'Love on the Spectrum' On Romance And Autism

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart, WNYC
Episode: "‘Love on the Spectrum’ On Romance And Autism"
Date: September 1, 2025

This episode centers on the Netflix docuseries Love on the Spectrum, which follows neurodivergent young adults as they navigate the complexities of romance and relationships. Host Alison Stewart interviews the show’s creators and executive producers, Kian O’Clery and Karina Holden, discussing the impetus for the show, the unique production approach, balancing authenticity with support, and the universal lessons about love. Listener calls add further perspective, particularly concerns about representation and inclusion, while also celebrating the impact of the series.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Vision for the Show

• Kian O’Clery describes how the show grew out of a previous documentary about people with disabilities seeking employment. Many participants expressed longing for love but lacked support in social and romantic development, which inspired Love on the Spectrum (02:49).
  • Key aim: Showcasing diversity within the autism spectrum and disrupting stereotypes perpetuated by media.
  • Media representation prior to this show was limited and often portrayed autistic individuals as similar; this series is designed to highlight their uniqueness.
  • Quote:

  “There is this kind of... probably a bit of an understanding, or not an understanding, but a thought that people on the spectrum are all quite similar. And I think a lot of that was to do with what media representation we'd had so far...”
  —Kian O’Clery (04:38)

2. Evolving Lessons and Personal Impact

• Karina Holden shares how each season sharpens her own sense of compassion and influences her parenting (05:23).
  • “Radical honesty” is an ongoing lesson from the show for creative work and personal growth.
  • Audience and participant feedback reveal the show’s importance for validation and representation.
  • Quote:

  “It’s such an incredible gift to be part of the show.”
  —Karina Holden (06:51)

3. Diversity of Experience Within Autism

• Kian O’Clery regularly asks cast members, “What does autism mean to you?” to highlight the breadth of experiences on the spectrum (07:08).
  • The show centers cast members’ own voices, avoiding generalizations.
  • Quote:

  “For each person, it means a very different thing. And, yeah, it just feels like something that's really important to explore.”
  —Kian O’Clery (07:15)

4. Ethical Production: Support and Autonomy

• The production maintains a small, consistent crew to foster trust and comfort for the cast (07:57).
  • Activities and pacing are adapted to each participant’s needs.
  • Participants can halt filming or take breaks at their discretion; nothing is forced or manufactured.
  • Quote:

  “We’re not throwing them in a house or on an island somewhere in order to find love under some other construct. It's really something to do with the way that they would live their lives. But they've just got this crew of supportive people there with them as they go along...”
  —Karina Holden (09:13)

5. Navigating Representation and Potential Exploitation

• Listener Rachel raises concerns about possible exploitation, especially during vulnerable moments (10:00).
  • Kian O’Clery emphasizes: participants’ agency and consent are paramount, their happiness is the best metric.
  • Shows genuine struggles as essential to truthfully reflect the dating journey; positive outcomes carry more weight after struggle.
  • Quote:

  “Sometimes it’s important to see a struggle people can face... it was important for us to show that because that's the truth of his story.”
  —Kian O’Clery (11:38)

6. Addressing Sexuality and Intimacy

• Increased focus on sexuality as participants’ relationships mature (14:04).
  • The show follows participants' lead regarding intimacy, treating it as a normalized aspect of human relationships.
  • Quote:

  “It's important to normalize sex in all relationships. If it's something that people want, then we should be able to talk about it.”
  —Karina Holden (14:27)

7. Family, Community, and Guidance

• Listener Mark seeks advice about supporting his older brother with autism in seeking romance (16:03).
  • The show highlights community problem-solving and the growing network of autism-oriented support groups.
  • Acknowledges a gap in resources for older adults—the show tries to represent these experiences (e.g., with participant Steve).
  • Quote:

  “When people initially thought about autism as being something where there was social awkwardness, that that meant that there wasn't this desire for love and belonging. But I think what the show demonstrates in spades... that is absolutely not true.”
  —Karina Holden (17:48)

  • Kian adds: dating apps for neurodiverse people are emerging (19:15).

