Matt Berninger's New Solo Album

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary: Matt Berninger's New Solo Album

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart (filled in by David Fuerst)
• Episode Title: Matt Berninger's New Solo Album
• Release Date: May 30, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT explores culture and its consumers, engaging with thinkers, creators, and artists to delve into the what and why of their work.

---

1. Introduction and Album Release

[00:00 - 01:12]

David Fuerst opens the episode by announcing the release of Matt Berninger's second solo album, Get Sunk. He provides context by mentioning that this album follows five years after Berninger's debut solo effort, Serpentine Prison, and numerous releases with his band, The National, including two full-length LPs in 2023. Fuerst also highlights that Matt Berninger is embarking on his first solo tour, with upcoming performances at Webster Hall and Rough Trade.

David Fuerst: "Get Sunk comes five years after Berninger's debut solo album... Matt Berninger is on his first solo tour."
[01:12]

2. Evolution from First to Second Solo Album

[01:12 - 03:49]

The conversation transitions to the genesis of Get Sunk. Julia Laws explains that Serpentine Prison was initially intended as a covers album inspired by Booker T. Jones's Stardust. However, as original songs began to emerge during production, the focus shifted entirely to original material. The pandemic-induced lockdown interrupted the planned tour for Serpentine Prison, leading to the development of new songs that eventually culminated in the Get Sunk album.

Julia Laws: "Serpentine Prison started out as a covers record... we just switched to original while we were kind of cooking it."
[02:08]

3. Impact of the Pandemic on Album Creation

[03:49 - 08:01]

Julia discusses how the COVID-19 lockdown affected the album's production. The inability to tour Serpentine Prison led to studio collaborations under challenging conditions, including mask mandates and social distancing. Despite initial plans being derailed, these constraints fostered new creative processes, allowing for the development of the first batch of songs that would be part of Get Sunk. This period also marked a profound personal journey for Berninger, especially concerning his struggles with depression.

Julia Laws: "On came the lockdown and everything. And so there was no, I couldn't tour Serpentine Prison."
[03:49]

4. Themes of Depression and Water Metaphors

[08:01 - 12:13]

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the themes of depression and personal struggle within Get Sunk. Julia elaborates on her use of water metaphors to depict emotional states, emphasizing their elemental and universal nature. She references a pivotal conversation with David Letterman about depression, highlighting the notion that "there's nothing wrong with water until you're under it." This metaphor underscores the depth and omnipresence of depressive feelings, aligning with the album's exploration of mental health.

Julia Laws: "Water is something... it's so elemental that it just. It can apply to so many things."
[04:08]

Julia Laws: "In times of difficulty... get sunk..."
[09:29]

5. Discussion on "Times of Difficulty"

[08:01 - 12:13]

The episode delves into the song "Times of Difficulty," the album's closing track. Julia explains that the song was conceptualized before her personal battle with depression but gained deeper meaning during her experience in 2023. The phrase "in times of tears get sunk" is explored, revealing its inspiration from the Kansas state motto, "Ad astra per aspera" (through adversity to the stars). This duality reflects both personal resilience and a broader human contemplation of existence.

Julia Laws: "Kansas had to make a choice, slave states or free states, and they decided to be a free state, and they made it their state motto."
[11:03]

Julia Laws: "Times of Difficulty is about... trying to understand our place in the universe and why we're here."
[11:37]

6. Collaboration and Band Members

[13:36 - 16:24]

Julia highlights the collaborative nature of Get Sunk, introducing key band members and contributors. She mentions Julia Laws (also known as Ron Boy) as a prominent vocalist on eight tracks, along with other musicians like Sean O'Brien, Garrett Lang, and Sterling Laws. The tight-knit group has been working together for five years, ensuring a cohesive sound for live performances. Julia also notes the involvement of Kyle Reznik from The National on brass arrangements.

Julia Laws: "Julia Laws, also known as Ron Boy, sings on eight of the songs on this record."
[15:08]

7. Live Shows and Cover Songs

[16:24 - 18:57]

The discussion shifts to Matt Berninger's live performances, including the integration of cover songs into his sets. Julia shares her experience covering iconic tracks like Radiohead's "Kid A," Nirvana's "All Apologies," Tom Petty, and Tom Waits's "Looking for the Heart of Saturday Night." She expresses both the challenge and joy of interpreting beloved songs, emphasizing the emotional connection and personal significance they hold.

