while I was there in Poland, I heard music that I'd never heard before from like, really 80s sounding music. And it was this band called Modern Talking. And so I. So I like, we were at a Japanese restaurant, I remember, you know, and in Warsaw. And I heard. And I was like, what is this music? Why are they playing all these like, 80s, you know, bands I've never heard before? And she's like, oh, yeah. You know, in Poland and Eastern Europe, we never had our 80s during the communist, you know, era. So that's why they're listening to all this. And Modern Talking was this big band, you know, in Eastern Europe that I had never heard growing up in the US So I ended up, you know, she ended up breaking my heart. And so I ended up listening to Modern Talking, like, discovering this band, you know, and grieving my relationship, listening to this weird 80s band I'd never heard before.

[Alison Stewart]

Aw. Thanks for calling.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Did you leave Poland?

[Alison Stewart]

I guess you left Poland in the 80s, you know, had something to go back to. We're talking about breakup albums with Matthew Schnapper. Snipper, right?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Yeah, that's it. Okay, thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

A culture editor at WNYC and Gothamist listeners, we want to hear from you. What album do you play on repeat when you're nursing a broken heart? What album help you process the sadness? Give us a call at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. What makes a good breakup album, in your opinion?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Scorn.

[Alison Stewart]

Scorn.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Absolutely. Scorn. I think, you know, that is in some degree what kind of makes me sad about Lily album's. Lily Allen's album in that. I don't know how much fire is in it. You know, she. She's trying to get through it, and that's. You know, you're gonna write from that place, and then, you know, she's going through the stages of grief. She hasn't gotten to the. I don't know if scorn is officially one of them, but maybe it should be the anger one. To me, that kind of violence is sort of what makes it real and I think is also what makes it eternal, because it's the kind of universal feeling that. The feeling of heartbreak that can be applied to so many other types of disappointments in life. And when you get someone who can write about it with real. With real hatred and real. Real substance, it's a very. It's a very useful thing. You know, I think it's sort of. It becomes a portable type of music.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about Fleetwood Max Rumors. This was during the band's incredible series of relationship messes. Why is this on your list?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Oh, my God. Well, what could be more. What is more eternal than, you know, you cannot talk about breakups without talking about them. You know, Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, these two kind of, you know, their forever situationship is classic and beloved and mystical. And these are the type of things, I think when you imagine what your life will be like, you go, oh, my God, I'm gonna. I'm gonna grow up and become entangled and dramatic and artistic like that, you know, I'm gonna have a lot of lace and long hair and people, you know, love is gonna burn within me, you know, that's what you imagine, you know? Then you find out it might not be quite as fun as that, but it's certainly cinematic.

[Alison Stewart]

Here's Silver Spring from Rumors.

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

So I begin not to love you Turn around, see me run I say I loved you years ago Tell myself you never love me no, don't say that. She's pretty and did you say that she loved you? Baby, I don't wanna know.

[Alison Stewart]

You heard her. She doesn't want to know. We are talking breakup albums with Matthew Schnipper, culture editor at WNYC and Gothamas. We'll have more calls after the break. You're listening to all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We're talking breakup albums with Matthew Schnipper, culture editor for WNYC and Gothamist. This text came in Matt. If Matt wants scorn, I got two for you. Ben Sherman by Heavenly and next time around by Elvis Costello. This one says Adele, someone like you. I cried imagining that old girlfriend had the must have thought of herself when she wrecked my marriage. And this one says I'm a bit old school. David Ruffin's cover of I miss you was played a lot when I messed up in my relationship.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Uh oh.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Joni from Brooklyn. Hey, Joni, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Callers (Jonathan, Joni, Scott, Tom)]

Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. I just wanted to give a shout out to Ani DiFranco for reckoning and reveling, which was. I guess that was a while ago. It was an album that I listened to quite a bit when it came to matters of the heart and the color gray.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Scott from Red Bank, New Jersey. Hi, Scott. Thanks for calling all of it.