8. Memorable Moments: Abby’s Song for David

• Clip of Abby singing to David on their anniversary, showcasing an authentic, joyful relationship (19:56).
  • Quote (Abby’s lyrics):

  “I feel safe when I'm spending time with you / Even when we have nothing to say or nothing to do... Being with you is easy, you're just who I need.”
  —Abby (19:56)

• Karina describes such success stories as deeply fulfilling, both for the couples and the community they inspire (20:49).

9. Universal Dimensions of Love

• The anxieties and hopes shown are relatable for all, neurotypical and neurodiverse viewers alike (22:26).
  • The series fosters empathy, kindness, and the drive to become “a better person” (22:43).
  • Example: New cast member Madison was inspired to seek love after seeing Abby and David’s story (23:21).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Kian O’Clery:

  “There is this kind of... thought that people on the spectrum are all quite similar. And I think... a lot of that was to do with what media representation we'd had so far...”
  (04:38)

• Karina Holden:

  “It’s such an incredible gift to be part of the show.”
  (06:51)

• Kian O’Clery:

  “For each person, it means a very different thing... And, yeah, it just feels like something that's really important to explore.”
  (07:15)

• Karina Holden:

  “We’re not throwing them in a house or on an island somewhere... They're just got this crew of supportive people...”
  (09:13)

• Kian O’Clery:

  “Sometimes it's important to see a struggle... that's the truth of his story.”
  (11:38)

• Karina Holden:

  “If it's something that people want, then we should be able to talk about it.”
  (14:27)

• Karina Holden:

  “When people initially thought about autism as being something where there was social awkwardness... that meant that there wasn't this desire for love and belonging. [But] that is absolutely not true.”
  (17:48)

• Abby (participant, singing):

  “I feel safe when I'm spending time with you... Being with you is easy, you're just who I need.”
  (19:56)

• Kian O’Clery:

  “The themes are all very similar... looking for love and wanting belonging.”
  (22:43)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:49 — Genesis of the show: From employment doc to a need for romance-focused storytelling
• 05:23 — Karina on compassion, parenting, and personal growth through the show
• 07:08 — Importance of asking what autism means to each person
• 07:57 — Karina details the small, supportive production team approach
• 10:00 — Listener Rachel on representation and fear of exploitation
• 11:12 — Kian on authentic participant agency and storytelling
• 14:04 — Addressing sexuality and maturity of relationships
• 16:03 — Listener Mark seeks advice for supporting an older brother
• 19:56 — Abby’s heartfelt song for David
• 22:43 — Kian on universal anxieties and lessons of love

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Episode Tone

The tone is warm, insightful, and respectful, infused with genuine empathy for both participants and viewers—reflecting Alison Stewart’s thoughtful interviewing and the creators’ authentic commitment to representation and positive impact.

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Conclusion

This conversation offers a broad and nuanced look at Love on the Spectrum—its origin, production ethics, impact on families and participants, and the universal thread of the desire for human connection. The episode powerfully demonstrates how the series not only serves neurodiverse communities, but also breaks down barriers to understanding and empathy for all.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. I hate to say it, folks, but it's Labor Day, which means summer is winding down. If you've been keeping your sunny season busy with some of the vacation tips we've talked about on the show, you might be a little tuckered out, traveled out, oversunned and in need of some quality time with your couch and your tv. Name a more iconic duo than that. So to help you make good choices about the shows you want to pair with your downtime for today's all of it, we are revisiting conversations about some of the television and streaming series that have been making waves in this year's Emmy nominations. The awards are being held on September 14th. Later in the show, we'll talk with two of the stars of Severance, which leads the pack at 27 nominations. We'll also talk about andor the dark sci fi resistance series from the Star wars universe and Adolescence, which looks at.