Julia Laws: "I have to ask you about this, too. You're closing some shows with COVID songs. Radiohead's Kid A, Nirvana's All Apologies."
[16:37]

Julia Laws: "I was like, let's do my favorite song ever... it was so fun."
[17:25]

8. Conclusion and Upcoming Performances

[18:11 - End]

As the episode wraps up, Julia expresses excitement for the upcoming live shows at Webster Hall and Rough Trade. She appreciates playing these songs live for the first time and looks forward to connecting with audiences. David Fuerst concludes by playing a snippet of "Inland Ocean," the album's opening track, leaving listeners with a taste of Get Sunk.

Julia Laws: "I can't wait. I love Webster hall so much. And no, and I love New York."
[18:37]

David Fuerst: "We're gonna hear a little bit of Inland Ocean, the opening track."
[19:16]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• David Fuerst: "Get Sunk comes five years after Berninger's debut solo album..."
  [01:12]

• Julia Laws: "Serpentine Prison started out as a covers record... we just switched to original while we were kind of cooking it."
  [02:08]

• Julia Laws: "Water is something... it's so elemental that it just. It can apply to so many things."
  [04:08]

• Julia Laws: "Kansas had to make a choice, slave states or free states, and they decided to be a free state, and they made it their state motto."
  [11:03]

• Julia Laws: "I can't wait. I love Webster hall so much. And no, and I love New York."
  [18:37]

---

Key Insights and Conclusions:

• Creative Evolution: Matt Berninger's transition from a covers album to original material showcases adaptability and creative growth, influenced significantly by external factors like the pandemic.

• Mental Health Themes: Get Sunk delves deep into personal struggles with depression, using water metaphors to articulate complex emotional landscapes.

• Collaborative Effort: The album is a testament to collaborative artistry, with contributions from longstanding band members and new collaborators enhancing its depth and richness.

• Live Performances: Incorporating cover songs adds a layer of nostalgia and personal connection, enriching live shows and offering audiences a blend of original and cherished tracks.

• Philosophical Undertones: The album not only reflects personal battles but also engages with broader existential questions, inviting listeners to contemplate their place in the universe.

Get Sunk emerges as a multifaceted work that intertwines personal vulnerability with universal themes, presenting Matt Berninger's continued evolution as a compelling solo artist.

Transcript

[David Fuerst]

Foreign. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst filling in for Alison Stewart. Today is the release day for Matt Berninger's second solo album, Get Sunk. Let's hear a little bit. This is a bit of the song Bonnet of P.

[Matt Berninger]

It takes a lot to really disappear Always leave traces in.

[Julia Laws]

Leaves.

[Matt Berninger]

Never thought I see her here Never thought I'd see her again Get.

[David Fuerst]

Sunk comes five years after Berninger's debut solo album, and of course, after many, many releases with his band, the national, including two full length LPs in 2023. And Matt Berninger is on his first solo tour. He's going to be at Webster hall tonight and Rough Trade below tomorrow night. But right here he is here with us in the studio for an All of it listening party. Welcome to all of It.

[Julia Laws]

Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, thanks, David.

[David Fuerst]

So Get Sunk, it's out today. This is your second solo album. Your first was serpentine prison in 2020. Was this always the plan? Did you know there was going to be a second one?

[Julia Laws]

No, not right away. I mean, Serpentine Prison. I mean, I actually didn't even know there was gonna be a first one. Serpentine Prison started out as I wanted to make a covers record, and I'd collected all these songs I wanted to cover. And then I reached out to Booker T. Jones, who produced Stardust, the Willie Ne covers.

[David Fuerst]

The Booker T. Jones?