[Callers (Jonathan, Joni, Scott, Tom)]

Hi, Allison. Hi, Matt. Hey. I would highly recommend. And it was very therapeutic for me, even though me and my wife didn't split up, but when we had some trouble, Bob Dylan's album blood on the tracks, especially the song idiot Wind, Bob's son who's the singer for the Wallflowers, said he could only. He only listened to that album one time because it was so personal about Bob and his mother's divorce and breakup. And if you're having a breakup, like every single one of those songs is relatable on that level. That album is a masterpiece.

[Alison Stewart]

Scott, thanks for the tip. We appreciate it. All right, we're gonna go back to some music. Matt, you recently wrote the introduction to an essay by musician Carly Hartsman that was published in Vulture, and she's a singer for the band Wednesday. What's the backstory there?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Oh, gosh, this one just. This really breaks my heart especially. Cause it's so fresh. Carly Hartzman is in this band Wednesday with her now ex boyfriend, NJ Lenderman. Her essay is about as both of their careers were blossoming, both in him on his own and her within the context of being the singer of this band, their relationship suffered. They were both traveling, and the times that they had for each other were when they were kind of the most exhausted. And in the process of writing and recording their most recent record, they broke up. And so songs that she had written as love songs for her bandmate became breakup songs. And people didn't know when they were working on this, the producers, other people in the. In the group didn't know that they'd broken up. And so she documents the period of singing a love song while having been freshly. While being freshly split. And I thought this was such, you know, her essay is wonderful, and I would recommend everybody read that. But I thought this idea of something having a love song that actually has the tone of a breakup song is such an interesting thing. It kind of flips it on its head. And really it's a powerful song because the passion is there. It's not exactly the passion you would expect, but it certainly makes it a raw song, a raw album. Excuse me.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's listen to Elderberry Wine by Wednesday.

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

Sweet song is a long con. I drove it to the airport with the e brake on. Ain't heard that voice in a long time. Had to check back there to make sure you were alive. Angel humbled an electric car reverses toward me Sometimes in my head I give up and flip the board completely. But everybody gets along just fine. Cause the champagne tastes like elderberry wild? And the pink boiled eggs Stay afloat in the brine. Cause even the bell champagne still tastes like elderberry.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Tom from Brooklyn. Hi, Tom, thanks for calling, all of it. Do you have a breakup album for us?

[Callers (Jonathan, Joni, Scott, Tom)]

Yeah, it's an. Actually a breakup song, Toledo by Elvis Costello, where he. I think he's speaking to his ex about an affair that he had. And it really went right to me because I was a huge Elvis fan. My wife and I were not getting along well. I was out of town on business. I almost consummated an affair. I was in a pool, you know, drinking and dancing with somebody. And I was close. And believe it or not, my ex wife called me and somebody handed me the phone. I had to talk to her, but I almost did it. And on the way home on the plane, all I could think of was Toledo. Because Elvis's song about cheating on his wife.

[Alison Stewart]

Gosh, Tom, thanks for sharing that story.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Elvis Costello sounds like he really got into some. He had some nasty times.

[Alison Stewart]

It does sound like it. Do you think, Matt, do you think a breakup album has to be about a romantic breakup? Can it be about a band breakup?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Sure. I mean, how many different kinds of love are there? There are that many kinds of breakups. You know, there are a lot of things that'll break your heart. Pets, family, jobs, your band. You know, there. There are so many different ways to. To mourn. I would say so. No, I don't think it has to be about that, but I do think it has to be about a solid split.

[Alison Stewart]

A solid split.

[Matthew Schnipper]

I don't think. You know, I think Lemonade, for example, is an album which has a lot of the scorn I was talking about, but I don't know that Lemonade is a breakup album.

[Alison Stewart]

Okay.