[Host/Interviewer]

Violence, gender and how children can be.

[Alison Stewart]

Radicalized on the Internet. That's all on the way, but first.

[Host/Interviewer]

We get things started with a little love.

[Alison Stewart]

Love on the Spectrum follows a group of neurodivergent young people as they navigate the complicated world of romance. There are folks like Abby and David who have been dating successfully for years. Others like Madison and Tanner, have been unlucky in love so far, and everyone is coming to the process with anxieties we all have. Will they find me attractive? Will we have interests in common? What might physical intimacy look like? Season 3 of Love on the Spectrum is streaming on Netflix and has been nominated for five Primetime Emmy nominations. The show's two creators and executive producers, Keanu Cleary and Carina Holden, joined me in studio to talk about it. When the show first dropped and listeners. During the conversation, we took some calls, but since this is an encore presentation, we won't be able to take your calls today. I asked Kian to explain where the ideas for this series first came from.

[Kian O'Clery]

I was making a series with Northern Pictures with Karina back in Australia for our public broadcaster, which is the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. So we're big fans of public broadcasting at Northern Pictures, and so we Were making a series that was about following people with disabilities looking for employment. And kind of the show is about kind of highlighting the skills that people can bring to a workplace and kind of giving people opportunities and helping audiences understand what, you know, the positives that can be brought to a workplace by employing a diverse range of people. And through that process, just met many, many, many young adults on the autism spectrum. And we just kept hearing as we got to know people through the casting process, not just the people we filmed with, but also the hundreds and hundreds of people we spoke to in the casting process. There was a. There was a real kind of yearning with a lot of people to find love and, and to enter the dating world. And there was a lot of people we met that hadn't yet started to date. And I think, you know, an example is Mark, who is in the first series of Love on the spectrum. He was 29 years old, wanted nothing more than to find love and never been on a date. So it just felt like there was this kind of space where the support wasn't quite there, and there were a lot of people we were meeting who really wanted that support. And in Australia, we had a lot of support for employment, but not for kind of the dating relationships, finding love, social skills. So it just felt like a really interesting kind of space to explore as well as, you know, I just realized there were all these really interesting, wonderful people on the spectrum, and that was really diverse. And, you know, we, we. I took to Karina, she loved it. We developed it and, and pitched it to the ABC public broadcaster. And, you know, eventually we got it up. But it was hard. You know, it was hard. And interestingly, one of the things that was hard was people would say, well, isn't it just going to feel the same? Because everybody's on the spectrum. And our answer to that is that's the whole point of why we need to make the show, because everyone is very different. And there is this kind of probably a bit of an understanding, or not an understanding, but a thought that people on the spectrum are all quite similar. And I think a lot of that was to do with what media representation we'd had so far in films and maybe in TV shows. So that's kind of how it all started.

[Host/Interviewer]

Karina, for Love on the Spectrum, what lessons did you learn from the first season of the show that you've carried with you into season three?

[Karina Holden]

Oh, it's, it's such a. An amazing, an amazing experience to be part of a show that teaches you about compassion and understanding. Right from the start. And I just feel like every single season, there's new things to explore and learn. And as the mother of a. A young son with autism, it's really taught me so much about parenting and. And radical honesty and being the kind of parent that I really want to be. But it's also taught me so much about my own relationships and about just bringing enthusiasm and not playing games and. And the kind of beautiful way that people celebrate each other in the show. There's just an overflowing of joy that comes through, both in the way that people bring themselves to tell their stories and then the way the audience responds as well. And so it just feels like such a rich experience being involved in. In something that has meant so many. There's so much to so many people, both those people who've participated in the series, but also people who look at it and feel validated for themselves or their stories or the people around them that they're seeing in different ways. And so, yeah, it's just such an incredible gift to be part of the show.

[Host/Interviewer]

Kian, you're often the one doing the interviews with the cast members. We heard you a little bit in that clip. Sometimes you ask the cast members what aut autism means to them. Why is that a question that you wanted to ask?