[Julia Laws]

Yeah. And I had met him because he had me sing on one of his records a long time ago here in New York, and I met him there. But so anyway, Serpentine Prison started out as a covers record in the vibe of Stardust, but then working with Booker and Sean o' Brien. And I had also been writing all these songs with friends from other bands and old friends. And so that record, we just switched to original while we were kind of cooking it. And, you know, Booker really thought we should just focus on the originals, and he was right. So Serpentine Prison was that kind of a thing. But I was really excited to tour that record. And I put together a whole, like, touring band, including Sean o' Brien and everybody who I've been working with ever since, to tour Serpentine Prison. But on came the lockdown and everything. And so there was no, I couldn't tour Serpentine Prison. So. But this band I put together to do it, we were. We would get together in the studio and with masks on and all the. All that, you know, even in the middle, when they had had the Separation Police and everything like that, you know, and we just started cooking Some songs almost right after Serpentine Prison came out, and that was. That started a first batch of things that I eventually abandoned sort of, and then went back and worked on national stuff and then wrote a whole bunch of new stuff in the past two years and then went back to that old stuff. And together all that has become Get Sunk.

[David Fuerst]

Well, you've talked about dealing with depression. During the pandemic in 2023, you spoke with David Letterman about depression and said, there's nothing wrong with water until you're under it. Can you talk about that idea and how perhaps it connects to Get Sunk?

[Julia Laws]

I mean. Well, I've probably used water metaphors a thousand times in songs, and I'll probably come up with a few more during this interview. I mean, water is something. It's almost like fire, earth or wind or air, sky or something that it's so elemental that it just. It can apply to so many things. And I don't know why. I mean, I stare at water a lot. And I used to live by the ocean in Venice for 10 years. And I've always just been, you know, one of those people that just stares into puddles but. And loves the rain and all that kind of stuff. But oddly, you know, I wrote the song that includes the Get Sunk phrase and all that stuff.

[David Fuerst]

This is Times of Difficulty.

[Julia Laws]

Times of Difficulty, which is the last song on the record. I started that song Right. You know, four or five years ago before my depression ever kicked in. And so, I mean. And, you know, I always. I've always been writing about anxiety and depression and all that kind of stuff from the beginning, but I'd never actually experienced the level of depression I did in 2023. Yeah. And that was where I really connected with David Letterman. He had. He's become a fan from a long time ago, and we met and he came up to me, he came to a show, and the first thing he asked, he wanted to talk about was depression because he'd read some things I'd said about it. And then, yeah, he came to my house and we talked about it for a whole bunch. And, yeah, I've been talking about that experience now for. For a couple of years, and I've got no problem talking about it. And it was really enlightening also when you get other people's perspective on how it was for them. But, yeah, so this Get Sunk record really kind of does. It represents sort of like two sides of the thinking, like the before brain and then the after brain of my perspective, I think, of having been where I was Then lost all my confidence and was just consumed by fear and anxiety and overwhelmed by everything. And then climbing out of it. And the climbing out of it was what the last two national records were. And that tour, that was all the process of kind of me coming out of that weird. That weird place. And so get sunk, though, is like even it has kind of perspective on all of that, the whole arc. Yeah, I took some time to go back and try to really think, how did I get to that spot where I fell apart? And then now what do I know about myself? And so I was writing a lot about way back, but through the perspective of having recently lost all my confidence and lost all my talent, lost all my capability of doing anything. So it was weird. When it all goes away, you think it'll never come back. And that was what was really interesting with David, too, and talking to him. And he said to his doctor, he was like, well, it typically lasts about a year. And just having somebody say, well, there is an. You know, it's normal, you know, like a bad flu. Depression can just linger, but it will go away. And he said, that was the one thing I held onto. And it just took time, you know, And I agree with that. Sometimes the. The medications don't do a whole lot. They did a little bit for me. They raised the floor, but it was just a slow process of just re. Acclimating yourself to yourself and what you're supposed to be in the world.

[David Fuerst]

Let's hear a little bit of that song. This is the piece that finishes the album. It's called Times of Difficulty.

[Matt Berninger]

Where is the bread? Where is the butter? Can't she use your beautiful head for me? How quickly we both can't remember.

[Julia Laws]

How.

[Matt Berninger]

Long we been staring out to see in times of heartache get drunk in times of tears, get sunk in times of shame, forget in times of weather, get wet I'll think of you if.