[Matthew Schnipper]

They stayed together, you know, unless there's something we don't know about because, you know, who knows what's going on in other people's.

[Alison Stewart]

She's got it out of her system on the album.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Exactly. You know, that's an album where you're spewing everything out and kind of just, you know, that's. That's. The album was just like you messed up. But that's the sort of preambled a couple's therapy album. Or maybe in the middle of it, I suppose they didn't. I don't think that they broke up. I do. I would love to hear a Beyonce. No, I mean, I don't want to wish divorce on Beyonce and Jay Z. I hope they have a long, happy marriage. But I'd listen to the album.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, this says all by Myself, both Eric Carmen and Celine Dion versions a powerful album. That's like therapy after a breakup. Peter Gabriel's Us written while Gabriel was going through divorce and therapy. That's a good record. We've been talking mostly about women. Where do men factor into this?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Where do they. Well, it's usually their fault, I think, probably. So that's where they factor in.

[Alison Stewart]

Do men. Can you think of a male breakup album?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Can you imagine? Let's get the David Harbour version coming soon. No, I mean, I think the album. The kind of quintessential male breakup album to me is, you know, forever for Emma, Forever ago, the Bon Iver album, which he recorded, you know, pretty famously in a, you know, in a cabin in the woods. And this album, which, you know, I revisited, It's a beautiful album. He has an incredible voice. You know, it's very aching, but it also sounds a little bit. I mean, I feel bad saying it. It sounds maybe a little whiny, you know, a little like a little more than navel gazy when you listen to it.

[Alison Stewart]

Now let's listen to Bon Iver and Emma.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Sorry. Bon Iver for your life.

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

Still very lovable. To the land. So many fun roles.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Forever.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to get to one of your favorite breakup albums. Fiona Apples, the Ideal Wheel.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that. It has a very, very, very, very long title. I love this album. And in particular, a lot of the music on this album is about her break up with the writer Jonathan Ames. And there's a song called Jonathan, you know, in a Lily Allen spirit, is very kind of literal. No albums. No songs on that album called David harbor, though. I don't believe next one. But I love this album because there's. There's some real pleasure in getting rid of this dude. And I love Jonathan because the. One of my favorite just lyrics of all time, she just kind of has this refrain that goes, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about anything. Like, I loved this idea that. Which was just like, you know what? I don't want to go to therapy. I don't want to have a conversation with you. I don't want to, like, revisit this over coffee. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in doing any processing. I'm annoyed. Leave me alone. And I was like, that's. That's great. I think I like that. That confidence to just say screw. Screw everybody. I'm over it is great.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear from you on Apple.

[Lily Allen (song lyrics)]

Jonathan. Call again. Take me to walk on the aisle and take me on the train. Kiss me while I calculate and calibrate. For heaven's sakes, don't make me explain. Just tolerate my little fist tugging on your forest chest. I don't want to talk about. I don't want to talk about. Remember? I don't want to talk about. I don't want to talk about anything.

[Alison Stewart]

You're right. Do you want to talk about anything?

[Matthew Schnipper]

No.

[Alison Stewart]

She's done.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Anything you would like to add as we get ready to finish up? About breakup albums?

[Matthew Schnipper]

Well, not necessarily about breakup albums, but I do want to say I absolutely believe that Fiona Apple takes the train to Coney Island. That is that.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, wait a minute. We got a text about that that says if you're an OG Lily Allen fan and you follow her on social media, you she stays in the train.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Okay.

[Alison Stewart]

Respect.

[Matthew Schnipper]

That sounds great. Maybe she can take the the C or the the one over here and come talk to us about her record. Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing I would say about breakup albums is, you know, I hope every broken hearts repair themselves.

[Alison Stewart]

Matthew Schnipper is the Culture editor for WNYC and Gothamist, and we are glad to have you. Matthew, thank you for joining us.

[Matthew Schnipper]

Thank you, Alison. Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail].

[Alison Stewart]

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