[Kian O'Clery]

Because it means something different for every person. And I think, again, that's just a. A part of trying to understand the diversity of the spectrum and just how wide the spectrum is just, you know, for each person, it means a very different thing. And, yeah, it just feels like something that's really important to explore. And, you know, I think what's great about the series is being able to hear from real people in their own voices about what their thoughts are on what autism means. And, you know, as well as everything else, as well as their hopes and dreams and, you know, what they want from life and all that good stuff.

[Host/Interviewer]

Karina, what kind of support do you have on hand for the cast if they. They get overwhelmed or they get upset or they just need extra support?

[Karina Holden]

It's a really important part of making the series that we keep a team very small and that there's a continuity right from the very beginning. And so on set, there's a very small group of people of whom Kian is both a director and a second camera. And then we have a camera and a sound and another support person, but they stay consistent from the very beginning of casting all the way to the end. And it's a very considered process in that things are done at the right pace for each person at the right time, that we're fitting in with their lives. We're not constructing anything that they're not comfortable with, that they're really telling the stories in the ways that they want to, but that they've developed that relationship. And it's one that, you know, Keyan's there as their wingman, really. And that starts from the moment that they start speaking before any filming happens. And it continues through our first master interviews with them. And then, you know, they become part of a family. I mean, people who have filmed with us over the seasons of Love on the Spectrum are very much involved with each other and. And with our crew as well. And I think that that just kind of comes from the. The way that we film so that people feel that things are done at the. In the way that they want to, in a pace that they're comfortable with and that they're not being put out of their comfort zones, that they can really check in and they can stop things if they're not comfortable, if they're in the middle of filming and they want to take a break, that's all possible because we're not throwing them in a house or on an island somewhere in order to find love under some other construct. It's really something to do with the way that they would live their lives. But they've just got this crew of supportive people there with them as they go along for that journey.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's take a call. This is Rachel, who is calling in from niacc. Hi, Rachel, thanks for making the time to call all of it. You're on the air.

[Caller Rachel]

Thank you for coming on the air. So, first of all, myself, I'm 65. I am a bit neurosparkly myself, although I was never diagnosed as a young one. But I have three daughters who are in their 20s and 30s. This is our favorite show on TV by far. But I do struggle at times, wondering if. Is there. If this is exploitative at all, you know, I mean, everybody who's on the show seems to be happy to be on the show. But then there's times when I'm watching, like when I watched James this season and saw him struggling in that scene, speed dating and saw him struggling, he gets. He gets so anxious and so. And I just feel like, am I just looking in a fish tank at this poor kid? And I just. Young man, and I just want to take him and put my arm around him and say, it's gonna be okay. Yeah. And I don't know if that's like, am I, is this, you know what I'm saying?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, let's, let's let Keon address this issue. What do you think, Keon?

[Kian O'Clery]

Well, I would hope not. And I think it's good that you acknowledge that the participants themselves are really happy to be in the show. And for me and for Karina, their feelings and their thoughts on the series are the most important. For me, they're the most important critics of anyone. And they all love the show. They love being a part of it. People always want to come back for the next season, if possible. And then James, for example, the, the speed dating that we filmed James going to, he'd been going to a lot of speed dating events, and it was a really important part of his story. And he, he, he does struggle with it, but he keeps doing it because he really wants to find love. And it was important for us to show that because that's the truth of his story. You know, like, I think if we hadn't have shown that, which has been such an important part of his search for love, it probably wouldn't really be genuine. And I think, you know, it, it's, sometimes it's important to see a struggle people can face. You know, somebody mentioned, I saw recently someone mentioned online, why was James speed dating with neurotypical people? Because that's what James does. That's what James wants to do. You know, so again, it's about us following people, doing things they want to do, and dating people they want to date, you know, choosing to go to a restaurant or to go speed dating or, or whatever it might be. It's really important that we follow James, for example, doing what he wants to do. And I think, you know, I'm not sure if Caller has finished the season yet, but there's, there's good things ahead for James after speed dating. And I think having seen him struggle, it just makes it so much more rewarding when he does have success in the end.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Kian and Karina. They are the creators and executive producers of the Netflix series Love on the Spectrum. It's a docu series which follows a group of people with autism as they navigate the dating world. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of IT on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Today we're talking about some of the year's best TV shows as voting closed last week for this year's Emmy Awards. Right now, we're talking about the series Love on the Spectrum, the docu series follows a group of people with autism as they navigate the dating world. My guests are the creators and executive producers Kian o' Clery and Karina Holden. The show features a number of series subjects exploring not only romance, but physical intimacy and sex, often for the first time. I asked Karina how sexuality emerged as a key theme this season.