[Julia Laws]

You think of me.

[Matt Berninger]

In times of difficulty.

[David Fuerst]

Great song. Times of Difficulty. And what about that phrase, in times of tears get sunk? Where does that come from?

[Julia Laws]

Well, the times of. Thing is, I saw it was the Kansas state motto is Ad astra per aspera, which is Latin for in times of difficulty, look to the stars. And it goes way back to, you know, the British Air Force has the same phrase per ardua ad aspra, or, you know, different versions of Latin of when things are terrible, you know, look to the stars and I'm a stargazer. And it's, you know, when you contemplate your place, you know, Our place, the Earth's place in the universe. Like, what am I. The time we have that we're all just, you know, stardust, and we're all just matter and. And, you know, trees and our, you know, our things are all just the same components and as our bodies and our, you know, so, so. So that's what I. You know, when I. When I hear that phrase in times of difficulty, look at the stars. Just remember. It's like, remember, remember. You're just one little. Little tiny. Tiny, but very significant piece of a continuum. Right. But then back when Kansas called it that they were choosing to go with the south or the north, and they chose to go with the union, the stars. They wanted to be one of the stars on the flag. So it has a double entendre, even back then. And I really loved that.

[David Fuerst]

We can all get our own ideas from something that we hear.

[Julia Laws]

Kansas had to make a choice, slave states or free states, and they decided to be a free state, and they made it their state motto, and I find that inspiring. And. Yeah, so. Yeah. And so the song Times of Difficulty is about now, but it's kind of. But it's a much more sort of. Kind of a global human thing of trying to understand our place in the universe and why we're here.

[David Fuerst]

You know, I also think of in times of tears get sunk as not avoiding feelings, letting them. Or it almost sounds like you're letting them overwhelm you.

[Julia Laws]

Yeah, but.

[David Fuerst]

But not avoiding them.

[Julia Laws]

Yeah. Times of shame. Forget. I mean, like, all the things it's. Sometimes you. You. You're not gonna be able to solve your own. Your problems. You know, sometimes you have to. You have to just. Just be there with them and, And, And, And. And. And just stay, Stay. Stick. Stick with. Stay around through it. And the clouds will. It'll change.

[David Fuerst]

You know, sometimes talking about music and lyrics can be or could be an exercise in removing the mystery of music, you know, to say, oh, this song is about one specific thing. This is exactly what I was thinking about. As opposed to perhaps it's a jumble of ideas and feelings and images.

[Julia Laws]

So, you know, in Latin and. Yeah, that's the only Latin influence on the whole album. I promise.

[David Fuerst]

When you emerge from a process like this of creating art and you suddenly have to talk about the process, is that a weird moment?

[Julia Laws]

I like it. I mean, because honestly, it's like. I mean, I listen when I think a song is finished, it's not resolved, it's perfectly unresolved. I mean, it's just. It's just blurry enough that it gives you a good sense of truth, whatever that is. But it doesn't connect all the dots. It doesn't fill in every color. And that allows you to sort of become. The song becomes you. And that's all my favorite songs, like R.E.M. songs or just the slipperiness of words, I think are really important. So me talking about these songs, it's still an abstract thing for me a little bit. There isn't an answer. You know, none of the songs are about a thing. You know, they're all. I mean, I would say all the songs are all about the same thing.

[David Fuerst]

I gotta hear another song.

[Julia Laws]

Yeah, go ahead.

[David Fuerst]

We are playing. You should listen. Matt Bergen is Berninger's new album, Get Sunk, and I have to play this one. I love the song no Love. Let's just listen to a clip.

[Matt Berninger]

This place has a sinking feeling the energy's so strange no one can tell what the difference is between spine and fade the music's so unromantic Our eyeballs are red and dry it doesn't have anything to do with anything the vibes all right no love we don't know how would happen Everything we ever wanted but no love maybe after Once in a lifetime we'll figure out what we.

[Julia Laws]

Love.

[Matt Berninger]

We won't have any idea where it's probably somewhere in the parking lot this place has a sinking feeling no.

[David Fuerst]

Love I get chills listening to this song. This is just a great piece. And can you tell us about. Who's the woman singing with you here?