[Karina Holden]

It's often coming from a place where participants are now in relationships as opposed to just meeting people for the first time. And so their relationships are maturing and that's just a natural part of what somebody may wish to explore. And we just go along on that journey with people. So it's important to normalize sex in all relationships. If it's something that people want, then we should be able to talk about it. And so, yeah, I guess we're just guided really by what the participants are exploring in their own thoughts and with their, their family members as they discuss those, those more sensitive topics.

[Alison Stewart]

Kian, when you introduce people going on dates with the cast members, I should say they, you share two things that they like and a couple of things that they don't like. Why does this feel like the right way to introduce people into the show?

[Kian O'Clery]

Oh, look, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I kind of borrowed that from Amelie. I don't know if you've seen the French film Amelie from was it in the 90s of the 2000s. And it just, I just loved that way of just introducing someone in a really quick, fun, interesting way. And so we just kind of took it from there and, you know, I think it can, I don't know, it's just a nice way to introduce people on a, on, on a show that without having to kind of go into deep diving details about who they are. But it was just a nice little snippet of something that says something about who they are before we meet them. So that's really all that is. But, you know, people seem to really like it and we, we have fun filming those. Actually, that's, that's the best part of the shoot. Right at the end when we're finishing up all the filming and the stories and we film these little snippets and it's, it's great fun.

[Alison Stewart]

Talk to Mark from Norwalk, Connecticut. Hi, Mark, thank you so much for calling all of it.

[Caller Mark]

Hi there. My brother, my oldest brother is in his mid-60s. He lives in a small town in Central Costa, California. He's never been on a date and. Yeah, and he's expressed, he expresses almost every time we Talk an interest in having sex. And obviously, I'm here on the east coast now and I'd like. I'm really at a loss of what to do and how to support him in achieving what he wants in his life. Any thoughts?

[Alison Stewart]

Karina? You could probably help out our caller. You deal with the families quite a bit on the show. They're a big part of the show, actually. What have you seen people from the families talk to their brother, sister, daughter about?

[Karina Holden]

Well, I think that the thing that we've always loved to explore on the show is the way that there is a very openness between families and knowing that the human experience is something that we're all going to have a different perspective on, but when we come together that maybe we can kind of problem solve some of these things together if you're in that safe space of people who care about you. And I think one of the interesting things that has happened that we've seen, Keon and I, since we've been working on the show is the number of autism organizations and support groups that have grown and tried to find a space now for dating and relationships and advice about sex and intimacy. And it's something that possibly wasn't there so much going back a decade, but it's slowly gaining some momentum with an awareness that when people initially thought about autism as being something where there was social awkwardness, that that meant that there wasn't this desire for love and belonging. But I think what the show demonstrates in spades that that is absolutely not true. And so how do we help a family member who wants that love, who wants to find a partner who wants to explore? You know, we'd love to be able to find love for everybody out there, but hopefully there's some groups that are in your part of the world that might be able to have those social skills or those dating experiences or the speed dating that happens. But I guess the challenge for your brother is that being in his 60s, a lot of this is aimed at younger people. And it's why we wanted initially, in season one and two in America, we. We had Steve, who was an older gentleman from San Francisco, had been diagnosed at a much older age, and. And he had those same desires. And so, you know, hopefully people saw themselves or. Or a family member in him, and hopefully that means that they're within communities, people are looking at how to support those people.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kian O'Clery]

And there's also a couple of apps out there, so I, you know, suggest maybe looking them up and see if there's any opportunities there. There's a couple of dating apps that have been created spec specifically for people on the spectrum. So you never know. But, yeah, hopefully those organizations will even. Even if they're just having, you know, social nights for people to get together and meet and, you know, hopefully there's. There's something like that that could help.

[Host/Interviewer]

I want to play a quick clip from the show. This is Abby and David, who we've been following since season one. They've been together. They're celebrating their third anniversary, and Abby wrote David a special song. So let's listen.

[Abby (show participant)]

You can name every animal at the zoo. I feel safe when I'm spending time with you Even when we have nothing to say or nothing to do. But I was kind of nervous to meet someone new, and then I got used to knowing you. You understand me? Remind me to breathe Being with you is easy you're just who I need I know sometimes I'm in when I'm with you I'm in the world instead no one treats me better.

[Alison Stewart]

Love her voice, first of all. But, Karina, what does it mean for you to have a couple like Abby and David who met on the show and are still together? Karina, are you there?

[Karina Holden]

Yes, I'm here.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Karina Holden]

Yeah. I mean, look, I think the success of people falling in love on the show is just. Just. It's such a rewarding thing to know that there are relationships out there that have come about because they. They filmed with us and that they were introduced by our team and that. That goes all the way back to the Australian series as well, where there are many of the. The couples that were introduced are still together today. And, you know, it's. We're so proud to be part of their lives. And then the influence that they've created and the confidence they've got and the ripple effect that they've had on community has just been wonderful. And I think, you know, as producers, we have a choice of what we spend our time making. And, you know, Ken and I were tragic watchers of dating shows and loved looking at other reality programs. But, you know, like, we really wanted to do something that made a difference in the world. And I think that being able to see people who are differently abled, who are given this kind of spotlight and this chance to be part of something that is a cultural phenomenon like a dating show, of being part of a popular culture movement where they become the heroes to people in the world, it's just so beautiful. And whether it's because they're now in a relationship and they can show that that's achievable or if it's just by being their authentic selves. And so people have these, these role models now who are autistic. It's, it's such a rewarding thing to see in the world.

[Alison Stewart]

Kian the show is about people with autism, navigating, dating, but many of the issues and anxieties they face, they're universal. It's like, you know, you totally, totally relate. What do you think the show has to offer a neurotypical audience as well as a neurodiverse audience?

[Kian O'Clery]

Oh, I mean, I think just the, the themes are all very similar and when it comes to looking for love and wanting belonging and wanting to find someone special and how, you know, I think Karina talked before about the series kind of, you know, inspiring people to be more and more empathetic and more caring and more. I think it really helps with that. I think it's, yeah, I think it's just, it helps me to want to be a better person and nicer and kinder, less, I guess, I don't know some of the negative things that a lot of us bring to our lives. And also, I guess just talking about Abby and David and the inspiration of them as a couple, you know, Madison, who's one of the wonderful new cast members in the season three, was absolutely inspired by Abby and David's love story. And you know, Abby and David's story is what brought Madison, what caused Madison to think I can find love as well, you know. So I think it's really nice to see that, that people are seeing it. People are getting inspired and putting themselves out there and finding love themselves as well.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with Keanu Cleary and Carina Holden, creators and executive producers of the docuseries Love on the Spectrum, which has been nominated in five categories at this year's Emmy Awards. Up next, the second season of the Star wars saga andor is up for 14 Emmys. We'll talk about it with creator Tony Gilroy and star stellen Skarsgard.

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