[Julia Laws]

Julia Laws, also known as Ron Boy, sings on eight of the songs on this record. And Julia plays keyboards and plays bass and plays and has been a part of the band for five years. I mean, the four people that are my band are, you know, or five, including Kyle Reznick from the national on brass. But it's Julia Laws and Sean o' Brien. Garrett Lang on bass, and Sterling Laws on drums. And so the five of us have. Yeah. Have been working on these songs for five years. And so this is the first time we get to play them live. It's been great. Yeah.

[David Fuerst]

And you're maintaining these collaborations for the tour?

[Julia Laws]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody. All. All four of those guys. Kyle. Kyle Reznick is. Is not with us right now, but hopefully soon. But, yeah, so. And Julia Romboy is featured on a song called Silver Jeep. And. But. But, yeah, Julia's most of the. The vocals. Other than me. There's a little bit of Kyle Resnick singing and then Hand Habits. Meg Duffy is On a. On a song, too, called Breaking Into Acting. And they're. They. They play guitar all over the record, too. So it was a pretty. It was a collaborative thing, but a pretty small group this time.

[David Fuerst]

A collaborative thing, but a pretty small group. I mean, I gotta ask you about this, too. You're closing some shows with COVID songs. Radiohead's Kid A, Nirvana's All Apologies. These are some iconic selections.

[Julia Laws]

We just did Blue Monday on Wednesday. We called it Blue Wednesday. It was good. It was good.

[David Fuerst]

Does it feel good to include cover songs in the series?

[Julia Laws]

Yeah. I'm trying to cover songs that I shouldn't cover. You know, that there's no way you're gonna be able to. Thankless. You're gonna just be humiliated. I mean, Kid A was really funny. In fact, Kid A, I sent it to the band as a joke. I was like, I had all these songs I wanted to cover, but I sent them 20 songs, and we still had to learn two albums worth of our own songs to do.

[David Fuerst]

You gotta take care of your own songs.

[Julia Laws]

And then I come in the next day for rehearsals before a show, and then all of a sudden, I hear Kid A coming, and, like, then I have to learn how to do it. Cause they. Yeah. Cause they took my. And same thing with Nirvana. And we've been doing Tom Petty. We did Tom Waits, Looking for the Heart of Saturday Night.

[David Fuerst]

Oh, my gosh.

[Julia Laws]

Which is, like, maybe my favorite song of all time. And I'm like, let's do my favorite song ever. And look, it's just. And that was really scary, but it was so fun. And even Blue Monday, you know, I've danced drunk to that song a thousand times. And then I'm like. I'm sitting there reading the lyrics, and I didn't know what 75% of the words were.

[David Fuerst]

This is the way it is with a lot of music, right?

[Julia Laws]

Oh, really? I mean, yeah. And so I'm literally learning the words to All Apologies and, like. And there's a. There's a great line about. You know, about. He says, you know, about his. His nest of salt, you know, And I was like, did I steal, like, the. The whole. The whole. I should live in salt from that song, you know, His. His nest of salt. What the hell does it mean?

[David Fuerst]

You can feel all of your influences.

[Julia Laws]

Well, yeah, and he was. I think he was just trying to rhyme with something with fault, you know? But it's so great. Kurt Cobain, man. His lyrics, I don't even. He's such a great songwriter. What a songwriter. Everything else is, you know, just his songs, his lyrics alone. What an incredible writer. Yeah.

[David Fuerst]

Well, it's so great to get to talk to you today. And are you looking forward to these live shows you're playing tonight at Webster hall tonight?

[Julia Laws]

Yep. I can't wait. I love Webster hall so much. And no, and I love New York. I live close to New York again. So I get to take the train down and yeah, I get to go home tonight. Well, actually, I don't get to go home tonight. Family's coming here. But yeah, I'm having so much fun. Thanks.

[David Fuerst]

And we're gonna go out on one more song. We're gonna hear a little bit of Inland Ocean, the opening track. Matt Berninger playing two shows in Manhattan tonight and tomorrow. You're at Webster hall tonight. Rough trade below tomorrow night. The new album is Get Sunk. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Julia Laws]

Him.

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